Upgrade Times in the pit
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Upgrade Times in the pit
A good mate has asked me about my time in the sandpit as he's keen to move onto bigger metal, and earn some cash. Ive given as much info as I can re lifestyle, corporate culture, rosters etc.
I couldn't help with upgrade times though. He's B757/767, so most likely heading for B777 or B787 (very unlikely that he'd apply for Fly Dubai but you never know) at one of the three/four. What are the current best estimates for someone joining now at the four.
My synopsis of the current situation (a little out of touch having left 2 years ago) was:
EK - Hard work, better place to live, probably most professionally run of the three having been around longer and more western management. DXB probably best of the three.
EY - Easier life roster wise, AUH is nice with DXB up the road. Haemorrhaging money, so commands is a real guess.
QR - Good $. 6-7 years for cmd. Doha is ok, but not great. Harsh management. Tough rosters.
FZ - I didn't comment as I know so little about them.
Is this fairly accurate? Any further suggestions please add. I am trying to give as balanced a view as possible.
Thanks!
I couldn't help with upgrade times though. He's B757/767, so most likely heading for B777 or B787 (very unlikely that he'd apply for Fly Dubai but you never know) at one of the three/four. What are the current best estimates for someone joining now at the four.
My synopsis of the current situation (a little out of touch having left 2 years ago) was:
EK - Hard work, better place to live, probably most professionally run of the three having been around longer and more western management. DXB probably best of the three.
EY - Easier life roster wise, AUH is nice with DXB up the road. Haemorrhaging money, so commands is a real guess.
QR - Good $. 6-7 years for cmd. Doha is ok, but not great. Harsh management. Tough rosters.
FZ - I didn't comment as I know so little about them.
Is this fairly accurate? Any further suggestions please add. I am trying to give as balanced a view as possible.
Thanks!
short flights long nights
This could prove interesting.........
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Regarding time to upgrade in Ek.
Ek is having 4203 pilots total as per sep.2017. Through many years hiring around 500 pilots per year. 2015 550 pilots. 2016 350 pilots, and only 120 pilots so far this year.
Things are slowing down here. Maybe 20+ aircraft parked up, and new arriving aircrafts replacing older aircrafts.
Since the company has become extremely cost cutting oriented Im sure they will not upgrade unless needed. 100-200 pilots leaving a year, with a few retirements along them. Basically the pilot work force has declined by around 50 this year in total.
So unless things are going to change over the next coming years with regards to expansion, which I truly doubt, given the marked today, a new joiner is looking at a upgrade time very close to the good old days in other normal carriers.——-long long time.
I think most ek pilots will agree to this, at least the number above is dead on facts, so you can do your own math if you fancy.
Ek is having 4203 pilots total as per sep.2017. Through many years hiring around 500 pilots per year. 2015 550 pilots. 2016 350 pilots, and only 120 pilots so far this year.
Things are slowing down here. Maybe 20+ aircraft parked up, and new arriving aircrafts replacing older aircrafts.
Since the company has become extremely cost cutting oriented Im sure they will not upgrade unless needed. 100-200 pilots leaving a year, with a few retirements along them. Basically the pilot work force has declined by around 50 this year in total.
So unless things are going to change over the next coming years with regards to expansion, which I truly doubt, given the marked today, a new joiner is looking at a upgrade time very close to the good old days in other normal carriers.——-long long time.
I think most ek pilots will agree to this, at least the number above is dead on facts, so you can do your own math if you fancy.
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Anyone joining now on the 777 will have more than 1000 guys ahead of them. With no real expansion of the fleet the next few years even with a good 100 upgrades/year that would be 10 years.
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Does that include all the ones on PPRUNe moaning, that will presumably leave?
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A380, been here 5 years, got 2 more to go to upgrade.
Having said that I'm only 33 so not grown-up enough to handle the 4th bar...
Did two years on the 330 to start with now guys more than one year junior to me who went directly onto the 380 are interviewing.
Off to spit my dummy out in protest.
Flex
Having said that I'm only 33 so not grown-up enough to handle the 4th bar...
Did two years on the 330 to start with now guys more than one year junior to me who went directly onto the 380 are interviewing.
Off to spit my dummy out in protest.
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flydubai for reference. Ranging from 18mnths up to 3 or 4 years. Minimum age for upgrade now 28. So a very junior guy can do it in 18mnths, and it has been done on quite a few occasions. However with all the hoops to jump through here and pure luck regarding the simulator assesment markers most guys take between 2-3 years. Many FO's also choose not to upgrade due to the shift in rosters between left and right seat. Company is now starting to force guys to upgrade though. A senior Captain (5yrs ish at FDB) will still not have anywhere near the roster of a 2 yr FO. Company aims to upgrade 6 guys per month but unfortunately reqruiting more and more DEC's. 750 pilots and 55 ish 737's. Currently around 60 Boeings by years end with one new one coming every month for the next few years.
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Unfortunately or not, attrition does seem to actually help with time to command for newbies at EK - slightly less competition. It took a couple of guys I know around 5 years and it was a quick 5 years. Not sure whether that will keep being the case, as agree with Besser that things seem to be slowing down.
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pomme pilot
As one of the more positive posters on these threads, I think it important you're aware of how dynamic the Middle East can be, especially in regards to contracts, policies and procedures. Not just in aviation, but in all dealings here.
Like the forever changing sands of the desert, policies can change here overnight. This has the potential to really effect your quality of life, not only for you but also your family. The old adage 'happy wife, happy life' still holds true and is perhaps more important when you move away from your home Country and from trusted family support. I've seen far too many of my colleagues lose their marriage and family, some of which is directly attributable to work related issues and pressures. Simply, EK could be a truly great Company but is prevented from being so by an autocratic style of senior management assisted by unsupportive middle management. A large number of this management team have little integrity or intent to help, nor do they carry the real responsibility that their titles would imply. There are some exceptions, some really good and caring individuals that are professional and personal, but it's the bad ones that leave the bitter taste. That creates dissatisfaction and disengagement amongst an increasing number of pilots. It is my belief that this disinterest leads to negativity on the flight deck and the erosion of professional standards. We're now seeing that attitude pervade into operational events. Nobody wants to go to work and do a bad job but unless you're motivated and engaged, subconsciously your performance will be under par. Without wishing to sound dramatic, if both pilots adopt a similar laissez fair behaviour on the day, the holes will line up, no doubt about it.
For a large number of the workforce, and particularly pilots, things work out well and EK provides a good solid basis for employment. Despite current concerns, it's a solid Company with a strong brand and most importantly, pays every month on time. However, if you're unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, life can be very different. The point being that you may join with the policy in your favour but by the following week, it's changed. The upgrade policy we have is not only the most convoluted and complicated, but also the most unreasonable. Age is a poor benchmark for competency full stop. What you need as a Commander is maturity, not age. The two are completely unrelated. To lose the potential of some great talent, purely on the basis of one's age is completely illogical. Compound this policy by making the age different for aircraft types and the policy becomes even more ridiculous. 32 for a B777 but you'll need another 3 for the 380? Why? Either you're suitable to command a commercial aircraft or you're not, regardless of how many passengers it holds. Unless of course you consider our customers more precious on the Super jet!
Policies such as this destroy morale, trust and above all, undermine the whole upgrade and training process, a process in which reports from experienced and knowledgable TRE's should form the basis of suitability, not the EVP Flight Operations who's never sat in a cockpit all his life. Micro management such as this is as much a reflection on a senior manger's own shortcomings as it is on those ineffective and unassertive managers below them.
FLEX/MCT
You have my full empathy for your situation and wish you well when your turn eventually comes....if you're still here that is!
Harry
As one of the more positive posters on these threads, I think it important you're aware of how dynamic the Middle East can be, especially in regards to contracts, policies and procedures. Not just in aviation, but in all dealings here.
Like the forever changing sands of the desert, policies can change here overnight. This has the potential to really effect your quality of life, not only for you but also your family. The old adage 'happy wife, happy life' still holds true and is perhaps more important when you move away from your home Country and from trusted family support. I've seen far too many of my colleagues lose their marriage and family, some of which is directly attributable to work related issues and pressures. Simply, EK could be a truly great Company but is prevented from being so by an autocratic style of senior management assisted by unsupportive middle management. A large number of this management team have little integrity or intent to help, nor do they carry the real responsibility that their titles would imply. There are some exceptions, some really good and caring individuals that are professional and personal, but it's the bad ones that leave the bitter taste. That creates dissatisfaction and disengagement amongst an increasing number of pilots. It is my belief that this disinterest leads to negativity on the flight deck and the erosion of professional standards. We're now seeing that attitude pervade into operational events. Nobody wants to go to work and do a bad job but unless you're motivated and engaged, subconsciously your performance will be under par. Without wishing to sound dramatic, if both pilots adopt a similar laissez fair behaviour on the day, the holes will line up, no doubt about it.
For a large number of the workforce, and particularly pilots, things work out well and EK provides a good solid basis for employment. Despite current concerns, it's a solid Company with a strong brand and most importantly, pays every month on time. However, if you're unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, life can be very different. The point being that you may join with the policy in your favour but by the following week, it's changed. The upgrade policy we have is not only the most convoluted and complicated, but also the most unreasonable. Age is a poor benchmark for competency full stop. What you need as a Commander is maturity, not age. The two are completely unrelated. To lose the potential of some great talent, purely on the basis of one's age is completely illogical. Compound this policy by making the age different for aircraft types and the policy becomes even more ridiculous. 32 for a B777 but you'll need another 3 for the 380? Why? Either you're suitable to command a commercial aircraft or you're not, regardless of how many passengers it holds. Unless of course you consider our customers more precious on the Super jet!
Policies such as this destroy morale, trust and above all, undermine the whole upgrade and training process, a process in which reports from experienced and knowledgable TRE's should form the basis of suitability, not the EVP Flight Operations who's never sat in a cockpit all his life. Micro management such as this is as much a reflection on a senior manger's own shortcomings as it is on those ineffective and unassertive managers below them.
FLEX/MCT
You have my full empathy for your situation and wish you well when your turn eventually comes....if you're still here that is!
Harry
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Yes Harry, the company pays on time every month, but lesser and lesser in terms of buying power since they are
1. Not always giving the step increase
2. Not adjusting the whole pay scale for inflation.
Not to forget the new deductions such as soon paying for mandatory vaccinations (confirmed by my AME). What's the next move, paying for the uniform?
Even if you come here with a relatively long plan, let's say 15 years and last that long, it's a hell of a difference in total salary over that time if you spend 5 years as FO and 10 as captain, compare to the other way around.
1. Not always giving the step increase
2. Not adjusting the whole pay scale for inflation.
Not to forget the new deductions such as soon paying for mandatory vaccinations (confirmed by my AME). What's the next move, paying for the uniform?
Even if you come here with a relatively long plan, let's say 15 years and last that long, it's a hell of a difference in total salary over that time if you spend 5 years as FO and 10 as captain, compare to the other way around.
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And now, if you have the slightest repeat on your sim in the 2 years before they review you for command you get delayed. Even though you are told in the sim "this won't affect your upgrade". Happened to a good friend of mine last week.
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There must have been more than just that "single" repeat!
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True story. Mate of mine delayed by a year cos of a repeat, 4 PPCs previously, nothing since. Seems daft, but shows even more their lack of trust in us and the lack of trust in their own training department.
short flights long nights
They will raise the command age to 45 shortly.