Eagle jet 1000hrs
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Join Date: May 2012
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Not defending or endorsing P2F here, but people attacking him for not getting a job flying small planes to get experience are missing a very important point which is that he probably has no access to a job or even a work permit in a country where he can do that. It's up to him to disclose his circumstances but I can tell you that where he is from GA does not exist and neither do FI opportunities.
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Well maybe you should do some research before getting into aviation , and don't give me that, there's always away no matter where you are from or where you live , for some it's easier than others but if you want to be enslaved or scammed or in further debt after being unemployed after paying these fraudsters go right ahead the choice is yours .
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Wow, having read this thread, I just felt compelled to add my 2-pence worth. I can add this for sure. It is not in all cases a situation where an inept or arrogant "250 hour newbie" is looking for a short cut. I am also considering a P2F option, because I have people who are relying on me to succeed in this endeavour, having bust myself financially flat to do an integrated course off my own back. Thats EUR 110,000 right there. AND, I have more hours than most who clear flight school - I paid every penny I could to get every hour I could, be it in a C152 or whatever I could jump into - and I did this whilst holding down brutal jobs in airline and other aviation niche roles. I have given 16 years to the industry, and rose to the top positions available in Flight Ops. I did those 16 years because I had no rich parents to pay for me at age 20-something to train. It took those 16 years to be able to stop working for 18 months and afford my training.
And believe me, when I came out, the "healthy hiring" industry I was promised has yet to show up! I am on the shortlist for about a dozen operators, but things move way too slowly. How long are we expected to wait for a carrier to beckon us into the right hand seat? Is it 'immoral' for people in my situation to consider paying for 500 hours in a single aisle jet? And yes,it is the industry itself that generated this path, NOT the people considering it. And, not wanting to offend anyone particularly, but I am getting pretty sick of pilots sh*ting on the less experienced who are trying their best to follow their dreams. The people with a comfy right (-or left!) hand seat who rant at the up-and-coming guys, saying they're "lowering the bar" by simply grabbing the best opportunity they can, is childish. Thats my opinion.
Someone driving a Merc has someone driving a Bentley drive past them, who happens to be younger - do you yell out of your window at them that they haven't driven a Merc long enough to deserve the Bentley!? It is a shame that the industry has turned this way. Its a knock on effect of the surge in Low-Cost carriers, where the ethos is now penny pinching and out-cheaping their rivals. And of course, those companies will turn to hiring and training as a target for cost cutting. There comes a time, certainly for me, where you've paid your dues to this industry, and you deserve your chance. If you have to pay for it, either due to bad luck, bad timing (Sept '11 anyone!?), inaccessible opportunities in your region (I know about that!), and you need to get something started... (who can really sit around waiting forever, or going slowly bankrupt flying a baby Cessna piston around for peanuts?!), it is a viable (perhaps risky?) route that has become more prevalent these days.
Its a choice, certainly. Sit and wait and pray and hope, to keep other "moral" pilots comfy where they sit (and they can say, 'hey, see that lad, well, he's a good egg. He could've paid his way into the right hand seat of an Airbus/Boeing, but nay, he stayed home and waited and suffered long enough to get a 'real' job' - thats MY kind of pilot), or grab the chance, take the risk, and go for it with all you can. Now thats MY kind of PERSON.
And sure enough, if a P2F guy gets a right hand seat, all power to them. If they can't MAINTAIN the standard to remain there, any airline worth a damn will hoof them out, so, theres no need for jealousy, envy, hatred. Airlines evolve. This is a new-ish branch of evolution. Embrace change, or moan and whine and find yourself left behind. I had to contend with the early days of fast track newbies on an MPL versus my standard PPL-CPL-ME-IR-ATPL-MCC-JOC path. And things will keep changing and evolving. I'd urge the moaners and complainers to get on board and be more accepting.
P2F is NOT the solution, its a fix which is borne of circumstance. And I am one who is willing to CONSIDER the POSSIBILITY of moulding my path to fit circumstance, and with a family to support urgently, a career to launch after 16 years at the grind, I may take it... Sorry for the long post... I think it needs saying... No wish to upset anyone, but theres a side to this that isnt being represented fairly. Off to call a few P2F guys now...
And believe me, when I came out, the "healthy hiring" industry I was promised has yet to show up! I am on the shortlist for about a dozen operators, but things move way too slowly. How long are we expected to wait for a carrier to beckon us into the right hand seat? Is it 'immoral' for people in my situation to consider paying for 500 hours in a single aisle jet? And yes,it is the industry itself that generated this path, NOT the people considering it. And, not wanting to offend anyone particularly, but I am getting pretty sick of pilots sh*ting on the less experienced who are trying their best to follow their dreams. The people with a comfy right (-or left!) hand seat who rant at the up-and-coming guys, saying they're "lowering the bar" by simply grabbing the best opportunity they can, is childish. Thats my opinion.
Someone driving a Merc has someone driving a Bentley drive past them, who happens to be younger - do you yell out of your window at them that they haven't driven a Merc long enough to deserve the Bentley!? It is a shame that the industry has turned this way. Its a knock on effect of the surge in Low-Cost carriers, where the ethos is now penny pinching and out-cheaping their rivals. And of course, those companies will turn to hiring and training as a target for cost cutting. There comes a time, certainly for me, where you've paid your dues to this industry, and you deserve your chance. If you have to pay for it, either due to bad luck, bad timing (Sept '11 anyone!?), inaccessible opportunities in your region (I know about that!), and you need to get something started... (who can really sit around waiting forever, or going slowly bankrupt flying a baby Cessna piston around for peanuts?!), it is a viable (perhaps risky?) route that has become more prevalent these days.
Its a choice, certainly. Sit and wait and pray and hope, to keep other "moral" pilots comfy where they sit (and they can say, 'hey, see that lad, well, he's a good egg. He could've paid his way into the right hand seat of an Airbus/Boeing, but nay, he stayed home and waited and suffered long enough to get a 'real' job' - thats MY kind of pilot), or grab the chance, take the risk, and go for it with all you can. Now thats MY kind of PERSON.
And sure enough, if a P2F guy gets a right hand seat, all power to them. If they can't MAINTAIN the standard to remain there, any airline worth a damn will hoof them out, so, theres no need for jealousy, envy, hatred. Airlines evolve. This is a new-ish branch of evolution. Embrace change, or moan and whine and find yourself left behind. I had to contend with the early days of fast track newbies on an MPL versus my standard PPL-CPL-ME-IR-ATPL-MCC-JOC path. And things will keep changing and evolving. I'd urge the moaners and complainers to get on board and be more accepting.
P2F is NOT the solution, its a fix which is borne of circumstance. And I am one who is willing to CONSIDER the POSSIBILITY of moulding my path to fit circumstance, and with a family to support urgently, a career to launch after 16 years at the grind, I may take it... Sorry for the long post... I think it needs saying... No wish to upset anyone, but theres a side to this that isnt being represented fairly. Off to call a few P2F guys now...
Last edited by SuperJet; 8th Jul 2017 at 21:34. Reason: Formatting
Join Date: Mar 2017
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@superjet, just have questions , you have 16 years of experience in aviation, could you not see how the job market is? Did you not for once ask the pilots how the hiring situation is?? Why didn't you do some research before you spent 110k euro?
The jobs promised to you by flight schools is a lie, there is no pilot shortages,even in Asia, what they do have is a shortage of experienced or rated pilots on fleet.
Now you are at ire about pilots here picking on p2f wannabes, it isn't coz we are jealous, it is simply because p2f lowers the bar for all, including you. You might be happy for crappy pay now, but after 5 years I bet you won't be.
Do you not think after you have got your 500/1000 hours that you have paid for you will be showed the door and replaced with a new p2f.
I am sure the p2f will be in Asia, where most countries now don't even hire fo, as there are hundreds of locals. So I would advice proceed with caution, lot of stories about pilots who want shiny jets who came to Asia , left with nothing but a bill and sti to show for it.
Again if u choose to go down p2f, be carefull. Ask for guarante letter of employment, contracts and so on. So you are not left on **** creek without a paddle.
Good luck
The jobs promised to you by flight schools is a lie, there is no pilot shortages,even in Asia, what they do have is a shortage of experienced or rated pilots on fleet.
Now you are at ire about pilots here picking on p2f wannabes, it isn't coz we are jealous, it is simply because p2f lowers the bar for all, including you. You might be happy for crappy pay now, but after 5 years I bet you won't be.
Do you not think after you have got your 500/1000 hours that you have paid for you will be showed the door and replaced with a new p2f.
I am sure the p2f will be in Asia, where most countries now don't even hire fo, as there are hundreds of locals. So I would advice proceed with caution, lot of stories about pilots who want shiny jets who came to Asia , left with nothing but a bill and sti to show for it.
Again if u choose to go down p2f, be carefull. Ask for guarante letter of employment, contracts and so on. So you are not left on **** creek without a paddle.
Good luck
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Do not complain IF you ever get a job after P2f that pilot wages are too low
Do not complain that you don't get high enough bonuses
Do not complain that your banker and lawyer friends are making 10 times what you make
Do not complain if you are scammed by eagle jet
Do not complain when you are treated like dirt by your third rate instructors at a third rate airline
Do not come crying to the rest of us that it's just too hard
Do not complain that you don't get high enough bonuses
Do not complain that your banker and lawyer friends are making 10 times what you make
Do not complain if you are scammed by eagle jet
Do not complain when you are treated like dirt by your third rate instructors at a third rate airline
Do not come crying to the rest of us that it's just too hard
