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EK 40k $ bond for Captain Upgrades

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK 40k $ bond for Captain Upgrades

Old 2nd Dec 2017, 00:34
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: MC80 Home One type Star Cruiser
Posts: 148
Originally Posted by jockey69 View Post
5 REASONS to stay at EK: 1) it is EK 2)A380s/B777s(+B787s) LHS/RHS HOURS 3)ROUTES/DESTINATIONS 4)PAY/PERKS 5)DUBAI look around...you will realise you are in paradise
You don't work at Emirates, do you?
All the things FlexOnTheBeach mentioned are true:
The toxic environment, the punitive culture of management, the knee-jerk reactions ("oh it was the PM's fault, let's beat all PMs with a stick and employ eye-tracking technology in the simulators, that will solve it"), and the constantly changing rules affecting our careers - all these things make the place ridiculous to work for. Add to that the coming VAT, no pay increase the last few years, no "profit-sharing" despite making profits - what incentive is there to stick around? A bond won't work, and now you just showed the pilot group that management does not care about improving or correcting the issues at hand, but will instead PUNISH you further for leaving.
Plus:
-A deterioration of flying skills because of a too restrictive automation policy and previously mentioned punitive culture.
-Training focussed on checking.

If you can live with it, if your reasons outweigh those facts or if it's worse at your current/previous employer, than yes, EK could be a great place to work as pilot.
But all the above mentioned issues created by management are now backfiring. They created the, what you call, "desperate times desperate measures", not the pilots.
It's just like Ryanair: If you don't treat your pilots well, they will leave once there are other option.

Was flying for EK a waste of time? Absolutely not. I gained valuable experience and got a very good salary on top of it. But just like many others, I couldn't tolerate it anymore.
Bus Driver Man is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 00:58
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Umm Ramool Flying Club: Proud Member
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by jockey69 View Post
EK is forced to tie you down bcos you are scooting away with some seriously super heavy stripes/ratings."desperate times desperate measures"
Jockey... the question you should be asking is why people with four stripes and super heavy ratings are scooting.

To borrow your overused cliche, ĎDesperate times call for desperate measures.í So too, desperate and highly expirenced skippers leave bleak conditions for more fertile grounds...

Each year when birds migrate south to escape the winter, do you also blame the birds for migrating to escape those frozen and inhospitable conditions?

FP
FUSE PLUG is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 02:41
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: UAE
Posts: 26
Eye tracking technology!

If ďtrainersĒ were tracking where hands were, EK 521 would not have happened.

Perhaps a ď trainer on this site, could bring it up with the B777 training manager. ( oh, but after the sevens are over, of course)
I Claudius is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 04:19
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 419
Originally Posted by jockey69 View Post
5 REASONS to stay at EK: 1) it is EK 2)A380s/B777s(+B787s) LHS/RHS HOURS 3)ROUTES/DESTINATIONS 4)PAY/PERKS 5)DUBAI look around...you will realise you are in paradise
Jockey69, judging by the rest of your posts that are in the 'Wannabies' section from only the last couple of years, you are a young cadet/trainee with little experience of the industry and its tactics. When you have a family and see them less and less each month, and the shiny jet syndrome has worn away then you may understand a little better.
felixthecat is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 05:01
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Posts: 211
In all of this, people seem to be missing the biggest issue...the bond contract says that should you fail to complete the course FOR ANY REASON (excepting medical or redundancy) you are liable to pay back the 40k.

That means that should you fail the course, or should, for example, fleet decide at the end of your course that you've had more sick days than you should have, they'll simply turn around, kick you back to the Rhs and take your 40k. Fail twice, and as the document is written, you'll physically repay them 80k.

What reasonable, independent appeal process is there? And by extension then, what is to stop them failing every upgrade on the first go and only letting people through on the second go...thereby making sure they get their 40k off each and every NaC candidate?

I used to be glad that despite all the crap here, I'd be able to upgrade here, get some good money together and leave with a strong cv. No more. I will not start any course where the financial penalty is so great and the appeals process is so tenuous. Everybody knows someone who has been kicked off a course for questionable reasons.

I am really disappointed but I will turn down any command course in this airline until this absurd clause is removed.
170to5 is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 06:10
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,042
I haven't read the contract, but the way i see it, you don't have to repay anything. You simply have to stay the amount of time stipulated, or pay a pro rate of the mentioned sum. So even if you fail the upgrade, no payment or loss of salary involved, unless you leave before time.

I don't particularly such tactics, they only blatantly expose the incompetence of the management, however let's keep it in a reasonable context. Even DECs were bonded since 2003 and no one complained there!
glofish is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 07:15
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
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Originally Posted by glofish View Post
Even DECs were bonded since 2003 and no one complained there!
DECs were bonded, but that was for a type rating and if they didn't succeed they were free to leave unencumbered.
felixthecat is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 07:38
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
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Originally Posted by glofish View Post
I haven't read the contract, but the way i see it, you don't have to repay anything. You simply have to stay the amount of time stipulated, or pay a pro rate of the mentioned sum. So even if you fail the upgrade, no payment or loss of salary involved, unless you leave before time.

I don't particularly such tactics, they only blatantly expose the incompetence of the management, however let's keep it in a reasonable context. Even DECs were bonded since 2003 and no one complained there!
Glo

See your inbox!

170
170to5 is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 07:53
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Above the clouds
Age: 34
Posts: 135
I dont understand why people are making a fuss over bonding. Its common place in most companies to tie their employees down in order to recoup the outlay for training. In my company it is 3 years F/O and 1.5 years Cpt, and thatīs in Europe......
VarigMD11 is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 07:54
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,042
I stand corrected. Truly unbelievable.
So it displays not only incompetence, but borderline malice!
glofish is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 07:59
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
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170to5
Could you pm it to my inbox please. I'm interested to read the detail
felixthecat is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 08:08
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Posts: 211
Varig

But what if you fail the upgrade, do they physically charge you for the course in your company?

170
170to5 is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 08:53
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 232
My question has been answered guys thanks .. so as I see it, if you are returned to the Rhs,for any reason, you will be bonded for a job that you already have ?? The only difference is the license will be endorsed as P1 but you canít operate as commander ...
Jack D is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 10:41
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 2,876
The P2 rating no longer exists and is not an option once you get the new licence anyway.
donpizmeov is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 14:30
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 232
Youíre correct, my mistake, but you cant build CM1 time from the rhs unless you are providing training . essentially it would be an extension of the F/o bond, you will sit in the rhs be paid as an f/o and still be subject to the upgrade bond, have I got that right ?
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Old 2nd Dec 2017, 14:40
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Attic
Age: 55
Posts: 107
Can we please stop with the comparisons with EK and The Majors? There is no comparison unless one likes to be treated like crap with veiled threats and substandard pay.
A Delta narrowbody Captain makes more than a Emirates widebody captain and works considerably less in far more humane conditions. Full stop and end of discussion. I know I have worked at both. How many of the posters here can say the same? Some I know but certainly not even close to half.
We can argue about T and Cs hourly rates days off anything at all but the big takeaway is at the end of each month I have more money in my pocket and I feel a whole helluva lot better than I did at EK. No question and itís not even close.
This just makes me think when pilots try and defend Emirates what are they trying to defend and why the defense? There is no comparison!
Neptune Spear is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 14:52
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingston upon Thames
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Originally Posted by Neptune Spear View Post
Can we please stop with the comparisons with EK and The Majors? There is no comparison unless one likes to be treated like crap with veiled threats and substandard pay.
A Delta narrowbody Captain makes more than a Emirates widebody captain and works considerably less in far more humane conditions. Full stop and end of discussion. I know I have worked at both. How many of the posters here can say the same? Some I know but certainly not even close to half.
We can argue about T and Cs hourly rates days off anything at all but the big takeaway is at the end of each month I have more money in my pocket and I feel a whole helluva lot better than I did at EK. No question and itís not even close.
This just makes me think when pilots try and defend Emirates what are they trying to defend and why the defense? There is no comparison!
easy answer to your question:
1) Costa trolls
2) like you mentioned, people who do not have that experience. and, among those, the young and single ones.

They defend it because they like it and it gives them food.

If I could I'd quit aviation altogether.
since I can't, if I could I'd accept any job at Delta. even bag handler.
since I can't.....
in EK I stay, and I love it. wait... No.

Regards,

Kippa
KippaLippa is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 15:27
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,007
Originally Posted by Neptune Spear View Post
Can we please stop with the comparisons with EK and The Majors? There is no comparison unless one likes to be treated like crap with veiled threats and substandard pay.
A Delta narrowbody Captain makes more than a Emirates widebody captain and works considerably less in far more humane conditions. Full stop and end of discussion. I know I have worked at both. How many of the posters here can say the same? Some I know but certainly not even close to half.
We can argue about T and Cs hourly rates days off anything at all but the big takeaway is at the end of each month I have more money in my pocket and I feel a whole helluva lot better than I did at EK. No question and itís not even close.
This just makes me think when pilots try and defend Emirates what are they trying to defend and why the defense? There is no comparison!
Neptune

Iím a 10+ yr Capt on the tractor

Salary 43100
Flying /prod low avg 6000
Housing 16,100
Prov 6500
Per diem low avg 2000
Edu support for 2 kids 12,100 (I include this because I can use that to send them to any private boarding school in world). I do not need to live in a high Tax municipality in the US in order to get into a good school district
Medical/ dental essentially very low cost - both kids braces paid for by Co.
Transport to from work free.

So in total

85,800 = $23,315 essentially Tax free. I pay some but not much so you need to multiply that number by 1.2 to account for taxes and thatís being conservative.

Thatís gross of 27,978 or $335,736pa

If you have a spouse that works you would also need to add the tax advantages to the overall picture as it would be an immediate hit to the familyís bottom line should her line of work be transferred to a taxed state. So if both parents working the tax advantages need to be taken into account - they are quite significant.

No one arguing about the treatment - itís a pure disgrace here - but when wife and kids are happy and you add up the numbers it becomes less easy for some to justify the move while kids are thriving in school, sports & social.

The problem is the Co knows it - and itís the handcuffs they use.

I am not for a minute suggesting anyone stay but letís be objective when we are talking numbers.

I suspect Delta is higher than above but itís not a no brainer even if you take away the Edu support itís still $288,391 here - gross.

Above open to correction - and yes Dubai is expensive for staples.

Go ahead with you rates.
fliion is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 16:53
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: just around the corner
Posts: 125
Filion.

I have to disagree

I am hearing where you are comming from. However. Your figures regarding housing cannot be compared. If you think paying 16100 aed to love in a concrete block in the desert is appropriate then that's cool. As for education. At this moment I'm not too sure yet. I have 1 child just started but I'm not sure we get same international standard as we would in some other place in the world. Just my two cents and not arguing against you.

I wonder what is worth being in the desert tho under present conditions.

At the moment there are so many contracts out there that pay more. It may mean being away from family for 2 weeks but the end game is more in the pocket I would say.

Respect for all. Fly safe folks. Just opening dialogue
You rock is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2017, 16:57
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: just around the corner
Posts: 125
At the end of the day. If your earning 23k each month as a 10 year captain at emirates then if your spending 20k just being here and putting up with it all then why are we here.
You rock is offline  

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