EK 40k $ bond for Captain Upgrades
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That I find hard to believe, possibly if people don't add in the housing allowance. In Delta your salary will have to cover your housing, so for a fair comparison you need to add it in, else you are comparing apples to pears. Also, are you comparing take home in Delta to take home in Emirates or gross pre-tax.
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felixthecat
Just ignore him. He's often on here extolling the virtues of the big US carriers and seems to know a huge a amount about EK & Dubai despite not working or living here. His posts would have more credibility were those two facts somewhat different.
Having said that, I have no doubt in my mind that those fortunate to be employed by the 'Majors' and who are fairly senior, with the right base and right aircraft have an easier and more 'protected' lifestyle than many in EK. The trips on the 380 are getting harder with busier rosters now and the Company will dismiss you for screwing up. No amount of emails or video about disregarding the fear factor can overcome the reality. Words are cheap, action is what's important. If the Moscow crew are still here by Christmas, then and only then, will the Companies promise hold true and pilots start believing the rhetoric.
As for the US command courses, Airbubba is correct but it comes with naivety. The main US airlines are heavily Union protected and the upgrade courses are rarely more then a handling exercise in the left seat. They are not as comprehensive as those like Qantas, BA or EK's. There are individuals who will get through by nothing more than luck and seniority. If he thinks that's acceptable, then his view on command standards is very different to many others I'm sure.
So too I'd imagine from the victims of the Colgan air crash that had a below average performing F/O promoted to Captain without the correct filters and checks.
Harry
Just ignore him. He's often on here extolling the virtues of the big US carriers and seems to know a huge a amount about EK & Dubai despite not working or living here. His posts would have more credibility were those two facts somewhat different.
Having said that, I have no doubt in my mind that those fortunate to be employed by the 'Majors' and who are fairly senior, with the right base and right aircraft have an easier and more 'protected' lifestyle than many in EK. The trips on the 380 are getting harder with busier rosters now and the Company will dismiss you for screwing up. No amount of emails or video about disregarding the fear factor can overcome the reality. Words are cheap, action is what's important. If the Moscow crew are still here by Christmas, then and only then, will the Companies promise hold true and pilots start believing the rhetoric.
As for the US command courses, Airbubba is correct but it comes with naivety. The main US airlines are heavily Union protected and the upgrade courses are rarely more then a handling exercise in the left seat. They are not as comprehensive as those like Qantas, BA or EK's. There are individuals who will get through by nothing more than luck and seniority. If he thinks that's acceptable, then his view on command standards is very different to many others I'm sure.
So too I'd imagine from the victims of the Colgan air crash that had a below average performing F/O promoted to Captain without the correct filters and checks.
Harry
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During the heady days when EK was hiring DECs, our recruitment team was astonished by the abilities of the everyone-passes-the-command-course-on-first-try folks from Murka.
Two reside in memory. The first, asked to do a visual circuit from 12R, took off, turned south, became disoriented, and never turned again. The second, asked to track to the Sharjah VOR using only the RMI needles, flew to Sharjah very well. Arriving there, as the needles laid off to the left, he aggresively tracked them in ever tightening left 360 turns until the result was aerobatic.
I'm sure they do pass on the first try, but what can it possibly mean to say so if you have no standards whatsoever.
Two reside in memory. The first, asked to do a visual circuit from 12R, took off, turned south, became disoriented, and never turned again. The second, asked to track to the Sharjah VOR using only the RMI needles, flew to Sharjah very well. Arriving there, as the needles laid off to the left, he aggresively tracked them in ever tightening left 360 turns until the result was aerobatic.
I'm sure they do pass on the first try, but what can it possibly mean to say so if you have no standards whatsoever.
Harry
Both Moscow guys are definitely no longer with Emirates 
If the Moscow crew are still here by Christmas, then and only then, will the Companies promise hold true and pilots start believing the rhetoric.
they just get dumber as they go....
Wait til they make it retroactive to all captains, they can do that btw, the contract ain't worth wiping your ass with in that part of the world. They can do what they want and they have the money to wait you out if you try to go the legal route.
Have to love the comment about US line training there not to destroy confidence. We're talking about EK here. The apparent methodology at EK is to get you second guessing yourself and have that fear in the back of your mind. There's the saying 'you're only as good as your last flight'. They could give two craps if you've served them loyally for years, one screw up* and you're done. (And by screw up* it doesn't even have to be a mistake on your side, it can be on the say so of some passenger is who is mildly related to the maid of someone with some wasta) I know a guy who got canned and the worst part was he was on his CRC break at the time of the alleged 'offence'.... too bad so sad he was the marked man and out he went.
it's a bit hard to have confidence when you know that the company only backs captain's authority over the aircraft so long as it's making them money and they agree with said authority decisions.
I since pulled the pin and do not miss it one bit, only the friends I left. I wouldn't work for them again if they offered me a million bucks, some things are worth more than your health and dignity.
This latest move sure doesn't make them look good. And as for the 'youngsters'.... most of them are up to their eyeballs in P2F debt, can they really throw another 40k on top of it (as well as whatever the initial bond is?)
It's not the worst deal I've seen.
Have to love the comment about US line training there not to destroy confidence. We're talking about EK here. The apparent methodology at EK is to get you second guessing yourself and have that fear in the back of your mind. There's the saying 'you're only as good as your last flight'. They could give two craps if you've served them loyally for years, one screw up* and you're done. (And by screw up* it doesn't even have to be a mistake on your side, it can be on the say so of some passenger is who is mildly related to the maid of someone with some wasta) I know a guy who got canned and the worst part was he was on his CRC break at the time of the alleged 'offence'.... too bad so sad he was the marked man and out he went.
it's a bit hard to have confidence when you know that the company only backs captain's authority over the aircraft so long as it's making them money and they agree with said authority decisions.
I since pulled the pin and do not miss it one bit, only the friends I left. I wouldn't work for them again if they offered me a million bucks, some things are worth more than your health and dignity.
This latest move sure doesn't make them look good. And as for the 'youngsters'.... most of them are up to their eyeballs in P2F debt, can they really throw another 40k on top of it (as well as whatever the initial bond is?)
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I do know that EK has only landed 72 new joiners for the 380 this year. About 25% of what they were looking for.
It is possible for a 5 year Delta FO to make EK CA money AFTER taxes, but they would need a maximum line and at least 1 green slip trip per month. That means your are working the same days off as at EK.
I used to promote and defend EK. Now I am disenchanted, at best. No good news next April will have me sticking my foot out the door.
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pilotguy1222
I doubt you'd be alone. Sadly, some of our senior managers think the 'package' is acceptable and that other 'unknown reasons' are to blame, although they can't seem to quite work out what.....hence the fleet meetings at the RTGS days!
I doubt you'd be alone. Sadly, some of our senior managers think the 'package' is acceptable and that other 'unknown reasons' are to blame, although they can't seem to quite work out what.....hence the fleet meetings at the RTGS days!
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https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/...elta_air_lines
I believe these rates go up every couple of years over the life of the current pilot contract. There are also trip rigs and duty rigs so you get paid for credit hours that you don't actually fly. And when you upgrade, your longevity in position still goes from your date of hire. Does it work that way at EK? At some overseas carriers you start off on first year captain's pay when you upgrade from FO.
More PPRuNe expat discussion of current American wages here:
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...-000-year.html
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Have to love the comment about US line training there not to destroy confidence. We're talking about EK here. The apparent methodology at EK is to get you second guessing yourself and have that fear in the back of your mind. There's the saying 'you're only as good as your last flight'. They could give two craps if you've served them loyally for years, one screw up* and you're done. (And by screw up* it doesn't even have to be a mistake on your side, it can be on the say so of some passenger is who is mildly related to the maid of someone with some wasta) I know a guy who got canned and the worst part was he was on his CRC break at the time of the alleged 'offence'.... too bad so sad he was the marked man and out he went.
it's a bit hard to have confidence when you know that the company only backs captain's authority over the aircraft so long as it's making them money and they agree with said authority decisions.
it's a bit hard to have confidence when you know that the company only backs captain's authority over the aircraft so long as it's making them money and they agree with said authority decisions.
I will agree that American training has been dumbed down in the past couple of decades in part to embrace a broader, more inclusive and diverse demographic.
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So let me get this straight. Captains at EK leave so frequently that the company is placing a training bond... on CAPTAINS! Don’t you see why EK is a joke around the globe? Why would a captain even need a bond in the first place? Why would he/she ever want to leave a high paying and prestigious job flying wide-body aircraft? We all know the answer to that rhetorical question. Which is now why you have a training bond.
What I can’t seem to figure out though, is how does this thread drift to besmirching American pilots? How is it that you guys manage to, once again, reduce yourselves to petty bickering about made up operational inequities in Americans? To disparage the flying abilities of an entire nationality is ignorant.
Former ek skipper here. Now 3 years at United. I have insight on both sides discussed and I want to comment.
The truth: I currently fly international, and the captains I share the cockpit with are just as skilled as the ones I worked with when I was at EK. The vast majority here at UA are fantastic and professional aviators. They earned their seat through study, through seniority and their command ability is at just as high of a standard as you have at EK. Training here is not a walk in the park and guys do get caught up from time to time. American pilots are your peers, and deserve just as much respect as you would give to anyone else. They also make more money than you... and have more time off... and don’t need a training bond. Which leads me to believe that maybe you guys are just a bit jealous and resort to insulting their flying skills as a defense mechanism.
Speaking of money... since that was discussed in earlier posts, this is where I stand in case anyone is curious.
In terms of pure take home pay, the money I now make as an FO is not much less as my EK Capt. salary. The big difference is that I make that money while working far fewer days. I get 5 to 6 more days off per month than I did while at EK. Thats an extra 60 days (2 months) off per year! If you figure $ per day worked, I make more than an EK skipper on the days when I have to work. No question. The way I see it, I was flying 2 extra months per year for free when I was in Dubai.
I also get...
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....
The down side: I have to drive myself to work. I also have to pay for my own house, utilities, and pay taxes but, it’s so worth the trade off for all of the other things listed above.
If I’ve come off as a braggart that was not my intent. Just wanted to give my viewpoint since mud was being slung and I have seen both sides... I miss you guys.
Keep rowing boys.
What I can’t seem to figure out though, is how does this thread drift to besmirching American pilots? How is it that you guys manage to, once again, reduce yourselves to petty bickering about made up operational inequities in Americans? To disparage the flying abilities of an entire nationality is ignorant.
Former ek skipper here. Now 3 years at United. I have insight on both sides discussed and I want to comment.
The truth: I currently fly international, and the captains I share the cockpit with are just as skilled as the ones I worked with when I was at EK. The vast majority here at UA are fantastic and professional aviators. They earned their seat through study, through seniority and their command ability is at just as high of a standard as you have at EK. Training here is not a walk in the park and guys do get caught up from time to time. American pilots are your peers, and deserve just as much respect as you would give to anyone else. They also make more money than you... and have more time off... and don’t need a training bond. Which leads me to believe that maybe you guys are just a bit jealous and resort to insulting their flying skills as a defense mechanism.
Speaking of money... since that was discussed in earlier posts, this is where I stand in case anyone is curious.
In terms of pure take home pay, the money I now make as an FO is not much less as my EK Capt. salary. The big difference is that I make that money while working far fewer days. I get 5 to 6 more days off per month than I did while at EK. Thats an extra 60 days (2 months) off per year! If you figure $ per day worked, I make more than an EK skipper on the days when I have to work. No question. The way I see it, I was flying 2 extra months per year for free when I was in Dubai.
I also get...
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....
The down side: I have to drive myself to work. I also have to pay for my own house, utilities, and pay taxes but, it’s so worth the trade off for all of the other things listed above.
If I’ve come off as a braggart that was not my intent. Just wanted to give my viewpoint since mud was being slung and I have seen both sides... I miss you guys.
Keep rowing boys.
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Worth pointing out that nationality should and has little to do with the debate about newly promoted EK skippers and any bond liability. We keep reading about the pending pilot shortage and that pilots will be in demand. Well they are now very much in demand in the UAE! Bonding new skippers is clear evidence of this and also evidence that EK has now sunk to the embarrassing depths of being a 'training airline'. No disrespect to those who make it though the training and especially as an F/O, as you will have the privilege to fly with some of the best in the industry. For the F/Os joining with the right attitude, you can emerge to be a cut above the rest when it comes to applying for your next job. Having EK on your CV does (still) carry a lot of weight, which you can use to your advantage when the time comes. Soak up the useful tips and advice from those you fly with in the future and discard those snippets that you feel to be less useful (which happens rarely I hasten to add) but please just take any advice in good heart. Anything we pass on is for your benefit and not ours!
Back to the matter in hand, it is just sad that we have sunk to the level of being a training airline but not surprising given the lack of any succinct and clear vision, in addition to any degree of sensible leadership from those at the top. The same accountable individuals have proven to be utterly dysfunctional and arrogant, which is ultimately encapsulated with an overriding degree of weakness with how they convey their guidance and wisdom to those on the shop floor.
Come here if you want to build experience and it is a great place for that but the days of joining for a command and a career are well and truly over. I don't have an axe to grind but this is the cold reality as I see it! You will build far more experience as a person and also as a pilot in the Middle East than you would flying around and living in your own 'back yard' but only you can evaluate if it is a step worth taking.
Back to the matter in hand, it is just sad that we have sunk to the level of being a training airline but not surprising given the lack of any succinct and clear vision, in addition to any degree of sensible leadership from those at the top. The same accountable individuals have proven to be utterly dysfunctional and arrogant, which is ultimately encapsulated with an overriding degree of weakness with how they convey their guidance and wisdom to those on the shop floor.
Come here if you want to build experience and it is a great place for that but the days of joining for a command and a career are well and truly over. I don't have an axe to grind but this is the cold reality as I see it! You will build far more experience as a person and also as a pilot in the Middle East than you would flying around and living in your own 'back yard' but only you can evaluate if it is a step worth taking.
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If they came up with a program offering 5 years temporary assignments taking pilots from other good companies around the world the crewing problem would be solved. They' ll find plenty of quality people willing to try life experiences as they say on here without even raising conditions..to find someone committing to the middle east for 15+ years with bonds etc?And not able to go back to a decent job in Europe/US...mmm a little bit more difficult. It is what it is and they won' t give basings or commuting contracts so something has to give.
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Originally Posted by
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http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/602151-american-airlines-pay-their-single-aisle-captains-average-268-000-year.html[/url]
The discussion of US pilots vs this nationality and that is childish and unbecoming of a supposedly professional group. There are good and bad pilots of all nationalities. Argue the facts and the issues not the 'sticks and stones' of the playground.
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Of which paying tax takes a huge chunk out of. I have no doubt that the T&C are far superior in the US than the Middle East. However, in terms of raw take-home NET pay they are not. From what I see they are probably comparable all in.
The discussion of US pilots vs this nationality and that is childish and unbecoming of a supposedly professional group. There are good and bad pilots of all nationalities. Argue the facts and the issues not the 'sticks and stones' of the playground.
The discussion of US pilots vs this nationality and that is childish and unbecoming of a supposedly professional group. There are good and bad pilots of all nationalities. Argue the facts and the issues not the 'sticks and stones' of the playground.
So if the pay is comparable but the Ts & Cs are far superior, then why is anyone still here when they could be home in the USA?
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“I also get...
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....”
If that’s true....that is impressive.
What airline do you fly for?
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....”
If that’s true....that is impressive.
What airline do you fly for?
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“I also get...
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....”
If that’s true....that is impressive.
What airline do you fly for?
To pick the plane I want to fly
To pick the base I want to fly it from
To fly as much or as little as I choose
To bid and be awarded a schedule I choose
To drop trips
To swap trips without restriction
To get the vacation I ask for
To move that vacation to other dates if I choose
To file a grievance if my contract is violated
To get comp days off if my schedule is disrupted
To fly standby for free with my family
To live where I want
To pick the doctor I want
To not be constantly crippled by the effects of compounding fatigue
The list goes on....”
If that’s true....that is impressive.
What airline do you fly for?
