What...?
Unfortunately momo95, with the career path you are choosing you will never get to fly an aeroplane. You will just sit in one and do every other take off and landing. It is a career which will be as boring as bat****e. But you won't realise that, as you will never know what you have missed out on.
Real flying happens outside of the airlines, in the military, Bush flying, aero medical and the like.
My flying stopped almost two decades ago when I joined an airline. Since then I have basically flown the same hour 13000 times. And I have been lucky enough to fly several types to help stop some of the boredom.
When flying with those that know nothing other than airline flying, you can not sit about and talk about flying stories of the past as they have none. This is a sad reflection of where this industry has gone. I honestly feel sorry for those starting a career today as all the good stuff has been stripped away.
Real flying happens outside of the airlines, in the military, Bush flying, aero medical and the like.
My flying stopped almost two decades ago when I joined an airline. Since then I have basically flown the same hour 13000 times. And I have been lucky enough to fly several types to help stop some of the boredom.
When flying with those that know nothing other than airline flying, you can not sit about and talk about flying stories of the past as they have none. This is a sad reflection of where this industry has gone. I honestly feel sorry for those starting a career today as all the good stuff has been stripped away.
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Nope, Don described the "normal" life of a longhaul Pilot with the current automation. There is a reason why the FAA is concerned about the manual flying ability.
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Momo, I really don't want to pi$$ on your bonfire. You are obviously very keen, and I hope you do whatever job makes you happy.
These are current longhaul pilots describing things as they really are.
Do the job for a few years, then you are also qualified to comment.
These are current longhaul pilots describing things as they really are.
Do the job for a few years, then you are also qualified to comment.
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Because a lot of people don't know the reality. Call it BSJ syndrome, or rose tinted glasses, whatever. For a lot of young people it's still a dream, not only a job.
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Momo95 without as others have said wanting to piss on your bonfire, please read your own words here.
"I am aware many hate the career, many view it as boring, the cash involved is ludicrous, t&c's are dropping across the board etc etc ..."
And you still want to join the party !!!
Cadets in yester year spent many hours in smaller machines, learning the trade so to speak as second officers, in the Hamble days, as BA were the only ones to my recollection doing cadets in the 70's & 80"s in the UK, gaining many hours before becoming First Officers. No licence to F/O, to Big Shiny Jet in 2000 hours did not happen.
I came up what was called the self improver route and hit my first jet with 1000 hours which was still cock all, and can tell you like a lot of my colleagues at the time, the learning curve was mighty steep.
As a Cadet you will be qualified to sit in the Right Hand Seat of whatever aircraft you are put on, but as someone who used to have to train Cadets, I spent many an hour operating as single crew because the person in the RHS hadn't got a clue what was going on, and that's not criticism, it's a fact of life, due to the inexperience of the person in the RHS.
As said before get your licence and time in before suggesting that 2000 hours is too much to be considered for a 777 or whatever. Only time and age will knock the BSJ syndrome out of you, you are not the first and definitely won't be the last, but at the end of the day an aeroplane is an aeroplane, and you will drag it from one airport to another at unsocial times of the day, for less pay and more hours.
"I am aware many hate the career, many view it as boring, the cash involved is ludicrous, t&c's are dropping across the board etc etc ..."
And you still want to join the party !!!
Cadets in yester year spent many hours in smaller machines, learning the trade so to speak as second officers, in the Hamble days, as BA were the only ones to my recollection doing cadets in the 70's & 80"s in the UK, gaining many hours before becoming First Officers. No licence to F/O, to Big Shiny Jet in 2000 hours did not happen.
I came up what was called the self improver route and hit my first jet with 1000 hours which was still cock all, and can tell you like a lot of my colleagues at the time, the learning curve was mighty steep.
As a Cadet you will be qualified to sit in the Right Hand Seat of whatever aircraft you are put on, but as someone who used to have to train Cadets, I spent many an hour operating as single crew because the person in the RHS hadn't got a clue what was going on, and that's not criticism, it's a fact of life, due to the inexperience of the person in the RHS.
As said before get your licence and time in before suggesting that 2000 hours is too much to be considered for a 777 or whatever. Only time and age will knock the BSJ syndrome out of you, you are not the first and definitely won't be the last, but at the end of the day an aeroplane is an aeroplane, and you will drag it from one airport to another at unsocial times of the day, for less pay and more hours.
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Yup. Perfect statement. You just need a little time to figure it out.
I wish you and all the other BSJ people luck. In the end, you'll only know if it was the right decision to sell your soul to EK when you finally throw in the towel.
Big shiny jet = awesome (immediate reaction)
Throw in many years of 8 days off flying all over the world, no work rules, no rights, the stress that you could be hauled in the office and fired/threatened during ANY time, AND ONLY THEN, when you look at yourself in the mirror and see how many years you just put on your body for a company that continually and purposefully screws you... ...then you'll know if you made the right decision.
Unfortunately, the grass is always greener, or so I hear.
I must add, however, that completely disregarding all of the posts on these forums is a bit cavalier and, well, naive.
I wish you and all the other BSJ people luck. In the end, you'll only know if it was the right decision to sell your soul to EK when you finally throw in the towel.
Big shiny jet = awesome (immediate reaction)
Throw in many years of 8 days off flying all over the world, no work rules, no rights, the stress that you could be hauled in the office and fired/threatened during ANY time, AND ONLY THEN, when you look at yourself in the mirror and see how many years you just put on your body for a company that continually and purposefully screws you... ...then you'll know if you made the right decision.
Unfortunately, the grass is always greener, or so I hear.
I must add, however, that completely disregarding all of the posts on these forums is a bit cavalier and, well, naive.
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The words expat and loyalty hold little correlation. In the eyes of the employer we are here to perform a task and in the eyes of the employee, we are here to gain as much as we can from our tenure as an expat. Similar to a mercenary in many respects and especially so here in the Gulf, where our moral conscience is sidelined to the expected financial gain.
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Unfortunately guys, the momo generation is the future. Gardenshed, Chipotle, and donpizmeov, we have to endure this until we leave. The past will never return. This is the new reality and thankfully I am on my last decade in the business. It will never resemble what we lived the last 3 decades. Particularly in the ME. My first widebody job, 25 yrs ago required 5k with 1k tpic to even be considered. Sure cadet programs have been around for years, but it doesnt give one the experience required to be the most effective pilot. Qualified and effective have different meaning now versus previous times.
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Unfortunately guys, the momo generation is the future.
It brings the grass is greener to a whole different level!
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momo95, firstly good luck to you, ignore all the vitriol from the crusty old b$stards. Once upon a time, they were just like you trying to get a career going flying airplanes and doing whatever needed to be done to achieve that. The world and aviation has changed dramatically in the lat 25 years, it's is not a nicer place. Standards have dropped in both flying skills and management attitudes to meet the new commercial norms. Don't ignore what is written on these forums, they provide some very good information about the domain we work in now a days. I hope you navigate your chosen career with luck and good choices, not that easy to do any longer.
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Momo95, first do your CPL/IR before even thinking about the Triple@ek, it's still a long way...
And yes 2000 hrs is very low to get onto a triple, unheard...
Even the lucky cadets (BA, AF etc) started on 737, A320...
I just hope for my own sake that EK will not lower their requirements even more...
I have been lucky on the A380, most guys (F/Os) have lots and lots of experience...
After my CPL/IR I was dreaming to fly a king air... different times, different generation indeed.
And yes 2000 hrs is very low to get onto a triple, unheard...
Even the lucky cadets (BA, AF etc) started on 737, A320...
I just hope for my own sake that EK will not lower their requirements even more...
I have been lucky on the A380, most guys (F/Os) have lots and lots of experience...
After my CPL/IR I was dreaming to fly a king air... different times, different generation indeed.
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The 2000 hr requirement is excessive
Just to clarify - I'm not on an MPL course. It is CPL/IR then the A320TR
2000hrs is nothing to be in a heavy over the North Pole 207 ETOPs etc etc when the old crusty in the LHS keels over, then something else happens (always happens in 3's doesn't it
). Make no mistake you are there for such moments, not just to go for A-B and take pictures on the beach. The road to the heavies used to give people that experience, you simply don't have it with 2000hrs. Would you really want a doctor straight out of med school to be operating on your heart or the like? I certainly wouldn't. I want the old crusty who has served his time, started on simpler tasks, tonsillectomy and the like etc etc before he gets his hands on the tough stuff.
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@momo95
Nothing wrong with dreaming of flying the big jets. The difference being you are not entitled to it, as many pilots of your generation tend to think. Also nothing wrong with joining a cadet program. You have to start somewhere and you are lucky to have that option nowadays. Just do us and yourself a favor and fly that A320 for 10 years, practicing as much as possible manual flying and visual approaches before you come join EK.
@nicosnoko
"Lots of experience on the 380"? Really? They do hire 2000 hours FOs. And we do have 6000 hours total time captains. I wouldn't consider that lots of experience.
By the way, what is the story of the 2 stripe FOs on both fleets? And I'm not referring to the national cadets.
Nothing wrong with dreaming of flying the big jets. The difference being you are not entitled to it, as many pilots of your generation tend to think. Also nothing wrong with joining a cadet program. You have to start somewhere and you are lucky to have that option nowadays. Just do us and yourself a favor and fly that A320 for 10 years, practicing as much as possible manual flying and visual approaches before you come join EK.
@nicosnoko
"Lots of experience on the 380"? Really? They do hire 2000 hours FOs. And we do have 6000 hours total time captains. I wouldn't consider that lots of experience.
By the way, what is the story of the 2 stripe FOs on both fleets? And I'm not referring to the national cadets.
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The allure of the old faded jet (OFJ)
With +33 years in this business under my belt, and enough years in LHS that I certainly don't need the hours any more, its my experience that the guys (& gals) who came up through (how shall I put this?) the 'more traditional aviation apprenticeship' are (imho) invariably better stick & rudder fliers, being not scared to actually / manually fly the aeroplane (and indeed they often elect to), are a lot less reliant on the magic of a pink string & FD's, and have better SA.
For what it's worth, I left the sandpit almost exactly one year ago and am now (happily) back flying a 737 'Classic'... veritably the allure of the old faded jet (OFJ)... but I'm loving it,... or more especially loving the challenge (again) of getting around the track with all of the limitations wrt aircraft (of that 'vintage') reliability & capability, or lack of it!
Now, as the Head-of-Training (HoT), I'm actively encouraging my pilots (LHS & RHS) to turn off all the automatics and actually fly the f'ing aeroplane and to look out of the f'ing window.... indeed a lot a places that we fly to (in Africa) have no approach aids, no runway lights, no papi's, no ground / approach radar & **** ATC... and sometimes just finding these places (in an aeroplane with no GPS and a massive 'map shift'.... some you old'uns will know & remember what I'm talking about) can be 'challenging'. You have to find landmarks / ground features to guide yourself by and, to keep it safe, you have apply all your cunning, wiles, SA, and airmanship... and that last one by the way is the 'A' word that shall not speak its name, it now being loathed by airlines that operate those BSJ's.... indeed woe betide that their pilots ever indulge themselves in some 'airmanship', forsooth.... I can see my HoT counterparts in those BSJ airlines going apoplectic at the mere thought of it... wherein more rules & procedures is their MO & mantra !
So I'm trying my best to provide those F/O's (and some Captain's) presently under my wing with a proper old school apprenticeship, with crusty old bastards in the LHS to keep them honest & show them the way, and I like to think that those F/O's who'll one day leave (invariably for the allure of the BSJ) will at least by then have the airmanship basics under their belt... which might stand them (and their pax) in good stead on the proverbial dark & stormy night and, from which, I will have the satisfaction of having done my (old school) job correctly !
Unfortunately, I rather suspect that the likes of Momo95 will, invariably, get little or non of the above 'learning opportunity', i.e. when he jumps aboard that BSJ (wherein it'll very likely be full auto this and full auto that... plus lots of pink string... and a trip to the sim once in a while to revisit how to fly by hand & eye, but only barely so).... but, maybe that's all that some of them want? I.e. to don a uniform (often with a hat too at some BSJ airlines), sport some Ray-Bans (personally I prefer Serengeti's), with a copy of D.P.Davies 'Handling the Big Jets' seemingly thrown nonchalantly (albeit in clear public view) on the rear parcel shelf of their car, and to be able call themselves an 'airline pilot'. Uhm... the real pilots amongst us will certainly know the sort of chap I'm on about?!.. wherein there are airline pilots and there are airline pilots.
For what it's worth, I left the sandpit almost exactly one year ago and am now (happily) back flying a 737 'Classic'... veritably the allure of the old faded jet (OFJ)... but I'm loving it,... or more especially loving the challenge (again) of getting around the track with all of the limitations wrt aircraft (of that 'vintage') reliability & capability, or lack of it!
Now, as the Head-of-Training (HoT), I'm actively encouraging my pilots (LHS & RHS) to turn off all the automatics and actually fly the f'ing aeroplane and to look out of the f'ing window.... indeed a lot a places that we fly to (in Africa) have no approach aids, no runway lights, no papi's, no ground / approach radar & **** ATC... and sometimes just finding these places (in an aeroplane with no GPS and a massive 'map shift'.... some you old'uns will know & remember what I'm talking about) can be 'challenging'. You have to find landmarks / ground features to guide yourself by and, to keep it safe, you have apply all your cunning, wiles, SA, and airmanship... and that last one by the way is the 'A' word that shall not speak its name, it now being loathed by airlines that operate those BSJ's.... indeed woe betide that their pilots ever indulge themselves in some 'airmanship', forsooth.... I can see my HoT counterparts in those BSJ airlines going apoplectic at the mere thought of it... wherein more rules & procedures is their MO & mantra !
So I'm trying my best to provide those F/O's (and some Captain's) presently under my wing with a proper old school apprenticeship, with crusty old bastards in the LHS to keep them honest & show them the way, and I like to think that those F/O's who'll one day leave (invariably for the allure of the BSJ) will at least by then have the airmanship basics under their belt... which might stand them (and their pax) in good stead on the proverbial dark & stormy night and, from which, I will have the satisfaction of having done my (old school) job correctly !
Unfortunately, I rather suspect that the likes of Momo95 will, invariably, get little or non of the above 'learning opportunity', i.e. when he jumps aboard that BSJ (wherein it'll very likely be full auto this and full auto that... plus lots of pink string... and a trip to the sim once in a while to revisit how to fly by hand & eye, but only barely so).... but, maybe that's all that some of them want? I.e. to don a uniform (often with a hat too at some BSJ airlines), sport some Ray-Bans (personally I prefer Serengeti's), with a copy of D.P.Davies 'Handling the Big Jets' seemingly thrown nonchalantly (albeit in clear public view) on the rear parcel shelf of their car, and to be able call themselves an 'airline pilot'. Uhm... the real pilots amongst us will certainly know the sort of chap I'm on about?!.. wherein there are airline pilots and there are airline pilots.
I suspect OKC your post has passed effortlessly over the heads of many of its intended recipients due in no small part to most of them not having..or ever been given a clue, far better for the gel to be wet and the aviators gleaming than to have an ounce of resilience or common sense.
Ahhh the days of map shift, landing where the database said there was no runway and of course my little note book of tricks and circuit breaker pulls and pushes to reset the jet.
Ahhh the days of map shift, landing where the database said there was no runway and of course my little note book of tricks and circuit breaker pulls and pushes to reset the jet.
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Monarch Man:
Genuinely ROFLOL and ain't that the truth ! 
Ahhh the days of map shift, landing where the database said there was no runway and of course my little note book of tricks and circuit breaker pulls and pushes to reset the jet.
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I totally agree with Old King's post, I have a similar experience, after MD11 and B777 I had the pleasure to go back to that amazing machine that is the 737 where I called myself a 'pilot' again because to be honest, when you work on those carriers where you engage the autopilot at 200 ft then you disconnect at whatever altitude close to the ground, you are more a machine operator than a pilot... You can fool the flower shop next to your home but reality is different. I see people flattered when they say they fly big airplanes or the polar route and I say, seriously ? I agree totally that 2000 hours are not a big baggage of experience but imho I can say that the old times are gone, airplanes are much more reliable, pilot school have airplanes with full glass cockpit plus LNAV\VNAV so they are perfect for this new generation of pilots, forget about the skills we learned flying real airplanes but this is the future unfortunately.
For those who feel like Charles Elwood Yeager because they fly big airplanes, remember that, for pilots coming from conventional airplanes, flying in really demanding enviroment, with really short runways in the middle of the mountains, transitioning to a B777 or Airbus 380 will be a piece of cake, especially for the enviroment they operate in, assuming that they are good pilots of course, I've seen pilots with thousand of "hours" failing checks at Emirates as well so it all depend on who we are not on what we fly.
I transitioned myself from the 737 to the MD11 at the time and it was the easiest step I've ever done.
We were very lucky to receive that tough training from our tough instructors.
I agree on one thing, the attitude of those new pilots that want everything immediately, that is not good, they think they deserve what they want, no matter what.
For those who feel like Charles Elwood Yeager because they fly big airplanes, remember that, for pilots coming from conventional airplanes, flying in really demanding enviroment, with really short runways in the middle of the mountains, transitioning to a B777 or Airbus 380 will be a piece of cake, especially for the enviroment they operate in, assuming that they are good pilots of course, I've seen pilots with thousand of "hours" failing checks at Emirates as well so it all depend on who we are not on what we fly.
I transitioned myself from the 737 to the MD11 at the time and it was the easiest step I've ever done.
We were very lucky to receive that tough training from our tough instructors.
I agree on one thing, the attitude of those new pilots that want everything immediately, that is not good, they think they deserve what they want, no matter what.
Great post okc. The only point that is unlikely / unrealistic is the 'Handling the Big Jets' on the back seat. The majority of the newbies have never heard of D P Davies, let alone read the book... Great to hear that you have successfully exited the 'land of dreams' that is dubbers and have moved on to high office. I completely concur with your views on airmanship and the modern day aviation landscape in general. I suppose it is probably unfair to blame the 'yoonger generation' as they are sold these ludicrous dreams of glamour and riches through the likes of ctc etc. Probably the key to a long career is a certain enthusiasm for aviation at the start. That will at least sustain you until jet lag and ennui set in. Enthusiasm and humility can take you a long way...
Give my regards to the ITCZ...
Cheers from your former Palm Jumeira neighbour...
Give my regards to the ITCZ...
Cheers from your former Palm Jumeira neighbour...
