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EK 40k $ bond for Captain Upgrades

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EK 40k $ bond for Captain Upgrades

Old 27th Nov 2017, 03:40
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: FL370
Posts: 132
My previous airline did this too.

Last edited by sealear; 14th Dec 2017 at 10:55.
sealear is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 03:44
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 57
What's the problem if it's wiped off after 2-4 years? I don't know anyone who has reached upgrade with EK and then resigned immediately after. Waste of time surely? It's not the worst deal I've seen.
GillEx737 is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 04:00
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by GillEx737 View Post
What's the problem if it's wiped off after 2-4 years? I don't know anyone who has reached upgrade with EK and then resigned immediately after. Waste of time surely? It's not the worst deal I've seen.
Put it this way, if there's no need for it, then why implement it?

It's because people do leave very soon after getting their upgrade.
Big Enos Burdette is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 04:13
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Behind you
Age: 72
Posts: 222
Originally Posted by GillEx737 View Post
What's the problem if it's wiped off after 2-4 years? I don't know anyone who has reached upgrade with EK and then resigned immediately after. Waste of time surely? It's not the worst deal I've seen.
And let's say you fail your upgrade or you are demoted while you're still within the 2/4 year Bond period?
Can you leave without paying?

MS
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Old 27th Nov 2017, 04:36
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: paradise
Posts: 18
Ek management: Industry leaders in ignorance and arrogance; Real airlines don't need indentured servitude to keep their employees, but when have Ek been concerned about the well being of their employees.........their reputation continues to be that of a bottom feeder airline.
Rainman7 is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 05:12
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LHR
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by GillEx737 View Post
What's the problem if it's wiped off after 2-4 years? I don't know anyone who has reached upgrade with EK and then resigned immediately after. Waste of time surely? It's not the worst deal I've seen.
I know 3 guys who have done exactly that this year alone. We even laughed at the last ones leaving do that if this keeps up they’ll end up bonding us for upgrade - of course we all chuckled and said they’d never do something that dumb. 🤦🏼*♂️
Cloud Bunny is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 05:32
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: guess where
Posts: 374
Originally Posted by Cloud Bunny View Post
I know 3 guys who have done exactly that this year alone. We even laughed at the last ones leaving do that if this keeps up they’ll end up bonding us for upgrade - of course we all chuckled and said they’d never do something that dumb. 🤦🏼*♂️
So, if it has happened, there seems to be a reason for the company to introduce this bond...
what_goes_up is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 05:47
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by what_goes_up View Post
So, if it has happened, there seems to be a reason for the company to introduce this bond...
Wouldn't it be better to address the reason they're leaving, though?
Big Enos Burdette is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 05:51
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In the desert
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by Big Enos Burdette View Post
Wouldn't it be better to address the reason they're leaving, though?
That would require them to do a Root Cause Analysis
DuneMentat is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 06:30
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 200
They have, and decided that it’s all our fault for giving promenance and publicity to all their most excellent manergerial decisions.
They shall not be help culpable for the fact the train smash that’s heading this way is down to them.
gardenshed is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 08:25
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Yo mamma's house
Posts: 18
The bond starts from skill test, And as we know many guys fail after that point.

So if I am effectively "paying" for the upgrade, does that mean I can't be failed. If they charge $40k for a service they should train to a pass. Correct?

Lets go even further than that, If its my cheque book on the line...Can I select the trainers I want to be trained by? or the time of day I do my sims?
WakeTurb_69 is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 09:02
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 2,873
Well if you think that will get you through the course waketurb you might as well ask for it.

New joiners are bonded from the skill test. Has been that way for decades. Those that don't make it through the course are asked to leave, and no money is taken from them.

The Skill test happens a bit over a month to two months before the end of the course, and its timing is a Known, as there are no roster restrictions to slow it down. If you would like to have the bond started after the initial line check, you have employed yourself with EK one to two months extra than as it will stand now.

Be careful what you wish for.
donpizmeov is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 11:33
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 417
There is obviously a problem or they wouldn't need a 'solution'.

Wouldnt it have been nicer to offer (and be more productive), say a $40000 retention bonus for the guys who remain for say 2 years after the upgrade and a further bonus every X years. Enhances retention and drives recruitment as opposed to pushing NAC FO's to leave before command, and further erodes T&C so as to reduce future recruitment.

I guess that's too much carrot and not enough stick though.......
felixthecat is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 13:09
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 590
I heard there were a few newly promoted 777 skippers who resigned during the past week or so and are heading to Norwegian as DECs.

At the end of the day happiness has no price. Those that want to leave will still do so and the bond will simply be viewed as a ‘leaving fee’.
Emma Royds is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 13:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: MC80 Home One type Star Cruiser
Posts: 148
Originally Posted by sealear View Post
My previous airline did this too. Does it really matter?
It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect you.
Just like the A330 demotions, upgrade age limit, 5 year bond, upgrade bond, increased upgrade failure rate, etc.: Initially everyone will "care", but after a few months no one really does anymore, except those who are affected.
But remember that history has proven that tomorrow a new group of pilots can be effected by some other new policy.


And unfortunately, some people here (not you, Sealear) seem to agree with management, blaming the pilots. If management would make this a better place, they wouldn't have to implements these policies. I resigned, so I guess it's my fault as well
Bus Driver Man is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 14:20
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: here and there, mostly there...
Posts: 333
So... 4 years after upgrade skillstest..
This will mess up a lotta guys’ planned timeline. Most people I talk to nowadays plan for 1-2 years after upgrade to bail out.
Personally I think management is just waiting to see how bad the reaction will be on their current plan.
Already having a letter ready to ‘correct’ this to a 1 year bond.
Reactive decision making...

I call it a panic decision, without willing to address the real cause of the attrition rate.
How long can they play this game, I dont know. Too long for sure.

Anybody keeping up with the senioritylist and willing to share howmany pilots we gained, netto, the last 12 months?
natops is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 15:41
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Eternal Beach
Posts: 1,022
Many here talking about management failure to address this issue when it's obvious management has failed with in.
Who is "the" management of fleet and training?
One fella when there used to be three doing the job.
He was in over his head the first time in 2008, returned to his old title to have another crack in 2015, now has three hats to wear.
Nothing will get better under the current "no fear" leadership.

halas
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Old 27th Nov 2017, 16:25
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by natops View Post
..
Anybody keeping up with the senioritylist and willing to share how many pilots we gained, netto, the last 12 months?
The most junior guy 11 month ago has gained about 200 spots making the attrition rate around 5.2%
All time high was in second half of February 2017 with around 4250
As of a couple of weeks ago the total number was 4200.
The rate the last six month has been for every two pilots leaving one is joining.
thenumberpilot is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2017, 21:16
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Dee Sea
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Relatively few Americans have flown as expats (and even fewer will admit it ).
Taxation on worldwide income keeps most of us at home unless there's a VERY good reason otherwise. If you're moving to a low/no-tax environment, you need a much larger differential to satisfy the "expat bonus" and still stay ahead of the taxman.
Matvey is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2017, 01:11
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 4,970
Living in Dubai is probably an upgrade for some nationalities but it's a hardship tour for most Americans in my view.

Anyway, some right seat widebody time is probably enough to get you an interview with a U.S. carrier these days. Some folks get hired by cargo outfits like Atlas, get the B-744 P2 type rating, and go to United before they complete OE (formerly IOE).

The only advantage I can think of for waiting to upgrade to 777 captain before trying to get on with United, Delta or American is that you will be ready when the door slams shut, bitcoin crashes and the furloughs start. I'm sure EK will take you back as a DEC, right?

Some Americans went overseas in years past because their airlines went bankrupt and they were too old to get a job in the States but too young to retire. Others did not have a 'collage' [sic ] education required by the major airlines. Still others had 'unfortunate dates of hire' during airline strikes and were on the infamous 'Jumpseat Protection List'.

Originally Posted by Matvey View Post
If you're moving to a low/no-tax environment, you need a much larger differential to satisfy the "expat bonus" and still stay ahead of the taxman.
And I don't think the 'expat bonus' is there anymore at EK. Five-year FO's at places like Delta make more than Emirates captains and the cost of living is much less. It's been a couple of years since I've been through DXB but it really seems pricey compared to say, five years ago. Of course, you could argue that the supplied EK company 'villas' would be worth a lot somewhere like SFO. And, you don't have to pay union dues at EK, right?

Originally Posted by WakeTurb_69 View Post
If they charge $40k for a service they should train to a pass. Correct?

Lets go even further than that, If its my cheque book on the line...Can I select the trainers I want to be trained by? or the time of day I do my sims?
For those folks who go to U.S. carriers they really do train you to pass the course in my experience. The idea is that you are screened as a captain the day that you are hired and almost everyone passes the command course on the first try. The line operating experience is there to build confidence, not destroy it.

And, perhaps not for the initial course, but after the first year you can indeed bid for your sim times and refuse to train with someone under most U.S. airline contracts.

It's a different attitude from many overseas programs. I've mentioned here before running into the Qantas crew in SEL (before ICN was open). They were bragging that their command training was so good that only about half of the enrollees pass on the first try. I was impressed but not favorably.
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