EK Cargo
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Eventually they will be dragged kicking and screaming to the conclusion we have all known from the getgo.
The only question is, "Why does it take so long before the blindingly obvious is recognised and actioned, by those who are supposed to be, you know, aviation savants?"
The only question is, "Why does it take so long before the blindingly obvious is recognised and actioned, by those who are supposed to be, you know, aviation savants?"
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Not that I think this contract is anywhere near of what it should be. But in all fairness... With this contract you offer the company about 15% less working days.
28/13 can be done 8.9 times/year. Within those 28 days you must have a minimum of 6 days off (1 after 7 and 2 in 14). So that is 53 days. Add the 8.9 times 13 (116) and the 12 days of leave you end up with a total of 181 days off work as the minimum. Giving the company a maximum of 184 days of work.
Considering a normal contract with 9 off days/month is 108 plus 42 days of leave equals 150 days/year. Leaving 215 days of work.
184 is roughly 15 less than 215.
If you the consider the fixed costs for the company (sim, gnd school, uniforms, accom, schooling...) which are the same for both groups, the cargo pilots end up more expensive than the rest of us.
Just a simple minds calculation, not claiming to cover all the details...
Geez, I must be really bored...
28/13 can be done 8.9 times/year. Within those 28 days you must have a minimum of 6 days off (1 after 7 and 2 in 14). So that is 53 days. Add the 8.9 times 13 (116) and the 12 days of leave you end up with a total of 181 days off work as the minimum. Giving the company a maximum of 184 days of work.
Considering a normal contract with 9 off days/month is 108 plus 42 days of leave equals 150 days/year. Leaving 215 days of work.
184 is roughly 15 less than 215.
If you the consider the fixed costs for the company (sim, gnd school, uniforms, accom, schooling...) which are the same for both groups, the cargo pilots end up more expensive than the rest of us.
Just a simple minds calculation, not claiming to cover all the details...
Geez, I must be really bored...
Join Date: Jul 2000
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It works out for left seat ...
12,600 dollars
Plus 1500 for the provident fund
Plus say 1,000 flight pay .
The housing allowance is being used as pay if you opt out basically. If you opt in no hotel . Which makes sense . Main line guys can still bid freight , the freight guys will not be able to bid so the crap flights will come . However , for guys who are leaving anyway , or need a change it's an option . Try it , see how it goes and then quit if it does not work .
Schooling paid , flight benefits and insurance kept . Its getting there .
12,600 dollars
Plus 1500 for the provident fund
Plus say 1,000 flight pay .
The housing allowance is being used as pay if you opt out basically. If you opt in no hotel . Which makes sense . Main line guys can still bid freight , the freight guys will not be able to bid so the crap flights will come . However , for guys who are leaving anyway , or need a change it's an option . Try it , see how it goes and then quit if it does not work .
Schooling paid , flight benefits and insurance kept . Its getting there .
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Thatwasclose
It says provident fund but not at what rate......
Flight benefits are not there...... no tickets to get too and from ~Dubai for days off.
12,600 dollars
Plus 1500 for the provident fund
Plus 1500 for the provident fund
Flight benefits are not there...... no tickets to get too and from ~Dubai for days off.
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Too true donpizmeov2
The rest of the world is realizing that unless you're operating from either your home country or have your family / friends with you, a decent paying commutable contract, with all the bells and whistles included, is what both current and potential employees require / desire. The ability to visit loved ones was removed by ATC. Repair the damage or forever chase your tail
The rest of the world is realizing that unless you're operating from either your home country or have your family / friends with you, a decent paying commutable contract, with all the bells and whistles included, is what both current and potential employees require / desire. The ability to visit loved ones was removed by ATC. Repair the damage or forever chase your tail
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Pretty poor mgt here. Throw it out there - no luck, a few weeks later try something different. Looks very amateurish - buy hey we know that.
With these contracts there has to be one big sweetener;
At KAL it's the time off pos J travel, not the money.
With HNA - it's the cash.
With CSA it's the home basings
With EK it's....eh, errr, a little bit here, a little something there that hasn't caught many people's attention.
etc etc.
What's clear by the second offer is they need more guys to do this - those who have the ear of ACP ME - continue let him know it's not enough.
Pos space travel back to DXB (Y upgradeable on the highest possible STBY priority -if need be). Stressing over FABS in your last three days of 13 about whether you get an upgrade is a different proposition than wondering will you get on.
12 mos loss of medical coverage - this is a key point. I know many who have been down and out for between 5-12 mos now back on line thankfully. We all have families to feed, not just pax crew. With these hours year in year out - medical issues will increase. Do not undersell your livelihood - that extra six months is crucial.
With these contracts there has to be one big sweetener;
At KAL it's the time off pos J travel, not the money.
With HNA - it's the cash.
With CSA it's the home basings
With EK it's....eh, errr, a little bit here, a little something there that hasn't caught many people's attention.
etc etc.
What's clear by the second offer is they need more guys to do this - those who have the ear of ACP ME - continue let him know it's not enough.
Pos space travel back to DXB (Y upgradeable on the highest possible STBY priority -if need be). Stressing over FABS in your last three days of 13 about whether you get an upgrade is a different proposition than wondering will you get on.
12 mos loss of medical coverage - this is a key point. I know many who have been down and out for between 5-12 mos now back on line thankfully. We all have families to feed, not just pax crew. With these hours year in year out - medical issues will increase. Do not undersell your livelihood - that extra six months is crucial.
Last edited by fliion; 31st May 2017 at 07:01.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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It is a lowball offer and, if I had to guess, was highly modified by senior management and accountants. They want the best of both worlds - more productivity AND lower costs and they think pilots will accept it.
Korean is the basic standard for a commuting contract. So why would anyone accept the EK version, which is not even in the same league??
EK could put together a cargo contract that would serve both the pilots AND the company:
1) Keep current pay
2) 19 ON/11 OFF - travel on outside days
3) No housing allowance (saves the co. 150-190,000 dhms a year)
4) No schooling - you are commuting and in your home country
5) No family health plan - don't know the savings but it is substantial
6) Basic provident fund/UAE requirements
7) Confirmed travel to and from DXB is a cost as is the hotel days while in DXB
In this scenario both the company and the pilot benefit. The company save money overall while the pilot gets the commuting contract.
Now get even more creative. You could DH the pilot from his home to the START of any trip outside of DXB. As an example- a trip starts out of AMS you send a European based pilot to start his month in AMS instead of DXB where he would DH back out.
Few if any will stay at EK for what they are offering when there are far better offers out there. Even with the example above the Korean contract is better due to the tax nature and tax paid features which reduce tax liabilty for most nations.
Korean is the basic standard for a commuting contract. So why would anyone accept the EK version, which is not even in the same league??
EK could put together a cargo contract that would serve both the pilots AND the company:
1) Keep current pay
2) 19 ON/11 OFF - travel on outside days
3) No housing allowance (saves the co. 150-190,000 dhms a year)
4) No schooling - you are commuting and in your home country
5) No family health plan - don't know the savings but it is substantial
6) Basic provident fund/UAE requirements
7) Confirmed travel to and from DXB is a cost as is the hotel days while in DXB
In this scenario both the company and the pilot benefit. The company save money overall while the pilot gets the commuting contract.
Now get even more creative. You could DH the pilot from his home to the START of any trip outside of DXB. As an example- a trip starts out of AMS you send a European based pilot to start his month in AMS instead of DXB where he would DH back out.
Few if any will stay at EK for what they are offering when there are far better offers out there. Even with the example above the Korean contract is better due to the tax nature and tax paid features which reduce tax liabilty for most nations.
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Trader
Nice, but ancient news. They have been told that since 15 years. They would have saved millions, but it did and still does raise their hair, because it tells them right in their faces that living in the ME is inferior to living in civilised countries.
They will not, and most probably never will pay you anything out of their pocket to live in a better place than they do.
That's why the cargo contract can never be what we'd wish:
- Either a reduction in workload with a decent reduction in t&c's for those who wish.
- or a commuter contract with a considerable reduction in remuneration, but a decent lifestyle for those who wish.
The term "win-win" is unacceptable to their culture. For the simple reason that if someone other than them wins, even if they would profit from it as well, it must be "stealing from the company".
Nice, but ancient news. They have been told that since 15 years. They would have saved millions, but it did and still does raise their hair, because it tells them right in their faces that living in the ME is inferior to living in civilised countries.
They will not, and most probably never will pay you anything out of their pocket to live in a better place than they do.
That's why the cargo contract can never be what we'd wish:
- Either a reduction in workload with a decent reduction in t&c's for those who wish.
- or a commuter contract with a considerable reduction in remuneration, but a decent lifestyle for those who wish.
The term "win-win" is unacceptable to their culture. For the simple reason that if someone other than them wins, even if they would profit from it as well, it must be "stealing from the company".
Join Date: Jan 2004
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There is an additional point: it's not to do with the company benefitting...ultimately, it's about Dubai benefitting - that is the whole reason for the existence of the airline and the number one aim in the company manuals.
TM
TM
Join Date: Oct 2015
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Isn't it just partly a case of targeting LoCo pilots from India? Commuting would be easy and relatively cheap for those guys and they'd jump at the chance to earn a bit more than at home. The guys would in general be a bit younger and not need to be at home much as they probably wouldn't have family issues/demands.
It certainly isn't designed for cummuting from anywhere else, particularly over 3 hours away from Dubai.
It certainly isn't designed for cummuting from anywhere else, particularly over 3 hours away from Dubai.
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Odins,
You will be surprised how much "Indian" LoCo pilots make. If it were all doom and gloom down there, EK would have been flooded with guys from there, but obviously are not. Looks like most LoCo pilots come from your part of the world to the gulf for a better salary!
FK
You will be surprised how much "Indian" LoCo pilots make. If it were all doom and gloom down there, EK would have been flooded with guys from there, but obviously are not. Looks like most LoCo pilots come from your part of the world to the gulf for a better salary!
FK
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Now get even more creative. You could DH the pilot from his home to the START of any trip outside of DXB. As an example a trip starts out of AMS you send a European based pilot to start his month in AMS instead of DXB where he would DH back out.
Join Date: Oct 2015
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They could position flight crew as supernumerary on the jump seat I guess, as its cost neutral. However, I could never see them paying for crew to position on another airline to an outstation.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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OR
Just because Jet 2 wouldn't use another airline, don't think EK wouldn't.
They have been for many years, especially in US & Caribbean (Delta, United & KLM are just some that have been used on Cargo ops previously). If they started positioning crew on the jumpseat, it would imply that jumpseat travel is OK, a path something even EK would be weary of treading.
However, as for those four leather reclining seats in the galley.....
Harry
Just because Jet 2 wouldn't use another airline, don't think EK wouldn't.
They have been for many years, especially in US & Caribbean (Delta, United & KLM are just some that have been used on Cargo ops previously). If they started positioning crew on the jumpseat, it would imply that jumpseat travel is OK, a path something even EK would be weary of treading.
However, as for those four leather reclining seats in the galley.....
Harry
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I have carried positioning crew on jumpseat/4 leather chairs twice now. So the precedent has already been set. If there is ever a management change maybe this could be revisited.
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OR
Just because Jet 2 wouldn't use another airline, don't think EK wouldn't.
They have been for many years, especially in US & Caribbean (Delta, United & KLM are just some that have been used on Cargo ops previously). If they started positioning crew on the jumpseat, it would imply that jumpseat travel is OK, a path something even EK would be weary of treading.
However, as for those four leather reclining seats in the galley.....
Harry
Just because Jet 2 wouldn't use another airline, don't think EK wouldn't.
They have been for many years, especially in US & Caribbean (Delta, United & KLM are just some that have been used on Cargo ops previously). If they started positioning crew on the jumpseat, it would imply that jumpseat travel is OK, a path something even EK would be weary of treading.
However, as for those four leather reclining seats in the galley.....
Harry
EK could quite easily position their own crew to an outstation THROUGH Dubai on EK itself. But that would be taking a revenue seat. By not including the dead heading as part of the contract they ensure that they make a profit every time the crew member travels to and from work. Think of it like Costa Coffee... it's a 25% discount but the real cost of production is a fraction of the cost of the drink even after the discount, so they make a huge profit out of crew in need of a boost. Not criticising it just stating a fact.
So I reiterate my OPINION that the Company won't offer deadheading options on other airlines. If you were a manager right now at EK would you suggest to the big boss that he invests some of his money in making profits for other airlines?