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EK / Seychelles near miss - 14 July '17

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EK / Seychelles near miss - 14 July '17

Old 23rd Jul 2017, 16:37
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Basil
Not whilst operating but I recollect a statuesque brunette young lady FO who, unable to sleep, sat cross legged on the jump seat for a little while wearing her 'Baby doll' pyjamas
We WERE in the cruise and remained fully task orientated throughout.
Damn, I'm working for the wrong company......
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 07:50
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Well none of us were there so who knows what really happened...... my only comment is that the EK pilot wasn't exactly easy to understand. We aussie's always talk too fast and many people comment that we are difficult to understand. Especially in this part of the world, slowing down your radio calls is very important.
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 10:21
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I trust he wasn't wearing baby doll pyjamas
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 10:22
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sealear
Well none of us were there so who knows what really happened...... my only comment is that the EK pilot wasn't exactly easy to understand. We aussie's always talk too fast and many people comment that we are difficult to understand. Especially in this part of the world, slowing down your radio calls is very important.
Agreed. Recollect story of Texan listening to machine gun clearance delivery to previous aircraft and transmitting: "***** ready for clearance an' ah write as slow as ah talk."
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 14:39
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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..For the majority of us,listening to the video audio in post #1, it sounds an appalling lack of SA...plenty of clues,after the initial mistake...( which we all can,and do make)
When do we need to be giving our utmost attention to ATC..I would say,obviously at all times,but especially in climb and descent....
"They may have been distracted"!..huh..that is what the simulator is supposed to teach us...
To me this is about discipline...and,how not to operate...and I'm mister average,trying to improve...

And,lets not get on to the subject of the ever increasing omission of the words,"Flight Level"in climb and descent clearances,by both pilots and controllers.
I'm guessing that there is an ever increasing lack of imagination of what can go wrong,amongst us!..Frightening!
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 14:52
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps complacency is an appropriate word.
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 19:05
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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brakedwell, Yawstring

Careful guys! You might run into the self appointed pprune police (who might refer again to what exactly pprune means).

Apparently we should never speculate on these pages (review meaning of rumour ....), we should never mention any opinion (apparently it's like something everyone has ...) before there has been a thorough investigation (that is certainly neither tainted nor vetted by the participating companies, manufacturers, authorities, thus extremely trustworthy ....), we should never point at an eventual mistake of any colleagues, because we don't know what was heard in the cockpit, but it is legitimate to incriminate ATC, because apparently we know exactly (through the same tape!) what the controller had heard .....

i know what some on here mean by that. It's Monday morning quarterbacking. And this is open to criticism, sure enough.
But that's all it is on these pages, or it would be a NTSB/FAA homepage (or any equivalent)!

Sure enough we can't trust tapes or other witnessing media 100%, but can we trust reports from involved agencies? I have once been involved with a serious incident a couple of years before and the report does not come close enough to the truth I had experienced. Even today there is still speculation about the incident, almost as vividly as the first day after, with similar dissenting contributions and a lot of voices trying to shut the others up for apparently not having the full picture. Who has?

We never have. But as long as these threads are rumours among professional pilots, we should be allowed to speculate, to have an opinion, to put it on here. You can always dissent, contradict and have another one, but as to today we are not in Turkey, Iran or North Korea. We are free to do so, otherwise close down this site.

I truly believe that we can learn in reading dissenting opinions if we don't just cry them down because we don't like them.
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 19:27
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Yaw String
"They may have been distracted"!..huh..that is what the simulator is supposed to teach us...
To me this is about discipline...and,how not to operate...
Another skygod in our midst!

Tell me, how art thou?
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 21:12
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Glofish, many years ago similar incidents occurred in the same airspace as where this event happened. It always occurred because the aircraft at top of descent was at the limit of VHF range. Sometimes what they thought they heard was not what was said. When being the departing aircraft I caught the error in the clearance, and asked ATC to confirm it. ATC never seemed to catch it, perhaps the same issue? Anyhow, a new procedure was introduced then that the departing aircraft would be given a radial to fly to his right of the airway, and the arriving aircraft kept on the airway (best not confuse due to poor radio right?). This gave both lateral and vertical separation. Worked a treat. But now the wheel has turned.

We can complain about ATC as they did not check the clearance read back by the crew. The air Seychelles Crew heard the wrong readback and said nothing. Who knows how much of the traffic information they heard. Perhaps only the lower when passing bit? Dunno as I wasn't there. But I do know this Crew and the air Seychelles Crew has flown around the world a few times before this and I haven't been reading about them before. It would seem the EK Crew flew the clearance they believed was theirs. TCAS wise the air Seychelles Crew had more warning as they were expecting the Ek Crew to stop at 380, the Ek Crew would have only noticed the other aircraft still climbing after they had already leveled (air Seychelles reported at 359 right?). Remember airbus TCAS can display 9000 feet above when in above (used in climb) and 9000 feet below when in below (used in descent). The 380 TCAS would have a range advantage 100nm instead of 40nm, but in this case that is mute as the climb above the expected 350 would have happened at a much closer range. The 380 was 2000 feet lower to where air Seychelles was expecting it to be. The 330 was just crossing the expected ALT at the same time.

No one is golden here. But the incident would not have happened if a tried and tested procedure was not abandoned and if ATC had done his job to correct a wrongly readback clearance. The fact it was not corrected by ATC helped confirm to the EK Crew they were flying the correct clearance. Which we armchair legends know they were not.

Last edited by donpizmeov; 25th Jul 2017 at 07:52.
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 22:22
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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What Don said.
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 09:02
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Another member of the "Don" > good post society here. I think I will need to buy him a beer before too long as I'm agreeing too often with Don's point of view(s).

J
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 17:12
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Don
Good post, I agree, compared to others …..

But I still have a bone or two to chew:

1. You state about ATC:

- ATC never seemed to catch it, perhaps the same issue?
- We can complain about ATC as they did not check the clearance read back by the crew.
- But the incident would not have happened if a tried and tested procedure was not abandoned and if ATC had done his job to correct a wrongly readback clearance
and about EK 703:

Who knows how much of the traffic information they heard
It so seems that our crew gets the benefit of the doubt of maybe having misunderstood a transmission. But do you give the same benefit to ATC?
Reading your statement it seems not.
Isn’t that a tad unfair towards the controller?

2. Let’s read the following transmissions:

- ATC: Emirates 703 expect lower after passing Seychelles 054, Airbus 332 climbing to FL370, passing time 1307, report sighting and passing
- EK 703: Emirates 703 roger.
EK acknowledges the traffic information with a “roger”, indicating to the controller that they have understood. There was no further clarification or other action. The traffic information however appears quite clear.
I can only think of two explanations:
Either they did not comprehend the traffic information, which would indicate a poor situational awareness, or they did not understand it and simply said “roger” to carry on, which would indicate a dangerous complacency (by the way, they never reported any sighting or passing).
Any uncertainty should have been clarified, any correct comprehension should have triggered a reconfirmation of the levels cleared.

You finally say:

No one is golden here
I agree, and I have never pretended that this would not happen to me or other Bruce’s!! But this should not prevent us to try to analyse the event objectively, for the sake of enhancing safety, even without a (most probably very, very late) final report.

Last edited by glofish; 25th Jul 2017 at 19:51.
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 18:12
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by glofish
even without a (most probably very, very late) final report.
C,mon Glo. You saying that the Mauritian CAA (GCAA, DGCA, xxAA whatever it may be) will be slower than some agencies closer to our hub?
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 19:49
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, and in the mean time we're still waiting for anything from our 521 ......
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Old 26th Jul 2017, 02:01
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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So Glofish goes from making the assumption that a YouTube audio that we heard means they heard

Post 19:
"The easiest one was when HEARING the clearance for the opposing aircraft to climb to FL370. The next by the apparently not observing the oncoming and conflicting TCAS symbol."

They heard ? Really? As if he knows what they heard or saw.

"Simply these two omissions point to an irresponsible lack of SA. "

To now:

---
"Don
Good post, I agree, compared to others …..

Quote:
"No one is golden here
I agree, and I have never pretended that this would not happen to me or other Bruce’s!! But this should not prevent us to try to analyse the event objectively, for the sake of enhancing safety, even without a (most probably very, very late) final report."

---

Objectively! But apparently HE knows what they 'heard' because HE heard it on YouTube. So PC of him now from the opinionated bull shine he was spewing earlier.

And Jack shidt has gone from:

"I would say that it's poor listening "actively" skills and not properly processing/understanding/questioning what's being said is more likely the issue here."

To:

"I think I will need to buy him a beer before too long as I'm agreeing too often with Don's point of view(s)."

Don said:

"No one is golden here. But the incident would not have happened if a tried and tested procedure was not abandoned and if ATC had done his job to correct a wrongly readback clearance. The fact it was not corrected by ATC helped confirm to the EK Crew they were flying the correct clearance. Which we armchair legends know they were not."

---

Subtle boys - two course reversals advertised as straight in.

Last edited by fliion; 26th Jul 2017 at 02:12.
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Old 26th Jul 2017, 02:12
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Funny how that happens...I'll never understand why pilots are so quick to judge and/or vilify other pilots when they should know better than anyone that the information from the public or media is suspect at best when it comes to aviation.
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Old 26th Jul 2017, 06:15
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Glofish, I don't think it is too hard on ATC. When the EK Crew get a transmission about the traffic they can't understand they say it's unreadable and asked for it again.
When the EK Crew read back the wrong level ATC says nothing. So if he didn't hear the read back he should have asked for a read back of a clearance. If he did hear it he should have corrected it. If he was unsure of what he heard he should have said so and asked them to say again. By not saying anything he confirmed to the crew their read back was correct.
All the time air Seychelles heard all of that and said nothing.

The traffic information call by ATC was at first unreadable by the crew. Remember edge of VHF range. They tell the controller this and ask him to say again. The controller does so, but at the same speed as the first Non readable transmission. You have been there I am sure. You listen in hard, make out what you can, look across at the other pilot who says “”lower after crossing” . Sounds reasonable and makes sense. You reply Roger. After all you read back your clearance and no-one corrected it right?
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Old 26th Jul 2017, 07:50
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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When the EK Crew read back the wrong level ATC says nothing
He might have understood 380, just as EK might have understood 360 before. Both might have fallen into the trap of "hearing" what they expected.
Bad reception on edge of VHF range goes both ways .....

So if he didn't hear the read back he should have asked for a read back of a clearance.
He might have heard it, but might thought he heard 380 .....
If he did hear it he should have corrected it.
He probably heard it and might have heard 380 if he did not ask for a correction .....

If he was unsure of what he heard he should have said so and asked them to say again.
He might have been sure having heard 380 ......

By not saying anything he confirmed to the crew their read back was correct.
Absolutely true. Could be "hearing" what he expected or complacency. I am not defending him, but at the same time not simply putting the whole blame on him. The benefit of the doubt should remain for both sides, as the doubt of complacency.

All the time air Seychelles heard all of that and said nothing
Again, VHF range, bad reception should be taken into account for them as well. At the time of the initial clearance ATC to EK, they might not have known on what airway EK flew, so could at that time not detect any conflict.

We are turning in circles, i know, and i am not easily and unilaterally putting blame on fellow pilots, please! I am however not ready to simply put it on ATC as well. There were sufficient clues for both sides to deconflict and they were not seized. Commanders are responsible for safe flights and controllers for separation. Both failed to do their job to some extent. 35+ years of world wide aviation and 10+ years in EK give me a certain picture though when listening to the tape and i stand by my opinion.
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Old 26th Jul 2017, 08:36
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But Glofish you used words like “irresponsible lack of SA” and incompetent” when referring to the EK Crew. But now you seem to understand that all is not black and white.
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Old 26th Jul 2017, 09:25
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On the positive side Don he's displaying flexibility... The term "Roger" has no place in R/T, unless Roger is your buddy and you say hello
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