EK207 Jfk
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The point was regarding additional lateral & vertical FMS guidance provided after DMYHL; this should be provided to crew, and it is. If they don't want to use it, that's on them.
I agree with you, JFK ATC treat the 'VOR or GPS' approaches for 13 L/R as cloudbreak procedures, and will likely clear you down to 1,000ft with a low cloudbase. CDA to DMYHL isn't desired. Because ATC intent on this particular approach is to have aircraft below cloud before/at missed approach point.
Last edited by 777-Up; 13th Jan 2018 at 09:23.
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Pilotguy1222, if you read my prior comment, I'm not referring to the vertical profile that GETS you to DMYHL.
The point was regarding additional lateral & vertical FMS guidance provided after DMYHL; this should be provided to crew, and it is. If they don't want to use it, that's on them.
I agree with you, JFK ATC treat the 'VOR or GPS' approaches for 13 L/R as cloudbreak procedures, and will likely clear you down to 1,000ft with a low cloudbase. CDA to DMYHL isn't desired.
The point was regarding additional lateral & vertical FMS guidance provided after DMYHL; this should be provided to crew, and it is. If they don't want to use it, that's on them.
I agree with you, JFK ATC treat the 'VOR or GPS' approaches for 13 L/R as cloudbreak procedures, and will likely clear you down to 1,000ft with a low cloudbase. CDA to DMYHL isn't desired.
I only read pprune every few days, and I clearly missed a page or 2 on this thread.
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No worries, mate. We're all after the same thing. Safe ops as much as possible on a challenging approach with an A380 machine that very sadly forces crew to be in V/S or FPA, on all approach RF-legs, no matter where in the world it is. Nice (France) /A380 is another awful design combo.
Last edited by 777-Up; 13th Jan 2018 at 09:38.
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No worries, mate. We're all after the same thing. Safe ops as much as possible on a challenging approach with an A380 machine that very sadly forces crew to be in V/S or FPA, on all approach RF-legs, no matter where in the world it is. Nice (France) /A380 is another awful design combo.
How about disconnecting everything 14 miles out and just hand fly a SIMPLE approach which you only do in cavok conditions anyway?!
Amazing.
What bringbackthe80s says!
If you must, use the A/P to the VOR and then look out the the window and fly it!. It is not rocket science.
Re the A380, don't use the automatics for what they weren't designed for.
If you must, use the A/P to the VOR and then look out the the window and fly it!. It is not rocket science.
Re the A380, don't use the automatics for what they weren't designed for.
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How about disconnecting everything 14 miles out and just hand fly a SIMPLE approach which you only do in cavok conditions anyway?!
Surreal?
Try EK .... and i am certainly not joking.
The proficiency state in flying with eye and hand here is at the lowest i have ever seen. Maybe only topped by the first week of initial flight training of 350 hopeful and virgin candidates when i was 16.
Again, i am not joking.
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And what if exactly this kind of prospect provokes high blood pressure, sweating and anxiety in more than half of a certain company's pilots?
Surreal?
Try EK .... and i am certainly not joking.
The proficiency state in flying with eye and hand here is at the lowest i have ever seen. Maybe only topped by the first week of initial flight training of 350 hopeful and virgin candidates when i was 16.
Again, i am not joking.
Surreal?
Try EK .... and i am certainly not joking.
The proficiency state in flying with eye and hand here is at the lowest i have ever seen. Maybe only topped by the first week of initial flight training of 350 hopeful and virgin candidates when i was 16.
Again, i am not joking.
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And what if exactly this kind of prospect provokes high blood pressure, sweating and anxiety in more than half of a certain company's pilots?
Surreal?
Try EK .... and i am certainly not joking.
The proficiency state in flying with eye and hand here is at the lowest i have ever seen. Maybe only topped by the first week of initial flight training of 350 hopeful and virgin candidates when i was 16.
Again, i am not joking.
Surreal?
Try EK .... and i am certainly not joking.
The proficiency state in flying with eye and hand here is at the lowest i have ever seen. Maybe only topped by the first week of initial flight training of 350 hopeful and virgin candidates when i was 16.
Again, i am not joking.
Stop for one second, and try to imagine someone from outside thinking a 380 CAPTAIN sweating when hand flying a simple approach in cavok conditions in a perfectly serviceable aircraft?!?!?!?
Again, amazing.
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If yes; while you, personally may wish to go back to the 1950's on approach, you might also consider when 'hand flying' why you're in favour of FMC/FMS backup for safety, pilot monitoring during departures, but not during arrivals?
It's not very becoming to publicly chastise those pilots who may choose to use all the tools available to them, including outside visual references & inside guidance as a backup.
Last edited by 777-Up; 14th Jan 2018 at 05:39.
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777 up, now everything is clear, you are 100% a magenta line pilot, first because you’re obsessed with fmc, fix etc etc, second because you mention 1950’s approaches like if it’s something jurassic.
Let me explain you where is the issue..
There’s nothing bad in using EVERY aid we have for takeoff, approach, landing, circling and so on, especially when weather is marginal, as long as it’s something helpful, it’s well prepared and programmed long before and provided we make good use of it, not completely rely on it, that’s why when we trained ( a few years ago ) on maybe an md80 or 737 classic, we did hundreds of engine out, circling and visual without any extra help, without your beloved fmc and other stuff just to learn how to FLY an airplane then, as technology stepped up, we received all those amazing tools as an extra help, not as a substitute for our skills.
Contrary to what you said, I am in total favour of extra help tools when needed, like the hud that I’ve been using since 2007 but trust me, when it comes to fly a visual approach anywhere in the world, the last thing I want is to keep my head inside, especially when outside is cavok, even if I have 3 runways in front of me unless you find it difficult to recognize left center or right.
Instructors tried to teach how to use an extra help, not to be lost without it.
Let me explain you where is the issue..
There’s nothing bad in using EVERY aid we have for takeoff, approach, landing, circling and so on, especially when weather is marginal, as long as it’s something helpful, it’s well prepared and programmed long before and provided we make good use of it, not completely rely on it, that’s why when we trained ( a few years ago ) on maybe an md80 or 737 classic, we did hundreds of engine out, circling and visual without any extra help, without your beloved fmc and other stuff just to learn how to FLY an airplane then, as technology stepped up, we received all those amazing tools as an extra help, not as a substitute for our skills.
Contrary to what you said, I am in total favour of extra help tools when needed, like the hud that I’ve been using since 2007 but trust me, when it comes to fly a visual approach anywhere in the world, the last thing I want is to keep my head inside, especially when outside is cavok, even if I have 3 runways in front of me unless you find it difficult to recognize left center or right.
Instructors tried to teach how to use an extra help, not to be lost without it.
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Jack330; " I am in total favour of extra help tools when needed".
Glad to hear it. We agree.
Now, please read what I said again, about the benefits of using outside references as primary on approaches of this nature.
P.S. My ND line is 'green', not 'magenta'. Not sure what you're flying...
Glad to hear it. We agree.
Now, please read what I said again, about the benefits of using outside references as primary on approaches of this nature.
P.S. My ND line is 'green', not 'magenta'. Not sure what you're flying...
Last edited by 777-Up; 15th Jan 2018 at 14:18.
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It simply and honestly scares the bejesus out of me if pilots start using the word "outside reference".
I don't know if you remember, but the stuff is actually happening and hurting outside, not referencing.
God only knows who brought that cr@p up, but we can read who uses it ....
The industry is propagating "best use of equipment", ok. But this should include two things:
- The human being who sometimes works better than any electronic gimmick
- Switching these gimmicks off when they distract more than help.
But once again: "outside reference" .... please!!
I don't know if you remember, but the stuff is actually happening and hurting outside, not referencing.
God only knows who brought that cr@p up, but we can read who uses it ....
The industry is propagating "best use of equipment", ok. But this should include two things:
- The human being who sometimes works better than any electronic gimmick
- Switching these gimmicks off when they distract more than help.
But once again: "outside reference" .... please!!
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alwayzinit, that is what I thought reading this thread quietly in the last weeks. There are many places that require operation of the aircraft manually, with no programmed aid. CFU, SMI, HER 09, TVI, BVC are just some that jump to my mind.
Interestingly I have witnessed the same phenomenon at a Canadian operator, that urged their crews to fly everything in LNAV VNAV. The outcome was as expected, if the system had a problem, or just plain finger trouble, some crews were not able to revert to basic modes/flying.
I think the root cause is wrong direction in company culture, that was established with the aim to mitigate the perceptually slightly higher risk during visual and/or R/D approaches. Now that culture is backfiring. I understand that flying a visual or raw data app. after a 14 h flight is not what you are all looking forward to, but there are many opportunities within most ME route structures that enable the same.
But after all it is a company culture problem that needs to be addressed, there are enugh
researches around to proof that training basic skills frequently are a must. And I am not taking about the SIM, but the nice,quiet, sunny afternoon into any place.
Interestingly I have witnessed the same phenomenon at a Canadian operator, that urged their crews to fly everything in LNAV VNAV. The outcome was as expected, if the system had a problem, or just plain finger trouble, some crews were not able to revert to basic modes/flying.
I think the root cause is wrong direction in company culture, that was established with the aim to mitigate the perceptually slightly higher risk during visual and/or R/D approaches. Now that culture is backfiring. I understand that flying a visual or raw data app. after a 14 h flight is not what you are all looking forward to, but there are many opportunities within most ME route structures that enable the same.
But after all it is a company culture problem that needs to be addressed, there are enugh
researches around to proof that training basic skills frequently are a must. And I am not taking about the SIM, but the nice,quiet, sunny afternoon into any place.
Last edited by repulo; 14th Jan 2018 at 09:30.
Back in the day ( sorry folks, old fogey alert) we used to operate long haul 747s into the old Kai Tak and normally managed to turn the aircraft and land on the concrete while circumventing Mrs Wong’s washing line. While we were obviously all aces it really wasn’t that difficult. Just saying.
short flights long nights
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Glofish; Re: "But once again: "outside reference" .... please!!"
Hey Glofish, I see you like bold text. It's a definition from a couple of small aviation organizations you might have heard of. They're called 'EASA' & 'FAA'. GCAA same thing; https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Visual_References
You might find yourself dealing with them, if you're perhaps unaware...
Hey Glofish, I see you like bold text. It's a definition from a couple of small aviation organizations you might have heard of. They're called 'EASA' & 'FAA'. GCAA same thing; https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Visual_References
You might find yourself dealing with them, if you're perhaps unaware...
Last edited by 777-Up; 15th Jan 2018 at 15:00.