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EK training a disgrace

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EK training a disgrace

Old 11th Oct 2017, 08:15
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2016
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the ultimate price in this case is a more then full bag of cash, freedom from this f...shit hole and health!
Your call now!
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 10:24
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Talparc, whatever happened to you, clearly you have not yet had your freedom from your life in here... I wish you eventually will. Move on my friend.

Last edited by OBOGS; 11th Oct 2017 at 10:29. Reason: spelling
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 12:02
  #43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Talparc View Post
the ultimate price in this case is a more then full bag of cash, freedom from this f...shit hole and health!
Your call now!
I left long ago
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 13:16
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
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one of the best posts of lately!
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 03:21
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 56
Spot on!!

Acryingshame.............Nail.......head.........the whole nine yards!!!!

Not sure how this company culture/environment ended up where we are today, but we all know that this road they are on is one to ruin.

There appears to be no way out of this 'hole' as management refuse to believe that they are a major part of the problem.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 05:30
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Inmate of District 11
Posts: 442

Thanks for your commitment (time, effort, thoughts) to writing your post and adding honesty and understanding to the current situation in EK training. I would completely agree with what you have written.

What gets me is that I am a long timer at EK, I almost completed a decade in training here but left due to politics. The annual review of my marking students via the PAMs often saw that I was not completely standard and I was not on the line with the rest of the training department, only a little off here or there. I did award a 2 or even a 1 when deserved, but I questioned how every instructor can be "on the line" and marking to the same standard as each other. What if just by chance all my trainees were the better trainees that Emirates have. What if the sims I am doing are easier than some sims other instructors are doing. Aside from these factors, the company required every instructor to fulfill the requirement to both mark people with good and bad grades and to be on or near the line as per the "standard" against their peers. So I hung up my stars and decided training was no longer for me, although I trained in my previous 2 companies also. Training to me was a vocation, to pass knowledge and allow the trainee to gain experience and not fear every moment in the simulator. If the trainee left the session feeling that they were a better pilot through learning something new, or by practicing something challenging then my aim was achieved.

I enjoyed your post, I sympathise with trainers today having to "train" with the fear that the trainees have and it's subsequent loss of value that the trainees could achieve.

Before I go, I enjoyed your analogy and I quote "Have you ever seen a teenager become good at a console game by reading the manual??". I ask questions and my answer is always the same, you can read that in the FCTM or otherwise.

Thanks for your posting here acryingshame, it's your concerns for the profession and the Pilots that you have taken so much time, a great post to have read.

EK is still a good company to work for, this tide of growing concerns though really needs to be reversed, sooner than later. Any news on WC anyone?

Enjoy the weekend all.


Last edited by jack schidt; 12th Oct 2017 at 05:50.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 06:49
  #47 (permalink)  
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It is Thursday.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 08:00
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
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That's old news already.....
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 13:41
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South of North
Posts: 656
acryingshame - have to agree.

I would add that while they have added a handling sim, which is a great idea, they have bastardized it over time. First by squeezing in series of other procedures that they could not complete in the regular 2 day. You now have to be careful (as a student) when it comes to doing anything extra at the end of a session because you can now fail. Some instructors are very good and make clear that you try anything you like with no consequences. If I don't know the instructor or if he is not clear about this I now politely decline - it is simply not worth my career to risk it - which says much about the state of the situation today.

The entire recurrent system is week. We spend 8-12 hours doing online courses most of which is a waste of time. It ticks all the regulators boxes but adds almost nothing to pilot knowledge. You have no ability to ask questions or push into specific areas where you may be weak or lack understanding. This ability to ask questions is fundamental to learning! Writing down questions to ask later disrupts the flow of learning and even if you are able to do this the instructor in our 1 day class may not be prepared for the technical aspect you are querying. Good luck getting an answer from anyone else!

We once has 2 days of ground school, dropped to half a day then back to a full day (after pilot pressure) and now back to a bit less than 1 day as they have crammed CRM into it. There is almost NO coverage of technical aspects with any indepth training. A training manager was commenting the other day on a pilot who had a basic flap issue, misinterpreted the real problem and made some poor decisions. Could it be that after 14 years they had not seen that issue since initial training!!!??

We do need MORE training not less! Ground school is essentially free since they simply reduce pilot days off and provide no 'credit' for the day. So why not ADD a day (or two) where we cover systems from the ground up, relate that knowledge to failures in flight, checklist and management knowledge etc.

I know years ago our new VP commented that pilots should 'just know their stuff.' It shows the complete disconnect between how humans learn and, as importantly, retain information.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 14:28
  #50 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
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OK. I'm going to but in here. After more than 2 years away from work, I started to look for something to do. I applied for a job, totally non aviation related, and after an extremely hard
selection process ( it took almost a year, and Im not making that up), I was very fortunate to be selected.

Firstly, I have to say..I am having a ball.

But most importantly I want to say, I am working in a safety critical industry . The training course is 27 weeks. But at no time is it a "threat" based training system. At all times we are told..we have selected you guys out of literally thousands of applicants..we want you to pass...we are here to help.

The training is great. Mistakes corrected and pointed out, encouragement given when doing well. I get up every morning, looking forward to the next day of my 27 week course, because I know I will be TRAINED and if I make a mistake, the attitude is...Mate, we all make mistakes, thats why the course is 27 weeks..we are all here to help you ( and thats a direct quote from my wonderful trainer)...I have discovered a new life, where you can learn new things in middle age, and be guided and helped, but never feel under threat.

There is a better training system out there...I'm currently working under one of them.

And for the record. my new employer has 100 million passenger boardings a year.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 16:07
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingston upon Thames
Posts: 80
SOPS, to you goes all my envy.
happy for you.

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Old 15th Oct 2017, 12:14
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 33
After reading some of these posts here, I thought I throw something in.

Recent Accidents and events are due to LACK OF BASIC FLYING SKILLS!!

AF447, Asiana B777 at SFO and EK521!! Need anymore examples??

During the last decades CEO's of major airlines have been trying to satisfy themselves and their unsatisfiable hunger for automation!! A hunger for automation so incredible that convinced the industry that this is the only way forward in order to improve the safety record of aviation. Perhaps in the back of their minds they themselves had some doubts, but proceeded anyway and were willing to take the risk.

The whole philosophy was changed in favor for an automated approach in every aspect of the operation in the airline industry. THIS INCLUDES FLYING THE AIRPLANE! Statistics has correctly proven that the shear majority of accidents and incidents are caused by human error. So is automating the pilot out of the loop the answer? Airbus with the introduction of the A320 and it's advanced systems in the late 80's thought so? Or were they convinced in order to meet airline CEO's desire for automation? (To save money?).

In my opinion this automation philosophy and their CEO's is on track to prove itself wrong! The above mentioned accidents are just prime examples of a lack of manual flying skills. Perhaps flying skills to those who were never given the opportunity to aquire in basic training, contributed to this automation culture and philosophy.

Basic manual and physical flying skills are and supposed to be the professional foundation of any professional pilot. It is like the foundation of a building you build upon. As pilots of current automated aircraft, protection of this very professional foundation is absolutely essential. What has happened in the last decades is that this basic and manual foundation has disappeared in the background if not disappeared at all. This is a recipe for disaster! It's like you are chipping away the foundation of that very building until it collapses. And that is exactly what's happening.

Pilots are not regularly involved anymore in the physical and basic manual flying operation of the airplane. Continuous manual and physical involvement of any pilot in flying the airplane assures the maintaining of a high level of manual and physical flying ability and protects that very important professional foundation of each pilot.
The airlines and their CEO's openly declare that they desire pilots to 'think outside the box' in order to save the day which is a correct strategy to avoid potential accidents and incidents. But how do you expect a pilot to save the day if the pilot is uncomfortable to ACT outside the box when required to save the day? Together with this lack of physical basic flying abilities comes the even more important 'anticipation ability'!!! Solid basic physical manual flying abilities allow the pilot to see threats coming far ahead of time and allows the pilot to take very effective and corrective action in aircraft trajectories before drastic action may be required. The chance for the pilot to be put into a situation and having to mitigate a serious situation is drastically reduced.

A prime example is the Asiana crash in SFO.

The accident reports suggest that one of the primary contributing factors is the unfamiliarity of the pilot with the automatic flight control systems. In my opinion, even if the pilot didn't understand the system and if the pilot just assessed the situation from a basic flying perspective the whole accident would have been prevented. The aircraft trajectory was low and slow, so what are the corrective action from a basic flying perspective? If this pilot was accustomed and exposed to the regular basic and physical raw data flying of the aircraft, the anticipation ability would have prevented this accident. It's the easiest way to just put the blame on each individual pilot. But we now have too many individual pilots who make similar mistakes! Now you throw in some fatigue issues and the accident chain is complete! Too tired, no anticipation abilities, don't see the threat coming and there you have it!

Now we haven't even addressed the complexity of some modern flight decks where you would have to look carefully where you can recognize the basics!! This complex interface between man and machine is another serious problem which contributes to the already overwhelming amount of present distractions which again moves a pilot away from basic flying duties. Modern cockpits seriously challenge your simplification abilities in order to keep it simple to keep full control over the situation e.g. Situational Awareness.

Me personally, I am a widebody captain, flying with a major international carrier. Currently with my 5th airline with 27 years of total flying. I am convinced that current airline CEO's are playing a game of Russian roulette on a daily bases. They are heavily reliant on the strong basic flying skills that the older generation pilots still have from the past to save the day and to protect their automation culture and philosophy. But it's coming to an end to what they can get away with. Newer generation pilots from modern flight training programs specifically tailored to the automation desires of current airline CEO's will have very limited capacity and anticipation abilities to avoid undesirable situations. It's not the individual pilots fault! They have never been given the opportunity to develop these all important basic manual flying skills to begin with. How do you expect them to mitigate in these undesirable situations and then to ACT outside the box to save the day? Spilt second decisions and actions are not taken conscious but instinctively! In order to make correct instinctive reactions, especially associated with physical airplane control! Instinctive reactions are the result of background and learning experiences in the past. The FAA Aviation Instructor's Handbook in an excellent source of this background info and is free online.

Anytime when there's an undesirable situation with the flying operation of the aircraft, it's so easy to blame the individual pilot instead of looking at an industry wide problem that needs to be addressed.

The current situation in the airline industry with regards to the severely degraded physical and manual flying capabilities of airline pilots needs to be addressed urgently. Leading aviation authorities such as the FAA and airline CEO's need to recognize that their automation policies and cultures have failed. Sometimes a step back to the past is actually a step forward into the future. Not recognizing this and attempting to find a solution that allows this dangerous and outdated automation culture to survive is asking for the next smoking hole with loss of life. Instead some airlines are turning to hostile and intimidating actions towards individual pilots, thinking that that is the right approach as long as their automation culture can survive. Also thinkng that a few additional manual flying sim sessions a year will solve this problem. They couldn't be more wrong. Sometimes it just destroys the confidence a pilot has by the confirmation in the sim that his/her manual flying capabilities are severely degraded and that A LOT more training is now required to feel comfortable.

A new strategy to re-introduce manual and physical flying requires very careful planning and innovation! Turning off the autopilot immediately right now would not be a wise idea, but instead a thorough thought out training program which reverses this culture and brings back basic manual raw data flying on a regular basis is in my opinion the only answer. No matter what the size of the aircraft is, C-172, A320 or B747 they all fly the same way. When flying raw data, no auto thrust or flight director keeps you associated with the basics, increases your own confidence in your abilities, increases your anticipation ability because you know what you can expect from your airplane, recognize early potential undesirable situations, increases your spare capacity when you do engage the automation because manual flying is no longer a workload; you're used to it and your confidence in your colleagues. This requires a considerable financial investment and it is up to the airline CEO's if they are prepared to make that investment. Not doing this would be very short term thinking instead of of a long term future investment in safety. It is not easy but a serious challenge since we have effectively already and almost past a point of no return. We need manual flying TRAINING, TRAINING AND TRAINING!! Not a checkride!!

One previous airline CEO Stelios from easyJet said: 'If you think safety is expensive, try an accident!'

Here's another last closing statement from the Children of the magenta by Capt. Warren Vander Bergh at American Airlines:

We are first and foremost Captains and pilots. But we must also be effective cockpit managers. On our automated flight decks we must manage the various levels of automation available to us. Clearly increasing levels of automation will reduce workload in most scenarios, however we must change the culture that drives us to operate at the highest levels at all times. Automation lacks the ability to create flexible responses in unanticipated changes in flight path requirements. So, in these circumstances, a lower level of automation should lower workload, and thereby preclude us from becoming task saturated and losing our situational awareness

Last edited by FL XXX; 15th Oct 2017 at 12:43.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 14:35
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mars
Posts: 521
Valid points. In the past pilots would revert to manual flying when the automation wasn't meeting the demand they wanted. Now many pilots lack the confidence to fly the aircraft and worse still some try to use the automation to save the day; engaging the autopilot when the aircraft is departing from the planned flight path because they are unable to correct the error themselves.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 14:42
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United Arab Emirates
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I reckon even more those days the benefits I could have flying cessna,cherokees,piper cub etc long enough before flying super heavy jets, and that experience I acquired is priceless when it comes to basic flight skills even during a strong xwind as for an example
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 16:22
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mars
Posts: 521
Yep, I'm with you. I flew lots of little aircraft and I am thankful I did. I am told some carriers don't let their FOs land on the line and keep them current in the sim. I hope that isn't true but wouldn't be surprised
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 17:30
  #56 (permalink)  
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We now have captains that never did get those flying skills!
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Old 21st Oct 2017, 16:37
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 815

I am far and away removed from EK but I am an SFI/SFE in a far away cold land. I see students from many different countries and cultures. I find your commentary to be 100% accurate beyond EK and should be appreciated and valued by everyone who reads it.

As a FFS test and evaluation pilot, I would like to pass along the following caution. At least in a CAE product. Ninety degree crosswinds beyond 15 knots are a waste of time. Crosswinds in a simulator to the demonstrated limit is pushing it. At 40 knots, the computer is simply guessing, at best. The result is nothing more than hmmmm .... a computer using guess work to guess. GIGO.

I like the A380 crosswind video making the rounds. Simulator crosswind confidence probably had a lot to do with the landing decision.

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Old 21st Oct 2017, 19:24
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UAE
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Don’t they have a “ temporary” Dsvp flt ops postholder?
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Old 21st Oct 2017, 19:24
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Originally Posted by Williw Everlearn
I like the A380 crosswind video making the rounds. Simulator crosswind confidence probably had a lot to do with the landing decision.
Although the wind was well within FCOM Landing Performance Limits for what looked like a not-too-wet-runway...
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Old 21st Oct 2017, 21:14
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
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The crosswind was within FCOM limits onto a dry runway ...
based solely on the video, someone seemed to have had their hands full with a crosswind then.
The lateral movements on touchdown must have been quite something for those seated near the rear. It sure looked nasty.

I've never done that. (wink, wink)

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