EK / Seychelles near miss - 14 July '17
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None of you sky gods have any idea what actually happened. You think the media has the whole and accurate picture? You don't know what could be heard on any frequency by any of the people involved or what was going on in either flight deck or in the ATC office. Why is it so easy for some of you to sit back and judge someone else after the fact despite not really knowing any of the details or facts? Shouldn't we all just wait to see what comes out of this at the end and learn something in the process.
How much evidence do you need? The recording is enough. ATC cleared him to FL 380, he read back FL 360. MISTAKE #1
ATC did not challenge mistake #1...which brings us to MISTAKE #2.
There is tons of evidence where proper RT and radio discipline is paramount...think Tenerife.
Right, wrong or otherwise this is a subject VERY worth of discussion even on this site. If it changes just one pilot's radio discipline for the better then mission accomplished.
We are in a business that learns from the mistakes of others...sadly, sometimes that comes with a death toll. Anything we as pilots can do to learn without the loss of life or equipment is not only a benefit, but its our responsibility.
This was a FUK up... as professionals, lets do our best to ensure it doesn't happen again.
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I am led to understand that the pilots both possess their "own" versions of the English language, shouldn't be a factor in this case though.
J
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Guessing your 'Perth' related name explains it
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Outlaw,
My point is that any recording doesn't tell us what they actually heard in the flight deck. How readable was it? None of us know. What I do know from personal experience is that ATC quality southbound after Muscat is sketchy at best. Does 466601 ring a bell? I've been on frequency with another aircraft that couldn't hear ATC at all even though it was perfectly clear to me. Does that mean the other pilot lacked SA or basic airmanship? I think not. None of us know what they were able to hear. The recording is of the transmission, not the reception. That's my point. So let's stop pointing fingers like we have any idea what really happened to lead to this series of ultimately non events.
My point is that any recording doesn't tell us what they actually heard in the flight deck. How readable was it? None of us know. What I do know from personal experience is that ATC quality southbound after Muscat is sketchy at best. Does 466601 ring a bell? I've been on frequency with another aircraft that couldn't hear ATC at all even though it was perfectly clear to me. Does that mean the other pilot lacked SA or basic airmanship? I think not. None of us know what they were able to hear. The recording is of the transmission, not the reception. That's my point. So let's stop pointing fingers like we have any idea what really happened to lead to this series of ultimately non events.
Mos
Having gone from front to back of this thread there's been very little in the way of finger pointing, and much more in the way of soul searching along the lines of "how could this have happened?"
I don't get your defensiveness, regardless of the circumstances we, yes we bear ultimate responsibility for our crew, our passengers and for 99% of the time our outcomes.
MRU along with half a hundred other 3rd world "destinations" are high threat environments, even on your worst day I'd expect and demand the best from my colleague regarding their SA and anticipation skills. TBH I thought, given the nature of this that it was a training flight or something similar, but it appears that it wasn't.
To summarise my thoughts I'll leave you with this thought, would the crew have been in the same frame of mind going into Lagos or perhaps Addis? for me personally, I'd like to think so, but based on the outcome, I'm far from sure.
My point is that any recording doesn't tell us what they actually heard in the flight deck. How readable was it? None of us know. What I do know from personal experience is that ATC quality southbound after Muscat is sketchy at best. Does 466601 ring a bell? I've been on frequency with another aircraft that couldn't hear ATC at all even though it was perfectly clear to me. Does that mean the other pilot lacked SA or basic airmanship? I think not. None of us know what they were able to hear. The recording is of the transmission, not the reception. That's my point. So let's stop pointing fingers like we have any idea what really happened to lead to this series of ultimately non events.
I don't get your defensiveness, regardless of the circumstances we, yes we bear ultimate responsibility for our crew, our passengers and for 99% of the time our outcomes.
MRU along with half a hundred other 3rd world "destinations" are high threat environments, even on your worst day I'd expect and demand the best from my colleague regarding their SA and anticipation skills. TBH I thought, given the nature of this that it was a training flight or something similar, but it appears that it wasn't.
To summarise my thoughts I'll leave you with this thought, would the crew have been in the same frame of mind going into Lagos or perhaps Addis? for me personally, I'd like to think so, but based on the outcome, I'm far from sure.
Classic swiss cheese with thankfully the final holes not aligned. I am sure in time honoured EK fashion the sole blame will be attached to the crew but there are other factors not least some seriously poor ATC. I am sure a reflection on EK crew fight hours and associated fatigue will not be part of the 'wash up'. Who hasn't made an error while seriously tired or fatigued? I have been in a similar type situation in the past due ATC cock up and ourselves and the intruding and opposite aircraft manoeuvred to avoid even with vertical separation. I didn't think then nor now that it was particularly heroic, just common sense.
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Really? Is the other guy supposed to sit with hands on controls staring out the window telling the crew not to speak while over the ocean on CPDLC? Are you one of these guys who reads FMAs and states that the autopilot is engaged as part of his 'I'm going to the ****ter' brief?
Guessing your 'Perth' related name explains it
Guessing your 'Perth' related name explains it
When you are the PIC, do whatever you want, sit sideways facing back the cabin crew and talk to them as much as you wish, you may even leave your seat and do more...but if not.....respect the one who is responsible and trusted you the airplane and all onboard.
And my name is Marques.....by the way!
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Sadly that's pretty much standard for expats at non-union third world airlines. 
The controller knows this and tries to get SEY054 to not report the incident.
Language skills seem fine to me. It's normal to have several accents with international crews and destinations. However, as others have pointed out, we don't know if Emirates could hear the controller very well, he asked to have a couple of transmissions repeated.
The controller knows this and tries to get SEY054 to not report the incident.
Language skills seem fine to me. It's normal to have several accents with international crews and destinations. However, as others have pointed out, we don't know if Emirates could hear the controller very well, he asked to have a couple of transmissions repeated.
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He may not be, what you say, like me, he is just a professional captain, that when leaving the FD, delegates full control, communications and flight management to the FO, and in respect to him, the FO must act professionally.
When you are the PIC, do whatever you want, sit sideways facing back the cabin crew and talk to them as much as you wish, you may even leave your seat and do more...but if not.....respect the one who is responsible and trusted you the airplane and all onboard.
And my name is Marques.....by the way!
When you are the PIC, do whatever you want, sit sideways facing back the cabin crew and talk to them as much as you wish, you may even leave your seat and do more...but if not.....respect the one who is responsible and trusted you the airplane and all onboard.
And my name is Marques.....by the way!
The guys going to MRU should have had major alarm bells ringing in a non radar environment with traffic cleared through your level. That isn't a time I'd be having a good chat with the FG1.. all common sense, something that seems to be totally lacking in EK.
Instead we have guys briefing that the autopilot is engaged before the go to the bathroom and briefing the runway width, PAPI angles into Dubai believing they are being safer/professional when in reality the other person is rolling their eyes and/or fast asleep.
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Outlaw
We don't seem to agree on much these days but I do agree with your recent comments. There is a growing apathetic and complacent culture growing among our colleagues, however, I do not hold the Company entirely responsible. Huge strides have been made through recurrent classroom training and in the simulator to reinforce airmanship, big picture and basic professional standards. We have moved a long way forward from 7-10 years ago. Unfortunately, with the improvement in training has come a commensurate reduction in experience along with a general culture of relaxed indifference. Generational? Maybe, although I have flown with some super new guys who are very switched on. Unfortunately, the variation of standards is definitely growing.
Obsessive use of phones throughout all aspects of the flight, from briefing to hotel reception, spending all ULR flights in pyjamas, paperwork in climb, non standard R/T, not wearing uniform correctly, poor PA's. The list could go on. While some may see this as the ramblings of a typical grumpy old fart, I see it as an insidious decline in professional attitude. It is incumbent on all of us to maintain those standards and reinforce it to those intent on intentionally or unintentionally ignoring them.
It does not mean having to promote a dour and autocratic environment, far from it. It's for us to create and promote a relaxed yet professional work ethos that maintains minimum standards. That tone is set at the briefing and should continue throughout the flight. This airline has never been one to promote feedback yet this is the only way we can improve or be made aware of the things that we do wrong. It's also a way to reinforce the good we observe, not just the negative. It does take effort, and requires motivated and knowledgable crew to do so. 99% of the guys finish with a 'thank you' and hand shake regardless of the flights events. That's not enough.
If people are never told, they'll never learn. To achieve the goal of reaching and maintaining the high standards we strive for, surely we must all play a role in its facilitation.
Harry
We don't seem to agree on much these days but I do agree with your recent comments. There is a growing apathetic and complacent culture growing among our colleagues, however, I do not hold the Company entirely responsible. Huge strides have been made through recurrent classroom training and in the simulator to reinforce airmanship, big picture and basic professional standards. We have moved a long way forward from 7-10 years ago. Unfortunately, with the improvement in training has come a commensurate reduction in experience along with a general culture of relaxed indifference. Generational? Maybe, although I have flown with some super new guys who are very switched on. Unfortunately, the variation of standards is definitely growing.
Obsessive use of phones throughout all aspects of the flight, from briefing to hotel reception, spending all ULR flights in pyjamas, paperwork in climb, non standard R/T, not wearing uniform correctly, poor PA's. The list could go on. While some may see this as the ramblings of a typical grumpy old fart, I see it as an insidious decline in professional attitude. It is incumbent on all of us to maintain those standards and reinforce it to those intent on intentionally or unintentionally ignoring them.
It does not mean having to promote a dour and autocratic environment, far from it. It's for us to create and promote a relaxed yet professional work ethos that maintains minimum standards. That tone is set at the briefing and should continue throughout the flight. This airline has never been one to promote feedback yet this is the only way we can improve or be made aware of the things that we do wrong. It's also a way to reinforce the good we observe, not just the negative. It does take effort, and requires motivated and knowledgable crew to do so. 99% of the guys finish with a 'thank you' and hand shake regardless of the flights events. That's not enough.
If people are never told, they'll never learn. To achieve the goal of reaching and maintaining the high standards we strive for, surely we must all play a role in its facilitation.
Harry
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Had a quick scan of this thread, just wondering if the guys had headsets on on not, bearing in mind how quiet the Dugong's flight deck is compared to the Tractor?
Not having dig, however, it may be a factor in mishearing or missing RT calls.
Not having dig, however, it may be a factor in mishearing or missing RT calls.
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[QUOTE=speedbirdhopeful1;9836988]I'm not sure what is wrong with this WHEN APPROPRIATE, especially in certain locations like oceanic.
Totally agree with you on this one.
Being reasonable and not exaggerating in anything is the way to be safer.
Now....so far, only one reply about my post related to the correct procedure for traffic avoidance:
Would you turn (not recommended by all ACAS procedures) or stay put and wait for the RA and then follow correct standard procedures?
Totally agree with you on this one.
Being reasonable and not exaggerating in anything is the way to be safer.
Now....so far, only one reply about my post related to the correct procedure for traffic avoidance:
Would you turn (not recommended by all ACAS procedures) or stay put and wait for the RA and then follow correct standard procedures?
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Sorry, but I didn't see one consideration about this incident, and I'm curious about it:
Some posts mention the TCAS, and how it should have been followed or not, and if it should be followed at the first warning or not.
But hasn't at least one accident happened exactly because one aircraft followed the TCAS and the other didn't, in the Überlingen case [1] ?
I'm aware that only with the final report any conclusion can be draw, but anytime I see some incident where midair collision could have happened I remember that even TCAS isn't a miracle if not followed by both aircrafts.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C...-air_collision
Some posts mention the TCAS, and how it should have been followed or not, and if it should be followed at the first warning or not.
But hasn't at least one accident happened exactly because one aircraft followed the TCAS and the other didn't, in the Überlingen case [1] ?
I'm aware that only with the final report any conclusion can be draw, but anytime I see some incident where midair collision could have happened I remember that even TCAS isn't a miracle if not followed by both aircrafts.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9C...-air_collision
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similarities to Air Canada @ SFO
perhaps both this incident and the taxiway lineup by the landing Air Canada at SFO could be avoided by doing away with pilots and just having pilotless aircraft flown by computers that follow their ATC clearance?
just saying....
G
just saying....
G
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"e1229" - TCAS should not be followed until you have an RA. So strictly speaking the manoeuvre by SEY054 would have been a non-standard and surely not according to SOP.
TCAS should not be acted upon if it is just advisory, which happens quite often all over the world.
I think what some have said here earlier, we can not know what the various crew heard as readable / audible radio in their cockpits, so it's very judgemental of some to start talking about lack of SA and bad airmanship, when the transmissions we have access to now, might not have been audible for the 2 flight crews involved.
ATC by failing to catch the EK transmission of FL360, was the only one who we know "heard" the full picture. And was probably one of the main reasons he wanted to avoid making a report.
Now this issue with ATC not catching wrong readbacks from flight crews happens quite often, specially in environments where they love to chatter on the radio in their own local languages, such as France, Italy and Spain.
I have though noticed at least in Europe, that Radar control often have full view of your new assigned Flight Levels / Altitudes, after they have given you a clearance, and you have selected this on your FCU.
Can we assume that ATC in this instance did not have such equipment, that they could see what level the aircraft was climbing too?
I have in past heard corrections from Radar Control over the radio for both cleared levels and QNH settings selected.
TCAS should not be acted upon if it is just advisory, which happens quite often all over the world.
I think what some have said here earlier, we can not know what the various crew heard as readable / audible radio in their cockpits, so it's very judgemental of some to start talking about lack of SA and bad airmanship, when the transmissions we have access to now, might not have been audible for the 2 flight crews involved.
ATC by failing to catch the EK transmission of FL360, was the only one who we know "heard" the full picture. And was probably one of the main reasons he wanted to avoid making a report.
Now this issue with ATC not catching wrong readbacks from flight crews happens quite often, specially in environments where they love to chatter on the radio in their own local languages, such as France, Italy and Spain.
I have though noticed at least in Europe, that Radar control often have full view of your new assigned Flight Levels / Altitudes, after they have given you a clearance, and you have selected this on your FCU.
Can we assume that ATC in this instance did not have such equipment, that they could see what level the aircraft was climbing too?
I have in past heard corrections from Radar Control over the radio for both cleared levels and QNH settings selected.
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When the windscreen fills with the enlarging image of an oncoming aircraft you correct! Who is to say that TCAS is working correctly etc etc. We don't know what they SEY crew saw but watching the RADAR plot is looks close enough to me. Yes, in Europe or other very busy airspace you might not react in the same manner but this was not Europe. The SEY crew obviously felt the situation warranted maneuvering.
To say we never react to a TA is ridiculous. We do not 'usually' maneuver based on it for all the reasons mentioned. The SEY crew saw a problem and, with perhaps the local knowledge that the airspace is not busy (hence no chance of multiple cascading RA's) and the local knowledge that ATC is not the best, reacted.
Much better than a midair and, later on as a ghost, trying to tell the world that SOP's or some other rule forbid you from reacting.
To say we never react to a TA is ridiculous. We do not 'usually' maneuver based on it for all the reasons mentioned. The SEY crew saw a problem and, with perhaps the local knowledge that the airspace is not busy (hence no chance of multiple cascading RA's) and the local knowledge that ATC is not the best, reacted.
Much better than a midair and, later on as a ghost, trying to tell the world that SOP's or some other rule forbid you from reacting.
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Offset
At any airfield where the inbound and outbound airway is shared, why not stipulate that, within a given radius, all flights will offset by, say, 1 mile right? (Or left, if you are that way inclined.)
Prober
Prober
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Harry, agree with some of what you say.
Do you have a reference as to why I can't fly in pyjamas? Also why we can't do paperwork in the climb above FL200? Again.. I personally don't, but when appropriate why not?
Apologies for the massive thread drift, but its amazing how one's choice of clothes in a locked room seems to affect your professionalism. One reason I love the freighter to be away from this kind of BS and wear a t-shirt for the whole flight.
Do you have a reference as to why I can't fly in pyjamas? Also why we can't do paperwork in the climb above FL200? Again.. I personally don't, but when appropriate why not?
Apologies for the massive thread drift, but its amazing how one's choice of clothes in a locked room seems to affect your professionalism. One reason I love the freighter to be away from this kind of BS and wear a t-shirt for the whole flight.
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Wow. I must say, I feel privileged to have shared the sky so many years with all of you GODS.
I'm a mere mortal, and because of that I've made mistakes, luckily none that made the news or a message board full of you aviation deities.
If you've never made a mistake/got distracted in the FD, feel free to comment, if you're human like me, maybe wait until more info comes out because the lot of you are coming off extremely arrogant.
Keep your heads up and safe flying in "the land that forgot about airmanship"
CC
I'm a mere mortal, and because of that I've made mistakes, luckily none that made the news or a message board full of you aviation deities.
If you've never made a mistake/got distracted in the FD, feel free to comment, if you're human like me, maybe wait until more info comes out because the lot of you are coming off extremely arrogant.
Keep your heads up and safe flying in "the land that forgot about airmanship"
CC