Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK207 Jfk

Old 10th Dec 2017, 11:21
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: MC80 Home One type Star Cruiser
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JFK ATC is definitely the unfriendliest and most arrogant ATC in the world, but I disagree that they are the worst. Apart from their non-standard phraseology, they are doing a good job in dealing with a lot of traffic in a congested airspace in my opinion.

They aren't as good as UK or German ATC, but they are absolutely not the worst.

Anyway, this incident isn't due to ATC, but it's another messed up approach by EK pilots. Unfortunately the reasons why these incident keep happening aren't being dealt with. The easiest is to blame the pilots and that is what EK management will do again.
More checking, more punishment, more complicated procedures and policies and even more restrictions in manual flying is what I fear will be the result.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 11:39
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Originally Posted by DuneMentat View Post
They could still have flown the RNAV Visual 13L which has identical track as the VOR approach and it would have given them guidance all the way to the runway.
RNAV Visual to both RWY 13L/R currently not authorized:

NOTAM
(A1655/17) - SPECIAL JOHN F KENNEDY INTL,NEW YORK, NY.
RNAV VISUAL RWY 13L, AMDT 2...
RNAV VISUAL RWY 13R, AMDT 2...
PROCEDURE NA.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 12:13
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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No change, always were back seat quarterbacks😉
Originally Posted by Desert snake View Post
Ask the augmentor
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 12:23
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 478
Very glad that this was not a Big One. There was a EK training video made that showed how to fly RNAV / RNP approaches on to 13L/R @ JFK. Ludicrously complex and involved secondary flight plan swap @ low altitude. I commented on the complexity during RTGS and I may have just talked to the wall. To be frank, life was simpler flying a Carnarsie VOR and look for the lights. JFK ATC? Hmmm...I'll take the 5th on them as I have been the victim of their ill - tempered ire in the past but hardly a factor here.

A combination of EK / Airbus rocket science hard wired to rigid sops with a 'fear' of doing the wrong thing and subsequent tea, no biscuits and lashings of warning letters. Oh and a 12 hour tiring flight, inadequate rest facilities, punishing rosters, jet lag etc... Enough swiss cheese for you?
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 12:32
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Beijing
Posts: 14
I've done the approach on many occasions. The VOR13L can be flown as an RNAV approach in the B777 (LNAV/VNAV). I think form memory the MDA is 800'. From there I disconnect the autopilot and manually fly the approach inside the aqueduct and over the Hotel. Allowing for wind and inertia, it can be a little tricky. My guess is that the PF has disconnected the A/P and increased his/her ROD beyond the normal 3 degrees to the point where a missed approach was the only alternative. I'm pretty certain that if the "John Deer" can do it, the A380 can do it managed.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 12:34
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Red Star
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Originally Posted by donpizmeov View Post
On behalf of the crew I would like to thank everyone for their support.
No one goes to work wanting to make the news. Lots of this type of event in the recent past and spread across the two fleets. Who's head will fall next!
Do you think incidents like these should be swept under the carpet in order not to put stress on the pilots involved? Because you know them?
This is a very factual thread as far as I see it.
I feel for the pilots involved. I’m not EK, but history shows how your company deals with pilots who make mistakes.
Still, something seems to be very wrong in EK these days. Are you so occupied with procedures you have forgotten the basics? Forgotten to look out the windows? Forgotten the distance vs altitude rule?
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 13:39
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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Originally Posted by ibmpilot View Post
RNAV Visual to both RWY 13L/R currently not authorized:
Thanks ibmpilot, that answers that question.

Originally Posted by ruserious View Post
Every time I do JFK in the simulator I get taught something different, very often by an instructor who is confused as to what is the correct procedure for this specific phase. We are so over-endowed with procedures, standard calls, techniques and FCU fiddling that we have turned what is a very simple approach and all other NPA's into an 800 pound gorilla, waiting to fall out of a tree.
Originally Posted by Bus Driver Man View Post
It's not a difficult approach, but you have to know what you are doing. And instead of letting pilots be pilots and letting the pilot decide on how he wants to fly the plane, EK dictates in a long and confusing text how to fly this approach.
Originally Posted by olster View Post
Very glad that this was not a Big One. There was a EK training video made that showed how to fly RNAV / RNP approaches on to 13L/R @ JFK. Ludicrously complex and involved secondary flight plan swap @ low altitude. I commented on the complexity during RTGS and I may have just talked to the wall. To be frank, life was simpler flying a Carnarsie VOR and look for the lights.
It's been a while but I've sure worked for an expat airline where a couple of nationalities seemed to thrive on complex procedures, personal techniques and extra callouts.

The more times you twist a knob or type in the box down low, the better it seemed to the sim gods.

I'm just a country boy tryin' to earn a livin'. Simple procedures are more likely to be accomplished correctly in my opinion.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 13:52
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Planet Earth
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
I take your point..and agree..but in this case, I fail to see what ATC had to do with it.
ATC has everything to do with it. Have a look at the weather conditions on the said day and you will see that RWY 13L/R was not preferred runway.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 14:05
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Originally Posted by Icelanta View Post
Because there is no RNAV Approach for RWY13L.

To be honest JFK is one the absolute worst airports in the Western Hemisphere.
Giving non precision approaches with lead-in tight visual manoevring in marginal weather is an absolute insult to Safety, yet accepted by the FAA and all Operators, including the one I fly for. Luckily, we do train this approach almost every sim.

The whole JFK operation, from approach to taxi into the gate is full of Safety issues, compounded by less than impressive, obnoxious and non standard ATC.
Yeah....ATC and an approach that monkeys can’t program into a computer are the problem. Not poor airmanship, stick and rudder skills, eroding experience and lack of leadership.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 14:26
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
Yeah....ATC and an approach that monkeys can’t program into a computer are the problem. Not poor airmanship, stick and rudder skills, eroding experience and lack of leadership.
Runner, with all due respect, you might be flying into JFK on a daily basis , so it's familiar. Take a step back and put yourself in the shoes of people that flies into JFK twice a year. Most places stick to standard phraseology, so everyone is on the same page. I refer Germany as my favorite, English is their second language, but you never has to ask twice to what they want you to do and if you do, they are so nice and helpful instead of being shouted at.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 15:12
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TSHEKUDU View Post
Runner, with all due respect, you might be flying into JFK on a daily basis , so it's familiar. Take a step back and put yourself in the shoes of people that flies into JFK twice a year. Most places stick to standard phraseology, so everyone is on the same page. I refer Germany as my favorite, English is their second language, but you never has to ask twice to what they want you to do and if you do, they are so nice and helpful instead of being shouted at.
You’re expected to know how to operate a wide body aircraft into busy airpspace at JFK. You’re also expected to know how to fly said aircraft. The same holds true for London, Hong Kong and J’Burg. Blaming ATC for flying an aircraft into the ground is like blaming company policy for leaving a cabin crew in custody because “that’s our policy”.(I mentioned this is a previous post) You guys aren’t even aviators and leaders anymore. You’re self congratulating primadonnas that work for 3rd world wages and pretend to be better than the rest of us. When your faults or the manifestation of your own policies bite you in the ass, you then have temper tantrums and blame everyone else.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 15:18
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Oceanside, CA.
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Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
...You guys aren’t even aviators and leaders anymore. You’re self congratulating primadonnas that work for 3rd world wages and pretend to be better than the rest of us...
And you're a self-righteous narcissist whose own opinion obviously needn't contain facts in order to be aired. Climb back into your better-than-thou hole where it is you wear you anti-CRM blinkers!
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 16:51
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Lady Luck will say enough one of these days
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 17:07
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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Originally Posted by TSHEKUDU View Post
I would like to see airbubba doing what we doing.
I could never do all those near-CFIT terrain escape maneuvers myself.

Originally Posted by TSHEKUDU View Post
To all you guys that shouts at us ( Emirates), I want JFK ATC to take note of this as well as airbubba we fly 141 destinations everyday.

As an Emirates pilot, you are required to be ready to fly at any one of our destinations within 30 min. You as atc is sitting in your tower, so may I please ask that you take this into consideration . So please treat us accordingly.
Next time, tell them folks in the JFK tower that you are Emirates and should be treated accordingly. I'm sure they will give you an appropriate response.

I've been to New York and a couple of other foreign countries as well.

Still, I somehow was expected to be able to shoot the Canarsie approach in widebodies, narrowbodies and bizjets over the years. Even in VFR weather conditions like the other day.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 17:38
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sand land
Posts: 8
Wow. Reading through this forum makes me embarrassed to call myself an airline pilot. You’d see more civilized debate from a bunch of 10 year olds. Every airline has incidents/accidents unfortunately, and every airline has a mix of excellent/average/below average pilots. Furthermore, no one here has any clue as to what exactly happened in this particular incident. Instead of waiting for the facts and then trying to learn from incidents like this some would rather resort to childish bickering and name calling about what part of the world you currently fly in. If you think that you’re such an ace pilot and perfect human being that you could never make a mistake I for one would prefer to never be on your airplane. We are after all only as good as our last flight. Sad and downright idiotic from a group of people who call themselves “professionals”.

Last edited by POTATOW; 10th Dec 2017 at 17:49.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 17:44
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Dee Sea
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Originally Posted by TSHEKUDU View Post
ATC has everything to do with it. Have a look at the weather conditions on the said day and you will see that RWY 13L/R was not preferred runway.
Here are the METARs on either side:
KJFK 050151Z 15010KT 10SM BKN037 BKN250 09/04 A3043 RMK AO2 SLP302 T00940044
KJFK 050051Z 14011KT 10SM OVC035 09/04 A3043 RMK AO2 SLP303 T00940044

What's wrong with 13L in that situation?

JFK was in a standard arrive 13L/22L, depart 13R configuration. Arrivals over CAMRN (south) and LENDY (north/west) get 13L. ROBERs (east) get 22L.

EK207 that day came from the north, so it was assigned 13L.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 17:55
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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Originally Posted by Matvey View Post
What's wrong with 13L in that situation?
Ceiling looks OK, viz looks fine, maybe TSHEKUDU was worried about that dreaded 3 knot crosswind component?
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 18:37
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
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Yet another track plot from ADS-B Exchange:

https://flight-data.adsbexchange.com...ate=2017-12-05

Looks like uncorrected pressure altitudes with less sampling than FR24 or WebTrax but consistent with the other sources.

They did get pretty slow on the pull up it seems. For a CFIT EGWPS warning on the A380 do you pull the nose up to the command bars which gives you stick shaker?
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 18:41
  #59 (permalink)  
QAR
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: AIR
Posts: 97
besides what happened here , what I would like to say is at JFK ATC and operation is proper 3rd world..shambolic.

Flown in to JFK many times and I have not seen a worst airport than this.

This airport is a major accident waiting to happen due to the arrogance and incompetence of their 3rd world ATC.
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 18:53
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 416
Without doubt destination familiarity and recency make a huge difference.
Presumably that is why many carriers have either specific crews for specific regions or as with some of the more interesting destinations, crews specifically picked and trained for a particular destination. Madeira being a case in point.
Most operators have crews that have done their apprenticeship and first commands on narrow bodies and have 10s of thousands of combined hours on the flight deck.
This is not the situation in EK where there are no narrow body aircraft. For many captains a B777 or A380 is their first command. This combined with an equivalent lack of hours in the RHS must make the cheese holes bigger.
This is NOT blaming the guys in the seats, the lure of big white shiny jet as a first command is a big draw (for some).
Maybe the introduction of, or implementation of regional specialised crews, based on ability, not seniority just may go a long way to reducing or stopping the repetition of these close calls.

ps. I do not think ATC were a big factor in this, however, JFK is standard with JFK and nowhere else. I have also been nearly seriously screwed by them in bad weather.
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