What...?
L'enfant Terrible
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The bar of Mumbles rugby club
Age: 42
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great post OKC! I have a sneaky suspicion that you and I flew together a few years back.
I thought I was a hopeless case when I transitioned to heavies and saw my sim partner engage the automatics at 200' on our very first handling sim. Luckily you then hit the line and realise that handling, energy management and common sense are still prized and respected by many. Momo mate, I'm not saying you won't have that at 2000 hours, but it's rare and depends on your quality of training and the application you put in when you're released to line flying. I didn't have much of it below 4000 hours (and I'd flown the bush, regionals and some other fun stuff) and still have a lot to learn with 7000. Best of luck.
I thought I was a hopeless case when I transitioned to heavies and saw my sim partner engage the automatics at 200' on our very first handling sim. Luckily you then hit the line and realise that handling, energy management and common sense are still prized and respected by many. Momo mate, I'm not saying you won't have that at 2000 hours, but it's rare and depends on your quality of training and the application you put in when you're released to line flying. I didn't have much of it below 4000 hours (and I'd flown the bush, regionals and some other fun stuff) and still have a lot to learn with 7000. Best of luck.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Home...
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@nicosnoko
"Lots of experience on the 380"? Really? They do hire 2000 hours FOs. And we do have 6000 hours total time captains. I wouldn't consider that lots of experience.
By the way, what is the story of the 2 stripe FOs on both fleets? And I'm not referring to the national cadets.[/QUOTE]
-->
I have only flown with experienced F/Os, much more than 2000 hours total time, some with >10K.
I am not saying that there are not 2K F/Os, I only know the guys I fly with.
As for the 2 stripes I saw one of them (A380), I guess it means that he has a frozen ATPL.
"Lots of experience on the 380"? Really? They do hire 2000 hours FOs. And we do have 6000 hours total time captains. I wouldn't consider that lots of experience.
By the way, what is the story of the 2 stripe FOs on both fleets? And I'm not referring to the national cadets.[/QUOTE]
-->
I have only flown with experienced F/Os, much more than 2000 hours total time, some with >10K.
I am not saying that there are not 2K F/Os, I only know the guys I fly with.
As for the 2 stripes I saw one of them (A380), I guess it means that he has a frozen ATPL.
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there a hint of jealousy that one person is going down a cadet route whilst all you heroic soldiers of the analogue gauges weren't so lucky? Some of the posts here are quite laughable, and sad in the bitterness they contain.
Would any of you have turned down a cadet place on a BOAC course back in your day? ... didn't think so!
OKC would the current 'airline' you fly for even qualify to fly in EASA territory? I didn't think rodeos were allowed here. May the Lord save us from whatever God forsaken operation is going on down there, I don't even want to know. Beggars belief. And you're even slating someone who will be trained to operate with proper SOPs ...
... I know who's plane I'd rather be on.
Would any of you have turned down a cadet place on a BOAC course back in your day? ... didn't think so!
OKC would the current 'airline' you fly for even qualify to fly in EASA territory? I didn't think rodeos were allowed here. May the Lord save us from whatever God forsaken operation is going on down there, I don't even want to know. Beggars belief. And you're even slating someone who will be trained to operate with proper SOPs ...
... I know who's plane I'd rather be on.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While I certainly appreciate the skills gained from a background of climbing the GA -> TP -> Jet ladder, for many of us in Europe it just isn't an option any more due to financial constraints and the general lack of GA flying. I went through a cadet programme and started on the A320 with about 250hrs, if it wasn't for the semi-sponsored scheme I would never have been able to get where I am today.
With the right combination of good training, experienced captains to learn from and the right amount of humility/willingness to learn there is no problem with having cadets as part of a balanced intake to an airline. The problems start when cadets make up the entirety of the job market as is currently happening with CTC and Oxford in the U.K. This makes it difficult for self-improvers and tends to depress Ts and Cs along with general experience levels in the flight deck.
With the right combination of good training, experienced captains to learn from and the right amount of humility/willingness to learn there is no problem with having cadets as part of a balanced intake to an airline. The problems start when cadets make up the entirety of the job market as is currently happening with CTC and Oxford in the U.K. This makes it difficult for self-improvers and tends to depress Ts and Cs along with general experience levels in the flight deck.
Officer K: Er, no. Actually went through Hamble myself back in the last century... The current 'cadets' are not actually the same ( with the exception of the sponsored Emiratis) in that the rigorous 'selection' is the ability to cough up the money. I agree that it is boring to go into old fogey mode. But aviation has changed and certainly not for the better. The analogue set were / are not better as natural pilots but it was a sink or swim apprenticeship with a steep learning curve. You haven't lived until you've had a former wartime bomber pilot (much respect btw) tell you how they 'hate your foxtrotting guts' for no apparent obvious reason. No crm or pc appropriateness back then. Of course automation is king and understandable in terms of current technology. So the catch 22 dilemma is erosion of handling skills.Modern training departments continue to struggle with that one. So, not jealous. Plus your sign off to okc was really quite bitchy. Calm down dear!
Last edited by olster; 14th May 2017 at 20:39. Reason: grammar! plus expletive insertion
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Austria
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The untold story of QF72: What happens when 'psycho' automation leaves pilots powerless?
Imagine now an inexperienced Crew!
Imagine now an inexperienced Crew!
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No problem Officer K. You are not completely wrong. The post modern airline world is complex. Possibly us old fogeys could have tried harder to have prevented the plummeting t's and c's. I genuinely sympathise with the younger guys coming into the job and have no idea how they can survive the 900 hour / year regime so beloved of airline accountants. My only advice to the newbies is to show a little respect and humility coupled with a sense of humour. Add some enthusiasm and a modicum of talent should take you up until the cynicism kicks in... The grizzled veteran brigade were not necessarily better pilots, they just didn't have a magenta line to follow...So by definition and necessity we became stick and rudder men. Don't let the bar stewards grind you down. Cheers.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The difference between the "old days" cadet and today's is that the old cadets made up perhaps 10-20% of the BA/LH/AF intake. They were put through a rigorous training regime on aircraft that demanded their attention(BAC111, trident etc). Today(especially in the EU) cadets seem to make up at least 80% of the intake and fly an aircraft that is fairly benign(A320).
The inexperience of the cadet was watered down by their lower numbers relative to the airline. This is no longer the case as the cadets seem to be the only source of pilots for the EU Airlines.
What's worse today is that some of the recent cadets are now probably TRIs and, like making a "copy of a copy", the newer cadets might not be getting quite the same type of training the old cadets got.
The inexperience of the cadet was watered down by their lower numbers relative to the airline. This is no longer the case as the cadets seem to be the only source of pilots for the EU Airlines.
What's worse today is that some of the recent cadets are now probably TRIs and, like making a "copy of a copy", the newer cadets might not be getting quite the same type of training the old cadets got.
In the past aircraft and systems were taught by a FLT ENG or experienced pilot. Limitations were known by number not by colour. Now a CBT and a quick quiz is all that is required. All in the name of cost cutting.
We now have aircraft crashing while in the cruise when Autoflight problems happen.
New pilots that have never been given the opportunity to hand fly an aircraft even above 10000ft, let alone upside down. This new training system may be great at teaching someone to follow an SOP but it's not very good at training them to be pilots.
We now have aircraft crashing while in the cruise when Autoflight problems happen.
New pilots that have never been given the opportunity to hand fly an aircraft even above 10000ft, let alone upside down. This new training system may be great at teaching someone to follow an SOP but it's not very good at training them to be pilots.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Monrovia / Liberia
Age: 63
Posts: 757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Officer Kite: wrt "OKC would the current 'airline' you fly for even qualify to fly in EASA territory?"
Actually, the answer to that is "Yes !", because it is an EASA licensed & regulated airline.
And Kite, you might like to consider that some of my prior colleagues in the sandpit, no doubt following well drilled SOP, in a perfectly serviceable modern aeroplane, one resplendent with all the bells & whistles in terms of flight guidance systems (e.g. HUD/HGS, etc), managed to fly the f'ing thing straight into the ground and kill everyone onboard... now do you get my point?!
Indeed you would not believe the number of supposedly well trained & qualified pilots who could not tell me the precise sequence of how to and / or actually fly a go-around in a B737 (and / or, come to that, in other Boeing types that I've flown too)... and, imho, that's a fine example of **** training being masked by SOP.
And, according to your previous comment of "I know who's plane I'd rather be on". Well good luck to you on that one mate, as you might end up needing it, i.e. luck that the pink string monkey's & technocrats can still cope when the pink string breaks & the automatics fail them, i.e. when the beast isn't behaving as expected, or the SA is lost, and they've little or nothing to fall back against! E.g. Ethiopian into the Mediterranean and / or Air France into the Atlantic being just two cases in point.
And if more proof of that were needed, only a few weeks back I failed (and demoted) a Captain for what was a complete cluster **** of a line check culminating in a massively unstable approach and a balls'd-up go-around, wherein most of it was due to an evident over-reliance on 'pink-string' & 'automatics' to get them out of the ****, in what - on that day - proved to be a very dynamic situation. Most days they'd likely have got away with it, but not that day, i.e. one with me sitting on the jump seat watching the debacle unfold. QED ?!
Oldaircrew: wrt "copy of a copy"... I fully concur !
donpizmeov: wrt "This new training system may be great at teaching someone to follow an SOP but it's not very good at training them to be pilots."... ditto !
Actually, the answer to that is "Yes !", because it is an EASA licensed & regulated airline.
And Kite, you might like to consider that some of my prior colleagues in the sandpit, no doubt following well drilled SOP, in a perfectly serviceable modern aeroplane, one resplendent with all the bells & whistles in terms of flight guidance systems (e.g. HUD/HGS, etc), managed to fly the f'ing thing straight into the ground and kill everyone onboard... now do you get my point?!
Indeed you would not believe the number of supposedly well trained & qualified pilots who could not tell me the precise sequence of how to and / or actually fly a go-around in a B737 (and / or, come to that, in other Boeing types that I've flown too)... and, imho, that's a fine example of **** training being masked by SOP.
And, according to your previous comment of "I know who's plane I'd rather be on". Well good luck to you on that one mate, as you might end up needing it, i.e. luck that the pink string monkey's & technocrats can still cope when the pink string breaks & the automatics fail them, i.e. when the beast isn't behaving as expected, or the SA is lost, and they've little or nothing to fall back against! E.g. Ethiopian into the Mediterranean and / or Air France into the Atlantic being just two cases in point.
And if more proof of that were needed, only a few weeks back I failed (and demoted) a Captain for what was a complete cluster **** of a line check culminating in a massively unstable approach and a balls'd-up go-around, wherein most of it was due to an evident over-reliance on 'pink-string' & 'automatics' to get them out of the ****, in what - on that day - proved to be a very dynamic situation. Most days they'd likely have got away with it, but not that day, i.e. one with me sitting on the jump seat watching the debacle unfold. QED ?!
Oldaircrew: wrt "copy of a copy"... I fully concur !
donpizmeov: wrt "This new training system may be great at teaching someone to follow an SOP but it's not very good at training them to be pilots."... ditto !
Last edited by Old King Coal; 16th May 2017 at 04:47. Reason: typo(s)
