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Delta Fights Back. Literally!

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Delta Fights Back. Literally!

Old 3rd Jul 2017, 14:11
  #41 (permalink)  
swh

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Originally Posted by Buford
Emirates decimated Qantas in Oz. Once they entered the market in 1996 it was all downhill from there.
Qantas and many of the European airlines flying to Australia were decimated by Singapore Airlines. Back in the 1970s back when Singapore was nothing more than a fishing village they put a massive order in for 747s. That order was funded by the Singapore soverign wealth fund. Qantas actually helped MSA back then to train them on how to operate and maintain jets. The Singapoeans were good students and ended up gaining about 45% of the market share between Europe and Australia, in the process most European airlines stopped flying to Australia, and Qantas pulled out of many destinations in Europe. In the process Singapore airport became a major hub and supplied significant employment and a significant percentage of the Singapore GDP.

What happened at another fishing village in the Middle East was to put the Singapore Airlines plan on steroids, the biggest loser in the ME expansion has been Singapore Airlines, not Qantas. Like Singapore the Dubai airport now earns a significant amount of GDP for Dubai.

I find the video hypercritical, Americans are all for free trade and competition, except when they are inefficient and cannot compete. One of the biggest reasons why they find it hard to compete is their fleet is so old, the other is US company law and the tax they have to pay.

In this world of globalisation, around 45% of any Airbus is built in the US, Airbus is the largest export customer of the US aerospace industry. Boeing does not build the 787, they assemble it. Major assemblies are built by other companies and are joined together by Boeing. Have a look at the Dreamlifter swallow two 787 wings when it visits Japan and then flies them to the Boeing for assembly.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 15:15
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Somebody mentioned the Canadians and gonads - let me tell you, if there are any gonads there, they are all extremely small and shrunken!

The reason that Canada limits the ME3 to 3 flights a week is not that they are protecting Air Canada, who doesn’t fly to DXB anyway, but Lufthansa, Air Canada’s Star Alliance Partner.

Canada was keen to negotiate a Trade Treaty with the EU, so helping a German Airline was seen to be useful in making the argument. Hence, the limitations on the number of flights by the ME3 - and, surprise, surprise, a successful Trade Treaty was ratified by the Eu earlier this year.

As for Air Canada, lest we forget, it was Government Owned until 1988 and went bankrupt in 2003, so benefitted again from Government support through the Companies Creditors Arrangement Act (the Canadian equivalent to the US Chapter 11) until it emerged as a private Company again in 2004.

But as in many major Canadian Companies, it isn’t really free to make all its own decisions - as an example, the Federal Government Air Canada Act requires their headquarters to be in Montreal - this clearly isn’t an independent Company free of Governmental interference!

It is also slightly hypercritical for Delta to go on about EK’s use of 5th Freedom rights and then for folks to offer up Air Canada as a paragon of virtue.

Currently, AC uses fifth freedom rights on Santiago-Buenos Aires, and in the past, fifth freedom routes have included: Honolulu-Sydney, London Heathrow-Düsseldorf, Paris-Geneva, Paris-Munich, Paris-Berlin, Frankfurt-Zürich, Zürich-Zagreb, Zürich-Vienna, Zürich-Delhi, Lisbon-Madrid, Brussels-Prague, London Heathrow-Delhi, London Heathrow-Nice, London Heathrow-Bombay-Singapore.

Finally, AC has been heavily censured by the Government for deliberate overbooking and the use of predatory pricing aimed at stifling competition in the market. As a result, for such a huge country, Canada only has 2 national airlines - Air Canada and Westjet, who were themselves subject to a ticket price onslaught from Air Canada when they initially started in an attempt to them out of business - as they did JetsGo and other long gone competitors.

Meanwhile, it's almost impossible to get a seat on one of the 3 weekly EK flights to Dubai….
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 15:25
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Funny how you ME3 pilots complain every time US interests (labor unions, airlines, etc) fight back to prevent what your airlines did to Europe, yet at the same time you come on here to complain at a near-constant rate how miserable life is working for EY/ EK/ QR... which is mostly because you are not allowed to organize and join a labor union. One whose sole purpose is to fight for your rights and benefits whilst you're out flying the line.

Talk about hypocrisy.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Only way to achieve US-level pay-rates and work rules is to hold management accountable. The only way to do that is to join a body that empowers aviators to speak as one collective voice. And since labor unions are banned in the most mE countries, your T&Cs aren't going to be improving anytime soon.

Your (ME3) rates of pay and work rules are in the dark ages. Wake up. It's ok though. We'll do the heavy-lifting and get this profession elevated, you can participate in the rising tide. But don't be under any illusions that you did anything to accomplish that. And in that same vain, we will fight, quite vigorously to expose the fraud of these open skies agreements.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 19:02
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Orvilles dad
Somebody mentioned the Canadians and gonads - let me tell you, if there are any gonads there, they are all extremely small and shrunken!

I'd disagree with that. Try to remember how many of those small scrotum Canucks fought in the war to liberate Europe, I'll bet they'd kick an ass or two today if provoked.

The reason that Canada limits the ME3 to 3 flights a week is not that they are protecting Air Canada, who doesn’t fly to DXB anyway, but Lufthansa, Air Canada’s Star Alliance Partner.

Air Canada flies to Dubai 3 times a week.


Canada was keen to negotiate a Trade Treaty with the EU, so helping a German Airline was seen to be useful in making the argument. Hence, the limitations on the number of flights by the ME3 - and, surprise, surprise, a successful Trade Treaty was ratified by the Eu earlier this year.

False, the STAR alliance goes way deeper than airlines. Think broader.

As for Air Canada, lest we forget, it was Government Owned until 1988 and went bankrupt in 2003, so benefitted again from Government support through the Companies Creditors Arrangement Act (the Canadian equivalent to the US Chapter 11) until it emerged as a private Company again in 2004.

The government of Canada offered no support during the CCAA. Based on good friends who work there and "From The Top", by Robert Milton, then CEO of Air Canada.

But as in many major Canadian Companies, it isn’t really free to make all its own decisions - as an example, the Federal Government Air Canada Act requires their headquarters to be in Montreal - this clearly isn’t an independent Company free of Governmental interference!

That is true and true of many companies in Canada. Not the free country many would think.



It is also slightly hypercritical for Delta to go on about EK’s use of 5th Freedom rights and then for folks to offer up Air Canada as a paragon of virtue.

I'd disagree with that too.

Currently, AC uses fifth freedom rights on Santiago-Buenos Aires, and in the past, fifth freedom routes have included: Honolulu-Sydney, London Heathrow-Düsseldorf, Paris-Geneva, Paris-Munich, Paris-Berlin, Frankfurt-Zürich, Zürich-Zagreb, Zürich-Vienna, Zürich-Delhi, Lisbon-Madrid, Brussels-Prague, London Heathrow-Delhi, London Heathrow-Nice, London Heathrow-Bombay-Singapore.

Finally, AC has been heavily censured by the Government for deliberate overbooking and the use of predatory pricing aimed at stifling competition in the market. As a result, for such a huge country, Canada only has 2 national airlines - Air Canada and Westjet, who were themselves subject to a ticket price onslaught from Air Canada when they initially started in an attempt to them out of business - as they did JetsGo and other long gone competitors.

Canada can barely (almost can't) support 2 airlines in the manor Canadians expect. They expect full service at low cost rates, maybe the ridiculous taxes mean the average family just doesn't have the money to fly a fancy ME carrier. There are government agencies in Canada that set the ticket pricing that AC must operate with, contravention results in LARGE penalties. Go back to your point about AC as a private company which operated under strict state control, then you'll understand how hand tied they are...mind you so is Aeroflot...you can draw your own conclusions.


Meanwhile, it's almost impossible to get a seat on one of the 3 weekly EK flights to Dubai….
Try the Air Canada Flights...I hear they have a few seats open and it's a cosy 787.


I doubt the ME operators are angels in the equation. Its time the North Americans stepped up the game but not by giving it away to the Arab's. Ask yourself if Putin will bow to the ME3? Why should Trump.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 19:30
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Originally Posted by 4runner
Mexico is number 14 for per capita income in the world. They're not slaves, they most certainly, without a doubt and absolutely came to the US voluntarily and can leave whenever they wish. They don't require "exit visas".....keep drawing the arcs.

4runner,
go back to school!

It is not about average income or gross national product.
It is about inequality.

Some 53,8 % of the Mexicans live below the poverty line.
They are modern day slaves in the USA like the workers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Philippines, Ethopia, etc... in the Middle East.
You Americans have a nice live based on their misery.
Point.

Start here:
https://borgenproject.org/mexico-poverty-rate/
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 19:31
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I always love how people trot out the words 'competition', 'free trade' etc. Both are fine provided there is a generally equal playing field and reciprocity. At its very basic core free trade works when both (or multiple) parties benefit equally. The simplistic explanation is that one country has advantages in one area while another has advantages in another area. By allowing free trade each sacrifices one area to benefit in the other. The end result being that each countries consumer benefits through cheaper prices.

Simply yelling 'free trade' is absolutely irrelevant! Unless both countries benefit there is no point in signing an agreement.

The ME3 (and other small city states or countries) don't have much to offer in terms of equal benefits.

The Canadian issue is a perfect example. Other than cheaper fares on a single route how would 'free trade' with the UAE benefit Canada? Instead, Canada's Air Policy has always looked at each individual country/agreement. If both sides benefit and there is enough traffic between the 2 countries then an agreement can be reached. So Canada to the UK, most European countries, South America etc etc has enough natural traffic BETWEEN them to sign an agreement.

But the UAE provides almost no traffic from the UAE itself. It hubs them in and out. SO why would Canada sign an agreement?

Worse, by allowing the UAE access it would cannibalize other routes. At the moment there are several frequencies to London, Frankfurt etc. Allowing the UAE to hub pax from India to Canada would siphon pax from routes that connect via Europe. Those pax are traveling one way or another - via UAE or Europe. So by allowing the ME3 into Canada they would likely lose frequencies to many Euro destinations. Frequencies are valuable and important. Code share profits would also decline.

So why sign such a lopsided agreement?

As I said, free trade only works when it's good for both sides. The idea that it is always good is ridiculous.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 19:33
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I'd also add that it is interesting when the ME cry about free trade while they are involved in a cartel to keep oil prices inflated and have done so for decades.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 19:47
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Not to mention a utility monopoly and a telecoms duopoly.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 23:15
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Settle down, you're drifting boys.

No one on here arguing free trade, ME trade policies, OPEC (wtf!), gulf workers rights, unions, SIA, Canadian testes (yeegads the thought!)

We know where we live and what it is - it's just a fancy oil rig with all the bells and whistles - we come do our shift and leave - never to stay.

Purely addressing the hypocrisy by example, of Delta basing the video on higher principles of caring about American workers and govt subsidies - when it's about Delta workers & Delta profitability.

All fine - but no 'cry me a river' please.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 23:26
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Well said, Trader.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 04:27
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by final06

How much are modern day slaves (Mexican immigrants) earning per hour in the USA?
I can give actual data to this one. It is quite common
for day rate under the table cash pay to be 10-15 an hour. This is for low skill usually laborious work. If the immigrant in question has or learns a skill then that rate will go up. I have a lot more experience and thoughts on this matter, but the bottom line is that the reason that many are in the U.S. is that they can make more money here than at home, and quite a few that I have had conversations with are working a long-term plan of working in the states for 15-20 saving or sending that money home, and retiring back home when they have enough. Hhhmmmm, does that sort of thing sound familiar??

Anyway, calling it slave labor is a half truth at best, yet it is not wrong in the assertion that the ME3 are being directly subsidized or have been greatly subsidized in past.


As for the video, it is quite arguable that it is over the top and full of hypocrisy.

There is one point about free trade that I believe is very important to understand is that often jobs are offshored to places because of cheaper labor but all too often it is because the standards of labor, pollution, and social safety nets are 50 to 100 years behind the western world this moral discount is passed on the consumer and stakeholders of the corporations taking advantage. There are many moral objections to this offshoring of external costs (labor rights for low income workers being one in particular).
While I would agree that the video is convenient half truth one question you have to ask is if say ME3 became much larger and more dominant would their workers (and displaced aviation workers) be better off for that change?
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 05:49
  #52 (permalink)  
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That video is cringeworthy.

If Delta or any other airline had the funding / resources to do the same, I have no doubt that they would.
And officially - by any government / business standards - Qatar Airways etc are not subsidised - they are legally invested companies within a sovereign wealth fund.

I've flown on all US legacy carriers in all three classes over the past twelve months. They are an utter disgrace: for both service and environment.

Do a roundtrip intercontinental flight with Qatar Airways having done an equivalent distance with a US carrier - and honestly tell me why I as customer, should except Delta's version of luxury or listen to their "level playing field" woes.

Useless.

Last edited by Farrell; 5th Jul 2017 at 04:13.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 16:47
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Originally Posted by 4runner
The lengths and tangents of the pro middle eastern carrier crowd goes to is amazing. Delta flew some soldiers during a war. It's called Air Mobility Command. It's a bid process, not especially lucrative and it causes a lot of disruptions. Rolling eyes, keep drawing those tangential arcs.
Incorrect, it's called CRAF, Civil Reserve Air Force. When there is a need for an airlift, they call on the CRAF airlines. In return, when the DOD does normal ticketing for service personnel, they will book on the CRAF airlines. And that is very lucrative. If an airline is not in the CRAF program, then perhaps the bid is not so lucrative.

The DOD does a very extensive investigation, I believe yearly, on the CRAF airlines to determine their level of safety and whether or not the airline can remain in the program. This all after the Arrow Air crash a few decades ago, in Canada.
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 17:17
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Let see who'll win the fight ... AM3 or Boeing!
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 20:27
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You look a bit more professional if you at least get the name of two of your competitors correct. Anyone heard of Gutter Airways or Emirates Airlines before?
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Old 4th Jul 2017, 20:59
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Originally Posted by mmorel
Video is totally a lie.

Maintenance job will still be there for these middle east airlines.people love to fly with middle east airlines? Why ? because when an old middle east passenger fly with these airlines, he /she can communicate with the flight attendant. Imagine you want a water in American airline, You ask for water and the flight attendant will look at you as third world countries and talk super fast that an old woman can not understand what she/he is saying. It's about culture. American wants to be best in everything by crushing all other countries. They new middle east has money and they can buy everything and that's why they are selling weapons to the middle east. I hope there is one day we can stop them so other countries can live better.
Are you a cab driver in Queens by chance?
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Old 5th Jul 2017, 05:40
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Originally Posted by Farrell
That video is cringeworthy.

If Delta or any other airline had the funding / resources to do the same, I have no doubt that they would.
And officially - by any government / business standards - Qatar Airways etc are not subsidised - they are legally invested companies within a sovereign wealth fund.

I've flown on all US legacy carriers in all three classes over the past twelve months. They are an utter disgrace: for both service and environment.

Do a roundtrip intercontinental flight with Qatar Airways having done an equivalent distance with a US carrier - and honestly tell me why I as customer, should except Delta's version of luxury or listen to their "level playing field" woes.

Useless.
........ the service is great becasue the workers providing it have very few rights at work . They are fired , mistreated , replaced , etc at a whim . If I had a slave my house would be super clean . Does not make it right . Hence it's a little dirty .
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Old 5th Jul 2017, 06:31
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Originally Posted by thatwasclose
........ the service is great becasue the workers providing it have very few rights at work . They are fired , mistreated , replaced , etc at a whim . If I had a slave my house would be super clean . Does not make it right . Hence it's a little dirty .
I'm afraid he's right!
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Old 5th Jul 2017, 07:42
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Originally Posted by thatwasclose
........ the service is great becasue the workers providing it have very few rights at work . They are fired , mistreated , replaced , etc at a whim . If I had a slave my house would be super clean . Does not make it right . Hence it's a little dirty .
So based on your statement that service is great because they have very few rights at work does it mean that US crew provide awful service because they are protected by the unions? Is that the purpose of the unions?
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Old 5th Jul 2017, 09:03
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haha, Pilots in US are like cab drivers. Just check how they treat pilots in other countries. on a layover in Asia , Hotels treat captain nice but when you are doing layover in the US , you just have to wait in line like other customers. It's not just about the money it's also about respect. The pilot in ASIA can buy discounted business class ticket while in US you can't even use your airline's network to travel. Domestic tickets in US are so cheap that US crew normally try to buy them in advance .
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