Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

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Old 19th Sep 2017, 03:37
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
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harry
If only the books were left! …. I can't be the only one struggling with the nuances of this computer surely?
Absolutely. They have created a hole of gigantic dimensions on this particular slice of cheese ….


my salami
Yep, but that's balanced by the most experienced F/Os (formerly 330 Skippers)
Bears the question why this one didn’t speak up?
With such a combination, they have created another huge hole …..
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 03:43
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 50
Posts: 2,585
Originally Posted by glofish
my salami
Quote:
Yep, but that's balanced by the most experienced F/Os (formerly 330 Skippers)
Bears the question why this one didn’t speak up?
With such a combination, they have created another huge hole …..
The F/O in this case is not one of the ex 330 Captains...
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 04:31
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 258
Don....spot on.
nothing will change however....It's like a cancer and its even spreading out....
you can see and feel the fear now also in some of the pursers. Not only the senior ones who are now kicked out automatically at the age of 50. Others have become so afraid of being reported or taking a wrong decision....
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 05:52
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UAE
Posts: 159
And the latest email to the training department. Effective immediately.
Spending the last how many years beating everyone with a stick and telling them if they don't like it they can leave. Only to see the experienced guys leave. How to fix the problem? Make the stick bigger.

J.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 06:10
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In the desert
Posts: 123
Beatings will continue until morale improves

Last edited by DuneMentat; 19th Sep 2017 at 06:21.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 06:12
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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morale
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 06:26
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
The F/O in this case is not one of the ex 330 Captains...
You obviously didn't get my sarcasm....
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 06:27
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Inmate of District 11
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Some very interesting points written by the crusty "old boy" crew.

Aviation is a dangerous business, great rewards come from great risk. Sadly it appears that companies seek greater rewards and are willing to take greater risks to achieve those greater rewards. Anyone ever heard something similar to this before > it takes a smoking hole to eventually force change after management denial is finally awoken? In aviation, pilots have warned management for decades of erosion in safety and it always falls on deaf ears. It appears that only the accountants voices can be heard by those who get huge annual bonuses.

The last few years has seen a change in the recruitment requirements, training cutbacks and forced EPT operation, even though almost every pilot thinks it is inadequate for the task. These are just a few changes that have happened to the detriment of Flying Safely.

As a crusty old captain myself, I am heading towards hanging up my wings in a few years. I will admit though that my shoulders are wide enough to do the "right thing" in the cockpit, even though the external pressures can often weigh heavier on the mind while trying to fly safely.

I have no doubt that there are plenty of companies who are on course for a hull loss as the evidence is mounting that the current direction to safety is certainly not the right direction. We live in times where "certain" Pilots barely fly and refuse to fly certain routes (USA for e.g.) and yet feel that their superior position is righteous enough to pass judgement on those that do. In the Middle East there is so much sand that even those up on higher floors can still bury their heads in it.

Fly safe, be suspicious and aware at all times below MSA.


Jack
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 08:17
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 50
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Originally Posted by my salami
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
The F/O in this case is not one of the ex 330 Captains...
You obviously didn't get my sarcasm....
I got your sarcasm. I was replying to glofish, not you. Try rereading
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 09:12
  #70 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
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So, I'm glad it's not just me that thinks the fear culture is making things unsafe.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 10:02
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: guess where
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
So, I'm glad it's not just me that thinks the fear culture is making things unsafe.
No, you are not. But imho has nothing to do with this specific case. This was just a major fcuk up...
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 11:11
  #72 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
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WGU..I agree that the first approach appears ( and as we don't yet know all the facts, I will say appears) to be a super big cluster fcuk, but I'm willing to bet that the reason they failed to land off the second approach was a combination of ' the startle factor' from the first approach AND the thoughts in their head about what was about to happen to them, when they got back to Dubai. BTW, does anyone know if they operated back to Dubai?
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 11:59
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Originally Posted by JAYTO View Post
And the latest email to the training department. Effective immediately.
Spending the last how many years beating everyone with a stick and telling them if they don't like it they can leave. Only to see the experienced guys leave. How to fix the problem? Make the stick bigger.

J.
Let me take a wild guess...

More CHECKING by the
T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G dept
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 12:02
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Knoteatingham
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Originally Posted by JAYTO View Post
And the latest email to the training department. Effective immediately.
Spending the last how many years beating everyone with a stick and telling them if they don't like it they can leave. Only to see the experienced guys leave. How to fix the problem? Make the stick bigger.

J.
I have just read that email. If the author really believes what he has written then my respect for him has gone the same way as our safety record - collapsed!

At a time when empathy, understanding and support are needed they have, instead, chosen to increase the fear factor and use a bigger stick. Isn't that one of the main causal factors of the various incidents and accidents recently? It is like trying to put out a fire by throwing more petrol at it.

This will not end well and is, imho, the worst possible way to deal with the very issues that experienced line operators have been warning of for years. We need to be pulling together not increasing the division between the Checking department and the line pilots.

Before the Checking department decides to conduct no notice line checks on crews, perhaps it should first take a long, hard, inwards look and address the culture of fear that is perceived by the vast majority of line pilots.

It might then ask itself why so many experienced Checkers have left and are continuing to leave the Checking dept, why experienced line Captains with solid wide body TRAINING experience on their resumes are not applying for the Checking positions and why (with no disrespect towards the new Checkers) the vast majority of new Checkers have little time in the LHS with EK and are applying only because they think it will look good on their resumes and aid their departure to pastures new.

This is a bad situation and the email from SVPFT will make things worse.

Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 20th Sep 2017 at 11:49.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 12:08
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Isla Grande
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What about EK-131 on 12. and 13. of Sep?
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 12:10
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Blandings
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Like Amos, I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet but I can tell you what the next development will be:

An FCI prohibiting capturing a glideslope from above. In cases where you find yourself above the glidepath you will be required to ask ATC for vectors back around beneath it.

There. Problem fixed, EK management style.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 12:13
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by Dropp the Pilot View Post
Like Amos, I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet but I can tell you what the next development will be:

An FCI prohibiting capturing a glideslope from above. In cases where you find yourself above the glidepath you will be required to ask ATC for vectors back around beneath it.

There. Problem fixed, EK management style.
And making sure the correct runway (L/R) is in the FMC.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 13:20
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
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.... and they advertise for new trainers! Nice timing.

But just have a look at the minimum conditions: Appalling and QED.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 13:27
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: UAE
Posts: 26
Jack,
I had a little chuckle when you reminded us, to be suspicious.
I recall being berated by a TRI on my command training for, wait for it,,,,
being," over suspiciousa ". ( no typo )

I had him question ATC about an incomplete departure clearance and on the third attempt, DAR ground came back with the correct clearance.

That lovely chap is now a 777 standards TRE!
The basics have long been lost at EK.
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 14:18
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 71
The current trend of events will not be reversed unless training and fleet management do an exercise of introspection and recognise the toxic fear culture and deep organisational issues that contributed to it.

It is appalling that no "leader" took managerial responsibility of 521 by doing the right thing: leaving their job to a more capable individual. And it is particularly worrying how their blindness only lets them take action to continue on the wrong path.

Main problem is that they don't even know or want to recognise there is a problem.

More beatings it is.
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