Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

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Old 17th Sep 2017, 19:17
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Middle East
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Originally Posted by Kobus Dune View Post
Moscow is a very easy destination.

Some people create difficulty : how many times do you find the meters still displayed when getting in the cockpit at DME ? they figure it helps for gross error check during approach, when it's just adding confusion. You don't need meters there, it's not China ...
I totally agree with u Kobus, it was a difficult airport when we first started but then it's far much easier now.
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Old 17th Sep 2017, 22:33
  #42 (permalink)  
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Excellent post fliion, as Don said, nail on the head. 200LR, you are correct. I followed managements advice....I didn't like it...so I left. However, if you seriously believe that the fear culture does not affect a great many of the pilots in EK, either you have not read the hundreds of ' something nearly happened, but it didn't ASRs' ( bird on engine or was nearly unstable, but wasn't, are two examples that come to mind)either that, or you are living in a river in Egypt.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 03:38
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Does it say something about fatigue that it took me a minute to get that one?
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 05:52
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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fliion

I do not always agree, but this was excellent.

Should be a sticky
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 08:35
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dubaigong View Post
The fatigue factor is most probably involved in the Rostov accident BUT far from being enough to fully explain the disaster...
That is very true. There might have been a systems problem. Regardless, it is difficult to comprehend how 340kts, 50 deg nose down, full throttle into the ground can be anything other than cognitive dysfunction.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 11:39
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I had a relatively minor I incident that I believed warranted an ASR for the learning points involved. Flight Safety weren't that interested but my Fleet response was unexpected. I had narrowly avoided punishment apparently and was advised in colourful and expressive language not to be noticed again. I blew it off but on the very next flight the FO hand flew the departure and allowed speed to approach 260 below 5000. I intervened, and he corrected, however I was then preoccupied with wondering what bells just rang in an office somewhere. Sounds ridiculous and that is what I had said in the past to other "paranoid" colleagues. Thats what happens, my ability to function for the next 5 minutes was impared by what others have described as fear. I was surprised to be so easily effected in this way and particularly by a benign event as 260kts....at that point I fully understood the "fear factor".
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 12:12
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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I've heard (from management via a friend) that it was a screw up. There have been a few lately and you have to ask the questions how and why? Is it fatigue? Who knows but they must be worried at hq!
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 13:05
  #48 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
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Thank you for your honesty, PJ. You have just proved my point. The fear culture has perminated the flight deck at EK, and can make it dangerous. I say again..I really feel sorry for those guys in Moscow..fxxk knows what was going through their minds, as I said before, they were sitting there realising that they just went very close to burying themselves.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 13:23
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Praise Jebus View Post
I had a relatively minor I incident that I believed warranted an ASR for the learning points involved. Flight Safety weren't that interested but my Fleet response was unexpected. I had narrowly avoided punishment apparently and was advised in colourful and expressive language not to be noticed again. I blew it off but on the very next flight the FO hand flew the departure and allowed speed to approach 260 below 5000. I intervened, and he corrected, however I was then preoccupied with wondering what bells just rang in an office somewhere. Sounds ridiculous and that is what I had said in the past to other "paranoid" colleagues. Thats what happens, my ability to function for the next 5 minutes was impared by what others have described as fear. I was surprised to be so easily effected in this way and particularly by a benign event as 260kts....at that point I fully understood the "fear factor".
That awful culture of fear you describe is simply is not the case at the small sister airline across the runway. The safety department there, are ever reasonable and supportive. Perhaps your lot should take notes. Perhaps, the deeper concern is the uptake of safety recommendations across the wider operation.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 14:32
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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" the FO hand flew the departure and allowed speed to approach 260 below 5000."


After reading the quote above, I thought to myself:

"Mav, you have the number of that truck driving school we saw on TV? Truck Masters, I think it was? I think I'm gonna need that..."

I can't believe what we have allowed our beloved profession to turn into!

Last edited by lekkeroujan; 18th Sep 2017 at 14:56.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 15:47
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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What PJ describes can be put as one of the root causes for a 777 being parked off piste sans landing gear. The Muppets on the third floor are directly responsible for many of the incidences that happen at this place. They use a HR disciplinary process to relieve themselves of any responsibility of man management. Most EK pilots have no idea what their chief pilot looks like, let alone the deputies, deputy deputy, and the deputy deputy deputy in waiting. They just see signature blockes on emails of warnings and accusation.
To have one of these muppets tell Divertnow all about the guilty [email protected] (hmmmm I wonder which one has a big mouth?) highlights how they have no clue of the responsibilities of their positions.
EK decided some years ago to cheap out and hire everyone with 2000hrs on a barbyjet rather than pay market rates and continue to hire pilots with experience. They cut training to bare minimum from what it was before. And relied on a modern fleet to protect it from this lack of experience they were embracing. All the time, those that did have some experience left for pastures mostly more Asian. The ratio of experienced to junior pilots tilted in a major way to the junior side. Management (sic) were warned of this at any meeting that they attended, but this was met with "If you don't like it leave!". And pilots have. We now have these 2000hr barbyjet pilots as TRI/TREs after only the minimum required time as a line pilot. These pilots have been dealt a tampered hand. At no time have these pilots been given an opportunity to learn the trade. They never had the chance to sit watch and learn from experienced pilots. How can they be expected to have the tools to fall back on when operating fatigued, back of the clock, or in new situations.
How can EK expect the incident rate not to increase? It is of their own doing.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 16:13
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Jack330 View Post
This is serious stuff ! Close to CFIT ! It's not going to end well and as usual, it will be well hidden to the public, just like the 777 f...k up
Too late....

Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 17:31
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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To think that a Training Department in an International Airline would have to train Pitch +Power = Performance is a BIG concern. At what point in a pilots career should this be learned, I suggest PPL not post ATPL type Rating or recurrent training.
If you look at the standard leaving the ATO's I think you'll find that Pitch + Power = Perf is not something that's really taught any more - at least not in the early parts of the syllabus. Pitch and power considerations ought to be introduced very early on (even E of C) however I don't believe it is these days. Student pilots at large integrated schools are not taught to think for themselves any more either sadly.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 18:05
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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If you look at the standard leaving the ATO's I think you'll find that Pitch + Power = Perf is not something that's really taught any more - at least not in the early parts of the syllabus. Pitch and power considerations ought to be introduced very early on (even E of C) however I don't believe it is these days. Student pilots at large integrated schools are not taught to think for themselves any more either sadly.
Question bank is what the ATPLs are about, memorise and regurgitate without question. No time. I get over 90 in some tests and I'll be the first to admit I don't have a notion about most of the stuff. However I think this is a regulatory issue rather than the schools, we all know we're being taught the most irrelevant stuff whilst the relevant stuff is pushed to the side. Hopefully once fully finished the ground school I'll learn something relevant!
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 18:08
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Well said don

You will however be regarded as an arrogant old [email protected], like me, tribute to the majority now being inexperienced young sopjunkies who know nothing more than ….. sops.
Basically it’s not their fault, they don’t even know that common aviation sense exists, have never seen nor experienced it. My latest 3 days of simjoy were a perfect reflection of that. EBT my @ss, only OMs and SOPs ad nauseam, the victim was common sense, all of that indictive of lack of experience and realism.
The reaction of management (and unfortunately even training) shows where the problem sits and that the cause is most probably lost. At least with the existing team. For some time I thought that the fish only rots from its head, but even if AAR would be sacked, the fish’s intestins have been infected that only a complete reset can help.
It won’t happen though, the big Zampanoes will continue to blame the lazy pilots who should only follow the holy grail of their pamphlets, then Emirates will be great again.

It is hard for all colleague pilots to accept this. I have said this many times before, there's little excuse for a [email protected] like this one. All mentioned, like fatigue, low minimums for applications, bad or insufficient training are contributing factors and make the company accomplice for incidents or accidents. But basically the pilot is there to avoid such incidents.
We all know that every eager young pilot would take up any opportunity to upgrade himself, and didn’t we all overestimate ourselves when young and inexperienced? That’s when the more experienced instructors and the old farts on the line reigned us in. That’s when the recruiters told us to go on with where we were, learn a little more before aspiring higher. Today young and aspiring pilots are faced with their peers that left the same outfit yesterday, with only a few days more experience, who readily team up with the greedy beancounters who more than willingly believe these young (and most importantly cheap) gods with shiny almost new 4 stripes and a brand new star how good they are and their applying fraternity brothers just as much. No one left to guide, advise, teach and warn.

The early warning cycle is broken, only the books left.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 19:46
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Glo

If only the books were left! Even they've no longer, rapidly being replaced by tablets that are far from ideal. In the haste for administrative efficiency, the end user is all but forgotten. Knowledge of procedures and aircraft systems will deteriorate over the next few years....guaranteed! As well as that, we're expected to use a device, integral to the operation and management of the aircraft, without any formal training or checking in its understanding or application. I can't be the only one struggling with the nuances of this computer surely?

Harry
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 20:20
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4ae84b8a&opt=0




Somehow, in clear weather, they got within 400 ft of the ground without noticing it, or taking preventative action, and this was 8 miles from the airport! I suspect there were passengers on this flight that had better situational awareness than the pilots.

Last edited by Talparc; 18th Sep 2017 at 21:38.
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Old 18th Sep 2017, 21:31
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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a few years ago you had the most experienced captains on the 380, now the least experienced
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 00:47
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Talparc
Somehow, in clear weather, they got within 400 ft of the ground without noticing it
It's a fairly featureless terrain and covered in forest. In the dark you just won't see how high you are from the ground!
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 01:41
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GoreTex View Post
a few years ago you had the most experienced captains on the 380, now the least experienced
Yep, but that's balanced by the most experienced F/Os (formerly 330 Skipoers)
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