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Old 27th Sep 2017, 21:09
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 231
120 sectors ... that's more than good + massive amounts of simulator etc , they should be at the very least fairly competent , and some are it's a big step after all , but just try the old 3 x table test ( no calculators allowed ) when you next feel like undergoing a sense of amazement .. but not in a good way . I think they struggle for good applicants as well these days , always exceptions of course .
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 21:11
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,039
Well, if your expecting the 200 hour cadet to be as proficient as an experienced F/O with 8 years under his/her belt, then you may need to be more realistic in your expectations. We all started somewhere right?

As for the last point, exactly right, which is why as an airline, we need to invest in the foundations before building the house. The foundations are the trainers.

Edited to add, as our posts crossed. See that you agree it's a big ask, which it is. I'm also in agreement that some of the basics are lost, especially when you see these guys adding the CFP times using their phones....and still get it wrong! Generally though, I'm mostly impressed with their performance by the time they're released to the line. As for standards, perhaps the airline should consider opening up the scheme to non nationals. Maybe would encourage and facilitate a few pilots to remain longer if their siblings were to get a go!

Harry
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 22:00
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 231
Some good points H , but comparing apples to apples and I don't mean to denigrate the cadets in any way, but the average 40 - 60 sector EU cadet is generally far ahead in terms of proficiency , or at least used to be when selection was extremely rigorous ; possibly now less so with ptf schemes . .? I do know that the t & c,s of cadets in training at EK are excellent , they even draw a salary and good for them . The cost is high and they are very Labour intensive . Anyway , onwards & upwards , the new training academy might open the door for non nationals & siblings , I hope it does , but they will be paying for the privilege one way or another .
Apologies all round for the thread drift .
.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 03:51
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,359
Standby for more of the same events, below average pilots unable to deal with rapidly changing environments. Yes it can happen to any and all of us , but the overall lack of airmanship with rear it's ugly head. Now it's Captains of the magenta line!
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 06:51
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Moon
Posts: 40
It's very simple.
They are now reaping the high cost of their own cost cuttings.

Last edited by Mach.888; 28th Sep 2017 at 18:00.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 15:51
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: In a pipe in the upstairs water closet
Posts: 220
I'm rather tired of the 'children of the magenta line' rhetoric. What would you have us (my generation - millennials) do? Get some time on a DC-10? L-1011? No, no they're all retired. Ahh...F27? No, they're mostly all decommissioned too. Oh, the legendary 727? Wait, they're pretty much banned anywhere because those JT8Ds scream too loudly. Or would you prefer us to get some time on the Sud Caravelle? Nope, they're all out of the sky too.

So really, our generation is a result of those aircraft being sent to the scrap heap and having nothing really to cut our teeth on unless it actually has a magenta line. Personally, I would have loved to have flown a 707 or 747SP and do some REAL heavy flying. But valves, mechanical linkages, ducts and IRUs are being replaced with microswitches, FADEC, Fly-by-wire and of course that much belied magenta line.

On the line, impart us with the knowledge of your yesteryears. Everyone loves a good war story so long as we can learn from it. Granted, some Millennials are rather sensitive to constructive criticism, but honestly that is only a few. Don't forget, you guys started from somewhere too. Yes, FOs on the line are expected to demonstrate a degree of proficiency so when the situation turns to the proverbial, everyone gets to go home safely, and line captains aren't exactly expected to 'train' on every flight. But guidance isn't such a bad thing. Whether you like it or not, you're role models for the next generation of captains.

As for instagramming in the flight deck, tell them! It's your flight deck. Like most pilots, we like to chronicle our experiences throughout our careers. The previous generation had Polaroids, scrapbooks and the like. Our platform is a little bit more instantaneous (and a whole lot more public) which can catch a few off guard when they are asked to explain themselves to Fleet. I for one have been shown photos of FOs who have taken some snaps in delightful places such as Dubai, Kabul, India to name a few, ALL of which photography is strictly prohibited. So it's only a matter of time before they go to Floor Number 3. For what it's worth, I don't have an instagrammy account thingy.

Just a small bit of perspective from this lowly child of the magenta line. Take it or leave it, but this bitter picking on the new generation of pilots is wrong - and too easy. Harry has hit the nail on the head. Primary foundation lies in the trainers.

The real enemy is the one who sits on Floor Number 9...

Fuel-Off

Last edited by Fuel-Off; 29th Sep 2017 at 05:05.
Fuel-Off is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 16:48
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Midlands
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by Fuel-Off View Post
I'm rather tired of the 'children of the magenta line' rhetoric. What would you have us (my generation - millennials) do? Get some time on a DC-10? L-1011? No, no they're all retired. Ahh...F27? No, they're mostly all decommissioned too. Oh, the legendary 727? Wait, they're pretty much banned anywhere because those JT8Ds scream too loudly. Or would you prefer us to get some time on the Sud Caravelle? Nope, they're all out of the sky too.

So really, our generation is a result of those aircraft being sent to the scrap heap and having nothing really to cut our teeth on unless it actually has a magenta line. Personally, I would have loved to have flown a 707 or 747SP and do some REAL heavy flying. But valves, mechanical linkages, ducts and IRUs are being replaced with microswitches, FADEC, Fly-by-wire and of course that much belied magenta line.

On the line, impart us with the knowledge of your yesteryears. Everyone loves a good war story so long as we can learn from it. Granted, some Millennials are rather sensitive to constructive criticism, but honestly that is only a few. Don't forget, you guys started from somewhere too. Yes, FOs on the line are expected to demonstrate a degree of proficiency so when the situation turns to the proverbial, everyone gets to go home safely, and line captains aren't exactly expected to 'train' on every flight. But guidance isn't such a bad thing. Whether you like it or not, you're role models for the next generation of captains.

As for instagramming in the flight deck, tell them! It's your flight deck. Like most pilots, we like to chronicle our experiences through our careers. The previous generation had Polaroids, scrapbooks and the like. Our platform is a little bit more instantaneous (and a whole lot more public) which can catch a few off guard when they are asked to explain themselves to Fleet. I for one have been shown photos of FOs who have taken some snaps in delightful places such as Dubai, Kabul, India to name a few, ALL of which photography is strictly prohibited. So it's only a matter of time before they go to Floor Number 3. For what it's worth, I don't have an instagrammy account thingy.

Just a small bit of perspective from this lowly child of the magenta line. Take it or leave it, but this bitter picking on the new generation of pilots is wrong - and too easy. Harry has hit the nail on the head. Primary foundation lies in the trainers.

The real enemy is the one who sits on Floor Number 9...

Fuel-Off
You make an excellent point, respectfully and tactfully.

We, as an industry, are responsible for breeding the non-lateral-thinking magenta line ethos. It seemed to be the way to go until we realised human error exists in automation, because it's designed by humans.

The brain may have its resident pathogens in it's fallibility, but it also has the tools required to THINK instead of COMPLY when the situation requires it.

We all have the voice to change things if we can overcome both our apathy and our reluctance to take responsibility for our industry practices. Is it really always someone else's job to work these things out? We are highly intelligent and highly skilled individuals who command respect and the general public often listens to us.

However, most unfortunately Dubai and the Middle East is NOT the platform from which to start this revolution - as hard as Dr Nick does try to.
Odins Raven is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 17:00
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Knoteatingham
Posts: 829
Originally Posted by Fuel-Off View Post
I'm rather tired of the 'children of the magenta line' rhetoric. What would you have us (my generation - millennials) do? Get some time on a DC-10? L-1011? No, no they're all retired. Ahh...F27? No, they're mostly all decommissioned too. Oh, the legendary 727? Wait, they're pretty much banned anywhere because those JT8Ds scream too loudly. Or would you prefer us to get some time on the Sud Caravelle? Nope, they're all out of the sky too.

So really, our generation is a result of those aircraft being sent to the scrap heap and having nothing really to cut our teeth on unless it actually has a magenta line. Personally, I would have loved to have flown a 707 or 747SP and do some REAL heavy flying. But valves, mechanical linkages, ducts and IRUs are being replaced with microswitches, FADEC, Fly-by-wire and of course that much belied magenta line.

On the line, impart us with the knowledge of your yesteryears. Everyone loves a good war story so long as we can learn from it. Granted, some Millennials are rather sensitive to constructive criticism, but honestly that is only a few. Don't forget, you guys started from somewhere too. Yes, FOs on the line are expected to demonstrate a degree of proficiency so when the situation turns to the proverbial, everyone gets to go home safely, and line captains aren't exactly expected to 'train' on every flight. But guidance isn't such a bad thing. Whether you like it or not, you're role models for the next generation of captains.

As for instagramming in the flight deck, tell them! It's your flight deck. Like most pilots, we like to chronicle our experiences through our careers. The previous generation had Polaroids, scrapbooks and the like. Our platform is a little bit more instantaneous (and a whole lot more public) which can catch a few off guard when they are asked to explain themselves to Fleet. I for one have been shown photos of FOs who have taken some snaps in delightful places such as Dubai, Kabul, India to name a few, ALL of which photography is strictly prohibited. So it's only a matter of time before they go to Floor Number 3. For what it's worth, I don't have an instagrammy account thingy.

Just a small bit of perspective from this lowly child of the magenta line. Take it or leave it, but this bitter picking on the new generation of pilots is wrong - and too easy. Harry has hit the nail on the head. Primary foundation lies in the trainers.

The real enemy is the one who sits on Floor Number 9...

Fuel-Off
Fair comment as far as you go Fuel Off. I don't think any hairy old git like me is actually blaming Millennials for being children of the magenta line. But it is a fact that the current generation of F/Os (and more and more newly minted Captains) have never had the advantage of flying clockwork gauges on steam driven aircraft. This is generally not an issue when things go exactly to plan, but these experience gaps can translate into safety threats when resilience and lateral thinking may be required in such benign scenarios as weather deviation, diversion, go around etc. Factor in the further lowering of the recruitment experience bar, loss of experience in the left seat and in the checking department, some unforgiving destinations, brutal rostering, big stick emails from the checking department, poor morale and pressure on all departments to cut costs, and the perfect flight safety storm is just about fully developed.
BANANASBANANAS is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 17:05
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 231
Fuel off .. I liked your post ! if only everyone had your willingness to pick up a few tips from the older geezers . Good for you .
Jack D is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 17:29
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AOG
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by Fuel-Off View Post
I'm rather tired of the 'children of the magenta line' rhetoric. What would you have us (my generation - millennials) do? Get some time on a DC-10? L-1011? No, no they're all retired. Ahh...F27? No, they're mostly all decommissioned too. Oh, the legendary 727? Wait, they're pretty much banned anywhere because those JT8Ds scream too loudly. Or would you prefer us to get some time on the Sud Caravelle? Nope, they're all out of the sky too.

So really, our generation is a result of those aircraft being sent to the scrap heap and having nothing really to cut our teeth on unless it actually has a magenta line. Personally, I would have loved to have flown a 707 or 747SP and do some REAL heavy flying. But valves, mechanical linkages, ducts and IRUs are being replaced with microswitches, FADEC, Fly-by-wire and of course that much belied magenta line.

On the line, impart us with the knowledge of your yesteryears. Everyone loves a good war story so long as we can learn from it. Granted, some Millennials are rather sensitive to constructive criticism, but honestly that is only a few. Don't forget, you guys started from somewhere too. Yes, FOs on the line are expected to demonstrate a degree of proficiency so when the situation turns to the proverbial, everyone gets to go home safely, and line captains aren't exactly expected to 'train' on every flight. But guidance isn't such a bad thing. Whether you like it or not, you're role models for the next generation of captains.

As for instagramming in the flight deck, tell them! It's your flight deck. Like most pilots, we like to chronicle our experiences through our careers. The previous generation had Polaroids, scrapbooks and the like. Our platform is a little bit more instantaneous (and a whole lot more public) which can catch a few off guard when they are asked to explain themselves to Fleet. I for one have been shown photos of FOs who have taken some snaps in delightful places such as Dubai, Kabul, India to name a few, ALL of which photography is strictly prohibited. So it's only a matter of time before they go to Floor Number 3. For what it's worth, I don't have an instagrammy account thingy.

Just a small bit of perspective from this lowly child of the magenta line. Take it or leave it, but this bitter picking on the new generation of pilots is wrong - and too easy. Harry has hit the nail on the head. Primary foundation lies in the trainers.

The real enemy is the one who sits on Floor Number 9...

Fuel-Off
Well said! Fire half of costa brigade, anyone pick up the LIS incident that just popped up few hours back??!
EchoKilla is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 18:32
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: 54N
Posts: 29
"anyone pick up the LIS incident that just popped up few hours back??"

What is that all about?
Neektu is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2017, 01:08
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,041
Fuel-Off

Good post. But not everything is lost if, as you demonstrate.

It does not need old equipment to get more proficient. It only takes a look through the magenta/FD. Take the last incident down in India ....
What has been demonstrated is being lost if something shows an unexpected and apparently wrong turn and a desperate attempt to regain the FDs quickly, with a wrong switching and then a religiously following of the two bars almost leading to a stall.
When the magenta does not look right, pick a pitch and heading, check power and fly the big jet like a Cessna (or for that matter a MFS). Let your buddy sort out the electronics and then continue.

It's not rocket science and there's no excuse to stall things with magenta lines.
Pitch, heading and power are and were the same on a Cessna, Caravelle and in a 787/350.
And both will stall if pulling too much for too long!

Your attitude is good start!
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 05:44
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by Neektu View Post
"anyone pick up the LIS incident that just popped up few hours back??"

What is that all about?
777 low enough to blow some roof tiles off a house and damage cars.
Big Enos Burdette is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2017, 06:04
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 48
Posts: 595
Originally Posted by Big Enos Burdette View Post
777 low enough to blow some roof tiles off a house and damage cars.
Who's 777?

Or do we already know that?
The Outlaw is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2017, 06:15
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Not sure any more
Posts: 51
Or do we already know that?
Well going by the current trend at EK for hedge hopping on approach, shouldn't be too hard to work it out!
kipper the dog is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2017, 06:19
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 48
Posts: 595
This is all I could find. I guess it would warrant an ASR if his approach was bad but from what I can see he was "on the numbers", "thrust above idle, proper attitude, and "in the landing configuration"!

Porn played on TV screens at Lisbon Airport as tourists arrive | Daily Mail Online
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 10:47
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 369
Fuel Off : splendid post. Solution is easy but expensive and the bean counters just cannot get past the accounts book. Solution is selection, proper cadet training of basics, build up of the automatics to show that they ease your life and constant reminders that when they go wrong,think back to basics and fly the beast. With autopilot off, autothrust off, the sidesticks are still connected to FCC's and the dummy thrust levers are still not throttles but a few idents to help you get from idle to T/O ,CLB, TOGA etc. Still, click click. So, you are not really flying the beast even then . But, that is the commercial world. Being fooled by the automatics into thinking that you are flying the aircraft can still get you out of horrible auto/messes . Basic pilot skills to fall back on always sorts out the most complex auto situations.


Not too far from MOL's dream of having pilotless aircraft. The welcome on board robot speech reminds pax that it is a fully automatic flight and there are no pilots.It advises," Sit back, relax. Nothing can go wrong (hic) Nothing can go wrong (hic) Nothing can go wrong ...........................".
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 14:13
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UAE
Posts: 950
This all goes back to TCAS and the mantra of using the highest level of automation at all times.

We reap what the management sow.
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 15:25
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
Posts: 770
Actually it came very much from one level up from TCAS, supported by 2 levels below
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Old 1st Oct 2017, 13:59
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Spain
Posts: 95
AF 447, EK521, OZ214, 2 incidents out of Hong Kong in the last couple of months.
All attributed to over reliance on automation. I undertsand an airline wanting the maximum use of Automation on revenue flights but it is clear this is coming at the detrement of manual flying skills.
A friend the other day had to fly an A320 with A/TH M.E.L'd. So the company is happy for you to do it when it suits them financially.

Captains at the very least should be allowed to keep some sort of currency of manual flying. During daylight hours coupled to an ILS for example.
Todays Cadets are going to be Captains one day and will have NEVER flown an airliner manually. If not now there is your accident waiting to happen.

A re-think of this policy is in order.
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