Response to EK Training a disgrace
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Response to EK Training a disgrace
Having read the hysterical outburst at Emirates Training on public forum I felt beholden to respond as a trainer.
I have been in Emirates Training for almost 2 decades. Like any organisation it has had its ups and downs but is far from qualifying as a "disgrace". For the most part I have seen it as a progressive organisation that has the simple objective of producing good pilots to deliver to the line and identifying the areas where skills are lacking and take remedial action when they are.
Inevitably this results in some being graded as unacceptable, which is unpleasant for all. I have seen some fail checks and heard the excuses behind that. They are frequently hazy around the areas of poor performance and identify other criticisms that in themselves were not the reasons for the failure. I know this as I have often discussed the matter in detail with Examiners who themselves are somewhat distraught at having to make the call. No one likes this. It also produces a lot of work. The best sessions are 4's and 5's, short reports and everyone goes home happy. There is no agenda to send colleagues home in distress, or expose ourselves to close scrutiny on the reasons for a low grade. And close scrutiny is exactly what occurs.
That aside what is the option if someone's performance is not up to standard? A wink and a nod and let them loose to carry your family on the next vacation? That's the golden standard. I agree sometimes the call is difficult. I have agonized for hours over it. Even called to get guidance from other training colleagues for whom I have great respect. And to a degree it is even variable. Upgrades have tighter limits than the inexperienced for obvious reasons.
Simply put it's not a exact science. Inevitably there have been a few casualties that were not entirely warranted but that is inevitable. What side of the line would you err on?
That said for the most part when candidates fail to make the grade or simply have a bad day in the simulator, 90% can identify their own weaknesses and understand the decision. They too are professionals and, for the most part, highly self critical.
I hear the cry for more training. Less checking. But I see a great deal of training going on. We have some superb training staff. Again like any organisation we have some new and inexperienced ones who are bound to make errors. Generally they learn in time and are watched closely. If their motivation was wrong in the first place they soon get washed out of the system.
I have seen some superb trainers in my various airlines. I can assure you all that amongst the best are to be found in Emirates. As are the facilities and time allocated to training. I feel bound to defend not Emirates but the majority of my colleagues who put in great effort to give a quality product. To train. In a pleasant atmosphere with frequent pauses to critique, make suggestion, debrief, repeat. Not out of ego but a genuine desire to see a fluid, well handled, well managed training detail.
My personal standard is that if I the crew leaving the duty are not at least a little bit more dexterous, experienced, enlightened, confident or simply motivated then I have failed entirely in my job description and wasted all our time. And this benchmark is shared by many in the department.
But training is a two way street.
I cannot give someone a professional attitude. I cannot brief them on every aspect of a training detail. I cannot do their preparation, learn their memory actions, study their charts or familiarise them with the well published techniques on handling. My job is to set a tone, highlight difficult areas and assist in their management, to validate understanding, discuss implications, correct misconceptions, give an experienced input and help sort the vital from the interesting. And I don't claim to know all the answers. I am grateful to be corrected. It makes me better.
In short I am not a nursery school teacher. I expect to face well prepared professionals as I too am well prepared.
In my long experience, sessions go bad when the level of preparation and easily accessible knowledge is grossly lacking. If I have to explain a chart or teach a memory item that is clearly published and very obviously going to be a feature of the session then I have less time to explain the more detailed salient points. I have little time to add value above that which is already the baseline. I am trying then to simply pull the individual to the baseline and pre-empt that which I know will be ugly watching.
And yet I see a lot of this occurring more recently. An attitude of "I've pitched up - now train me. What are we doing today?". Well news to some: You will only get out of the session as much as you have put in. And whoever you are - there is always something to learn even from the less experienced.
To some of the more critical on this forum I say: Do not cast stones in glass houses. Don't take an incident on line to condemn and denigrate the nearest convenient target.
Don't get me wrong. There is a malaise afoot. Recent events prove that but training will not cure or stop that. However good it may be.
It is time for all - to the very top - to be introspective, self critical and open to discourse. We all have responsibilities. Do your bit and you personally will be ok.
Where did this malaise come from? I don't know. I have my suspicions. I believe it is a multi-headed hydra that has invaded the organization due to a deteriorating fundamental social ethos. Simply put the motivations have been wrong on many levels. But I can't cure that - certainly not alone. I point out and argue deficiencies when I see them. I see that as my responsibly but many do not. They moan or leave but do little to bring to light the problems. Mostly out of unjustified fear. If we don't all push for improvement then it's a slippery slope to the bottom. The front line of the industry has stood quiet for years while self interested parties have manipulated it for personal and unreasonable gain. That is acknowledged. But did you do your bit? You claim to be a professional. Did you write about your concerns and observations in a formal, factual, un-emotive fashion? From what I see on this forum there are many who are neither mature enough, literate enough or professional enough to do so.
We are all tired from years of pushing rosters to the limits, from the constant manipulation of FTL's, duty times. The application of law in this area without reason or logic, resulting in a workload and fatigue far beyond that which is formally acknowledged. The endless flood of information dispensed on a daily basis with the expectation of instant familiarization. The arrival of the instant and entitled generation who have much to learn about life - let alone flying. And a petty culture of resentment and barriers in the administrative departments on which we depend.
I too go to work sometimes weary, sometimes at inhumane hours, having beaten my head against the bureaucracy all day, having met the word "no" frequently with no rational reason or met yet another petty deterioration of my conditions in my mailbox. Sometimes I'm boiling with a hard to contain rage brought about by some minion who has no comprehension of the environment in which I work.
But I never take this out on my charges. They are colleagues with similar dreams and aspirations who I want to succeed. And when I leave, if I've given my best to then I feel somehow soothed.
I don't go the extra mile based on some corporate blurb from a soulless organisation that is another slave to 21st century morally bankrupt capitalism. I do it for you.
I have been in Emirates Training for almost 2 decades. Like any organisation it has had its ups and downs but is far from qualifying as a "disgrace". For the most part I have seen it as a progressive organisation that has the simple objective of producing good pilots to deliver to the line and identifying the areas where skills are lacking and take remedial action when they are.
Inevitably this results in some being graded as unacceptable, which is unpleasant for all. I have seen some fail checks and heard the excuses behind that. They are frequently hazy around the areas of poor performance and identify other criticisms that in themselves were not the reasons for the failure. I know this as I have often discussed the matter in detail with Examiners who themselves are somewhat distraught at having to make the call. No one likes this. It also produces a lot of work. The best sessions are 4's and 5's, short reports and everyone goes home happy. There is no agenda to send colleagues home in distress, or expose ourselves to close scrutiny on the reasons for a low grade. And close scrutiny is exactly what occurs.
That aside what is the option if someone's performance is not up to standard? A wink and a nod and let them loose to carry your family on the next vacation? That's the golden standard. I agree sometimes the call is difficult. I have agonized for hours over it. Even called to get guidance from other training colleagues for whom I have great respect. And to a degree it is even variable. Upgrades have tighter limits than the inexperienced for obvious reasons.
Simply put it's not a exact science. Inevitably there have been a few casualties that were not entirely warranted but that is inevitable. What side of the line would you err on?
That said for the most part when candidates fail to make the grade or simply have a bad day in the simulator, 90% can identify their own weaknesses and understand the decision. They too are professionals and, for the most part, highly self critical.
I hear the cry for more training. Less checking. But I see a great deal of training going on. We have some superb training staff. Again like any organisation we have some new and inexperienced ones who are bound to make errors. Generally they learn in time and are watched closely. If their motivation was wrong in the first place they soon get washed out of the system.
I have seen some superb trainers in my various airlines. I can assure you all that amongst the best are to be found in Emirates. As are the facilities and time allocated to training. I feel bound to defend not Emirates but the majority of my colleagues who put in great effort to give a quality product. To train. In a pleasant atmosphere with frequent pauses to critique, make suggestion, debrief, repeat. Not out of ego but a genuine desire to see a fluid, well handled, well managed training detail.
My personal standard is that if I the crew leaving the duty are not at least a little bit more dexterous, experienced, enlightened, confident or simply motivated then I have failed entirely in my job description and wasted all our time. And this benchmark is shared by many in the department.
But training is a two way street.
I cannot give someone a professional attitude. I cannot brief them on every aspect of a training detail. I cannot do their preparation, learn their memory actions, study their charts or familiarise them with the well published techniques on handling. My job is to set a tone, highlight difficult areas and assist in their management, to validate understanding, discuss implications, correct misconceptions, give an experienced input and help sort the vital from the interesting. And I don't claim to know all the answers. I am grateful to be corrected. It makes me better.
In short I am not a nursery school teacher. I expect to face well prepared professionals as I too am well prepared.
In my long experience, sessions go bad when the level of preparation and easily accessible knowledge is grossly lacking. If I have to explain a chart or teach a memory item that is clearly published and very obviously going to be a feature of the session then I have less time to explain the more detailed salient points. I have little time to add value above that which is already the baseline. I am trying then to simply pull the individual to the baseline and pre-empt that which I know will be ugly watching.
And yet I see a lot of this occurring more recently. An attitude of "I've pitched up - now train me. What are we doing today?". Well news to some: You will only get out of the session as much as you have put in. And whoever you are - there is always something to learn even from the less experienced.
To some of the more critical on this forum I say: Do not cast stones in glass houses. Don't take an incident on line to condemn and denigrate the nearest convenient target.
Don't get me wrong. There is a malaise afoot. Recent events prove that but training will not cure or stop that. However good it may be.
It is time for all - to the very top - to be introspective, self critical and open to discourse. We all have responsibilities. Do your bit and you personally will be ok.
Where did this malaise come from? I don't know. I have my suspicions. I believe it is a multi-headed hydra that has invaded the organization due to a deteriorating fundamental social ethos. Simply put the motivations have been wrong on many levels. But I can't cure that - certainly not alone. I point out and argue deficiencies when I see them. I see that as my responsibly but many do not. They moan or leave but do little to bring to light the problems. Mostly out of unjustified fear. If we don't all push for improvement then it's a slippery slope to the bottom. The front line of the industry has stood quiet for years while self interested parties have manipulated it for personal and unreasonable gain. That is acknowledged. But did you do your bit? You claim to be a professional. Did you write about your concerns and observations in a formal, factual, un-emotive fashion? From what I see on this forum there are many who are neither mature enough, literate enough or professional enough to do so.
We are all tired from years of pushing rosters to the limits, from the constant manipulation of FTL's, duty times. The application of law in this area without reason or logic, resulting in a workload and fatigue far beyond that which is formally acknowledged. The endless flood of information dispensed on a daily basis with the expectation of instant familiarization. The arrival of the instant and entitled generation who have much to learn about life - let alone flying. And a petty culture of resentment and barriers in the administrative departments on which we depend.
I too go to work sometimes weary, sometimes at inhumane hours, having beaten my head against the bureaucracy all day, having met the word "no" frequently with no rational reason or met yet another petty deterioration of my conditions in my mailbox. Sometimes I'm boiling with a hard to contain rage brought about by some minion who has no comprehension of the environment in which I work.
But I never take this out on my charges. They are colleagues with similar dreams and aspirations who I want to succeed. And when I leave, if I've given my best to then I feel somehow soothed.
I don't go the extra mile based on some corporate blurb from a soulless organisation that is another slave to 21st century morally bankrupt capitalism. I do it for you.
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Well said Pixy. While the criticism can be well justified sometimes in any airline it is a very very small group that is referred to but of course they get the maximum dialogue. I've done 40+ years in this industry and you post really is the reality and some need to be reminded of it, Thanks.
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Pixy - I believe that the VAST majority of EK pilots agree with you! The reaction that we see now is towards a senior management which has identified training as the issue, (though to be fair, that is only my supposition) since it is an easy target and draws criticism away from the areas where it should be pointed.
Based on the company reaction to DME it is only natural that the pilots are concerned. When MM arrived we seen a change in training for the better and things improved dramatically. We have also seen (or read between the lines) as he was undercut over and over by senior management. There is no doubt that a decade ago there was more more 'checking' going on. MM manged that and managed those trainers who were the problem out of the department. The natural fear among the pilots now is that those days may be returning.
It should be clear to everyone that senior management is targeting pilots and training as the issue. While pilots obviously are at the forefront there has been NO acknowledgment from management that THEY have any responsibility in the events (rosters, fatigue etc etc).
Training is not the issue.
Based on the company reaction to DME it is only natural that the pilots are concerned. When MM arrived we seen a change in training for the better and things improved dramatically. We have also seen (or read between the lines) as he was undercut over and over by senior management. There is no doubt that a decade ago there was more more 'checking' going on. MM manged that and managed those trainers who were the problem out of the department. The natural fear among the pilots now is that those days may be returning.
It should be clear to everyone that senior management is targeting pilots and training as the issue. While pilots obviously are at the forefront there has been NO acknowledgment from management that THEY have any responsibility in the events (rosters, fatigue etc etc).
Training is not the issue.
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I think you're right. Training isn't the issue, I believe practise is.
Whilst I feel that almost all of the trainers are good, the attitude of fleet and the training management is flawed and needs to be changed.
I also don't believe we should be attacking one another. That just plays into fleet's hands.
Whilst I feel that almost all of the trainers are good, the attitude of fleet and the training management is flawed and needs to be changed.
I also don't believe we should be attacking one another. That just plays into fleet's hands.
Last edited by Oldaircrew; 9th Oct 2017 at 13:37. Reason: Content added
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Pixy - your first post is generally speaking a defense of good trainers and an urging for all to up the game, your second is a damning indictment of the system's mgt methods - in effect a 'disgrace'.
They are two separate subjects.
If you reread your second post (#11) - what you have done is effectively articulate what that individual who created the 'Disgrace' thread was less effective at doing.
At the end of the day - you have both written of your contempt of the system - to which the vast majority of us agree.
They are two separate subjects.
If you reread your second post (#11) - what you have done is effectively articulate what that individual who created the 'Disgrace' thread was less effective at doing.
At the end of the day - you have both written of your contempt of the system - to which the vast majority of us agree.
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you are right
I know of a couple of guys who failed the selection for training dept and are now big mouth as far as the " inexperience " of some of the trainers.
However some of the incidents and events we've had you cannot fix with a quick sim session, there are fundamentally a few things a wide body pilot , if he didn't waste his time taking selfies and asked the questions and learnt from the guy his flying with , should know , in fact any pilot who takes his job seriously as a professional. Everyone , including trainers make mistakes, but to put the blame purely on the dept is plain silly.
I know of a couple of guys who failed the selection for training dept and are now big mouth as far as the " inexperience " of some of the trainers.
However some of the incidents and events we've had you cannot fix with a quick sim session, there are fundamentally a few things a wide body pilot , if he didn't waste his time taking selfies and asked the questions and learnt from the guy his flying with , should know , in fact any pilot who takes his job seriously as a professional. Everyone , including trainers make mistakes, but to put the blame purely on the dept is plain silly.
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Pixy: for sure you must be a star but be assured you are a living minority.
There are Trainers like N.C. on AB who is in taining for ages and who passes guys after the Sim but 3h later calls you up that he changed now his mind and decided to fail you.
It's those guys who destroyed training as well.
He is also on the list if training department needs a dirty job to be done ( His Nickname is Hitler )!
Remember the Austrian Instructor NH who got a warning letter from the Training Department because according their opinion he is/was a bad instructor because he didn't fail any trainee within the last 6 month?
Many more stories like this can be mentioned!
Yes the training department is a disgrace and has it's share of responsibility for the present spiral dive of the whole company.
There are Trainers like N.C. on AB who is in taining for ages and who passes guys after the Sim but 3h later calls you up that he changed now his mind and decided to fail you.
It's those guys who destroyed training as well.
He is also on the list if training department needs a dirty job to be done ( His Nickname is Hitler )!
Remember the Austrian Instructor NH who got a warning letter from the Training Department because according their opinion he is/was a bad instructor because he didn't fail any trainee within the last 6 month?
Many more stories like this can be mentioned!
Yes the training department is a disgrace and has it's share of responsibility for the present spiral dive of the whole company.
Last edited by Talparc; 10th Oct 2017 at 15:31.
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Hey Pixi, I give you a 5 on your essay.
Now, what is this rumor of getting rid of up to ten percent of the pilots? Wow, it must be a rumor:-)
That would amount to four hundred plus pilots; they should start at the office perhaps :-)
Now, what is this rumor of getting rid of up to ten percent of the pilots? Wow, it must be a rumor:-)
That would amount to four hundred plus pilots; they should start at the office perhaps :-)
Last edited by Neektu; 10th Oct 2017 at 13:21.
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NH warning letter was not because he was too fair or didn't fail anybody
Pixy: for sure you must be a star but be assured you are a living minority.
There are Trainers like N.C. on AB who is in taining for ages and who passes guys after the Sim but 3h later calls you up that he changed now his mind and decided to fail you.
It's those guys who destroyed training as well.
He is also on the list if training department needs a dirty job to be done ( His Nickname is Hitler )!
Remember the Austrian Instructor NH who got a warning letter from the Training Department because according their opinion he is/was a bad instructor because he didn't fail any trainee within the last 6 month?
Many more stories like this can be mentioned!
Yes the training department is a disgrace and has it's share of responsibility for the present spiral dive of the whole company.
There are Trainers like N.C. on AB who is in taining for ages and who passes guys after the Sim but 3h later calls you up that he changed now his mind and decided to fail you.
It's those guys who destroyed training as well.
He is also on the list if training department needs a dirty job to be done ( His Nickname is Hitler )!
Remember the Austrian Instructor NH who got a warning letter from the Training Department because according their opinion he is/was a bad instructor because he didn't fail any trainee within the last 6 month?
Many more stories like this can be mentioned!
Yes the training department is a disgrace and has it's share of responsibility for the present spiral dive of the whole company.
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ibelieve:
their intention was to shut him up, he was the only one in training who spoke up and finger pointed at the existing problems back then.
While the other 5 Star Trainers buried their heads in the sand, same as today.
It's called ass covering mentality.
Why is NC still in 380 training?
their intention was to shut him up, he was the only one in training who spoke up and finger pointed at the existing problems back then.
While the other 5 Star Trainers buried their heads in the sand, same as today.
It's called ass covering mentality.
Why is NC still in 380 training?
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Glofish, I have disagree with part of your comment.
'I can relate to that, but please do not cry for sympathy or tell us that you do that for us. That’s pathetic. You do it for yourself and some more dough' - No one is looking for sympathy, just some understanding that not all trainers can, nor should, be tarred with the same brush. Despite what you think, I (and many others), do train for the trainee - we help them achieve their goals and dreams and if I haven't helped, then I consider that I have failed the trainee. To say that that's pathetic is completely disrespectful and indicates that you don't understand what it means to be a trainer. Yes, we do get more remuneration because for any given session that a trainee participates in (sim session, line check, or line training), the trainer has to prepare prior to the session and then follow the session by writing a report for each trainee that is factual and acknowledges good performance and highlights areas that require improvement without being degrading.
I will continue to do the best that I can to ensure that I'm part of the solution, rather than the problem. Doing nothing is tantamount to adding to the problem.
'I can relate to that, but please do not cry for sympathy or tell us that you do that for us. That’s pathetic. You do it for yourself and some more dough' - No one is looking for sympathy, just some understanding that not all trainers can, nor should, be tarred with the same brush. Despite what you think, I (and many others), do train for the trainee - we help them achieve their goals and dreams and if I haven't helped, then I consider that I have failed the trainee. To say that that's pathetic is completely disrespectful and indicates that you don't understand what it means to be a trainer. Yes, we do get more remuneration because for any given session that a trainee participates in (sim session, line check, or line training), the trainer has to prepare prior to the session and then follow the session by writing a report for each trainee that is factual and acknowledges good performance and highlights areas that require improvement without being degrading.
I will continue to do the best that I can to ensure that I'm part of the solution, rather than the problem. Doing nothing is tantamount to adding to the problem.
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Here is the thing....
1. You don't know what you don't know... if you have been here for a long time, and this is the best you know.... Then sorry to say, you don't know what you don't know! Other airlines have training, techniques, open discussions, feedback loops that integrate and improve. Other places do this better... FACT.
2. The original gripe had very little to do with the quality of the trainers, but more about the system that they operate under. I would be sure that you can go to the manager of training and ask him or here what should change. Then ask him / her to circle on the list the things that they can change. The top of the crop is operating with their hands tied. We all know where the problems are to be found. Unfortunately it will take something major to change it.
3. If someone tells you they feel like they cannot engage in training due to the fear that the place operates under.... Then that is real. Take it as feedback (which may would agree with) and try to see a way forward to improve. Feedback is not something to be argues with. If the customer is telling you they have a crappy experience with what is on show, then that's the feedback.
My opinion only... The good trainers are worlds best. The worst are worlds worst... You would not believe how average some of the training is. Some is wrong, some is just absent, some is negative training, some is intimidating.... Some is by people who just don't care, and some is by people who just don't know any better.
1. You don't know what you don't know... if you have been here for a long time, and this is the best you know.... Then sorry to say, you don't know what you don't know! Other airlines have training, techniques, open discussions, feedback loops that integrate and improve. Other places do this better... FACT.
2. The original gripe had very little to do with the quality of the trainers, but more about the system that they operate under. I would be sure that you can go to the manager of training and ask him or here what should change. Then ask him / her to circle on the list the things that they can change. The top of the crop is operating with their hands tied. We all know where the problems are to be found. Unfortunately it will take something major to change it.
3. If someone tells you they feel like they cannot engage in training due to the fear that the place operates under.... Then that is real. Take it as feedback (which may would agree with) and try to see a way forward to improve. Feedback is not something to be argues with. If the customer is telling you they have a crappy experience with what is on show, then that's the feedback.
My opinion only... The good trainers are worlds best. The worst are worlds worst... You would not believe how average some of the training is. Some is wrong, some is just absent, some is negative training, some is intimidating.... Some is by people who just don't care, and some is by people who just don't know any better.
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Glofish, why don't you show us all the moral example and quit with a bang. Or maybe you should have refused to upgrade (you are a Captain?). After all, surely an FO position would have provided with the "basic money" we all need and assuming a position of authority as a Captain is completely unnecessary.
Aaah, the good old solidarity with other people's, careers, finances, dreams and ambitions as long as one oneself doesn't have to pay the bill...
Always particularly entertained with the phrase "decided not to join" Training. A bit like APC, just your decision...
Aaah, the good old solidarity with other people's, careers, finances, dreams and ambitions as long as one oneself doesn't have to pay the bill...
Always particularly entertained with the phrase "decided not to join" Training. A bit like APC, just your decision...
Last edited by OBOGS; 17th Oct 2017 at 12:26.
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