Parc to provide temp EK pilots?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Blighty
Posts: 568
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ice, I didn't say that conversion from 73 to triple was difficult but I will say that having flown "heavies" for years before joining EK is that operating a 777 in some of the places we operate them into can be challenging no matter how experienced you are.
What I was pointing out however is that we should be looking after the good guys that we already have.
I often fly with First Officers here that meet the age and hours requirement plus the "seniority" and ability required to be a captain only to be frozen because we can't attract suitably qualified pilots to replace them in the right hand seat once they move over and instead EK has to lower itself to stalking guys on social media to see if they want to join as DECs, now that's wrong no matter which side of the fence you're sitting on!
What I was pointing out however is that we should be looking after the good guys that we already have.
I often fly with First Officers here that meet the age and hours requirement plus the "seniority" and ability required to be a captain only to be frozen because we can't attract suitably qualified pilots to replace them in the right hand seat once they move over and instead EK has to lower itself to stalking guys on social media to see if they want to join as DECs, now that's wrong no matter which side of the fence you're sitting on!
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems like the organisations described in this guys article could well include EK:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/has-s...raham-hamilton
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/has-s...raham-hamilton
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Dubai
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we're going to see this more and more in the industry, the advent of contracting companies being involved in sourcing pilots for major airlines around the world.
And as a pilot who enjoys the attraction of being able to experience living in different countries around the world, I would definitely be interested doing a term with EK if the terms were right.
And as a pilot who enjoys the attraction of being able to experience living in different countries around the world, I would definitely be interested doing a term with EK if the terms were right.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Except applying to a carrier that is established in the contract world and has a proven history of actually delivering what they offer from the outset.
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have your future career to lose.
It's killing this industry.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You just summed up the P2F mindset in one sentence.
I spoke about working as a contractor and being paid to do so.
Where is the correlation? I despise P2F actually.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JA saying "I can't say because its commercially in confidence".
It is only a sensitive bit of info as the number is so high! If it were a normal attrition rate due to long timers retiring the number would not be an issue.
It is only a sensitive bit of info as the number is so high! If it were a normal attrition rate due to long timers retiring the number would not be an issue.
Personally I have a lot of time for JA, he has been a complete gent in regards to a couple of issues I needed resolving. The whole seniority thing as we know comes from higher up, and is designed to hide the reality, JAs "commercial sensitive" comment is his way of saying what he can't say...read between the lines guys.
I heard recently that the calendar Jan to Dec number who left or resigned etc is a bit north of 400 and some.
I heard recently that the calendar Jan to Dec number who left or resigned etc is a bit north of 400 and some.
My humble opinion is the fact that as far as the general populace of staff don't have access to commuting then why should the pilots.
I know this is short sighted, however the flight crew envy rears it's ugly head from every department.
Nothing new, but to retain crew this needs to be addressed.
halas
I know this is short sighted, however the flight crew envy rears it's ugly head from every department.
Nothing new, but to retain crew this needs to be addressed.
halas
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Dubai
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Senority list is a bit hard to reveal a clear picture thise days, but here is the facts. I was hired ultimo 2012. in 4 years 600 pilots in front of me have left. I have now 1600 behind me aprox. The total number as per date. 4245 pilots. It Will be interesting to see how much that number will drop over the next coming month if those rumors are true. Profit share this year will hardly keep people around.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
5.5% is the figure for October 2015 to '16, so the 10% being quoted is wide of the mark. However, over 200 pilots leaving, or around 4 every week, is still not an insignificant amount. Most airlines can expect a rough 2-2.5% with an expat airline slightly higher, maybe 3-3.5 absolute tops. As Monarch Man said, the fact that he can't quote the figure says it all.
I also agree that JA is inherently honourable, as is MM & HD but their hands are tied. The major filter in the system is obvious but loss of face, culture and arrogant incompetence prevents this irksome individual from admitting he got it wrong. I pity MM to be honest, as the number of times he has to apologise to the trainers for broken promises is constant. The experienced ones are either leaving or, so demotivated to not really care much either way. Any further promises of 'improvements just around the corner' are met with derisory "whatevers" or "I'll believe it when I see it", "Heard it all before", "I shan't hold my breath".
Ironically, despite their positions, all those mentioned probably have less actual authority and control on their day to day work environment than we do!
With the pilot recruitment team depleted and the cabin crew one disbanded altogether, for at least 12 months, I can see no improvement on the horizon whatsoever. When the Company starts sending emails to previous unsuccessful candidates, you know we've hit rock bottom.
Harry
I also agree that JA is inherently honourable, as is MM & HD but their hands are tied. The major filter in the system is obvious but loss of face, culture and arrogant incompetence prevents this irksome individual from admitting he got it wrong. I pity MM to be honest, as the number of times he has to apologise to the trainers for broken promises is constant. The experienced ones are either leaving or, so demotivated to not really care much either way. Any further promises of 'improvements just around the corner' are met with derisory "whatevers" or "I'll believe it when I see it", "Heard it all before", "I shan't hold my breath".
Ironically, despite their positions, all those mentioned probably have less actual authority and control on their day to day work environment than we do!
With the pilot recruitment team depleted and the cabin crew one disbanded altogether, for at least 12 months, I can see no improvement on the horizon whatsoever. When the Company starts sending emails to previous unsuccessful candidates, you know we've hit rock bottom.
Harry
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Halas says the "Flight Crew Envy" is a really big issue here.
However, an airline without enough pilots just becomes an aircraft storage company.
There are many disparities between Ground/Office staff and Flight Crew/Operational staff, leave and weekends are just a couple.
As far as I know EK has NEVER had an issue recruiting Ground/Office staff, consequently no recruiting or package incentives are needed. The same cannot be said for Aircrew, Engineers etc.
Its a marketplace and EK having been THE place to come has rapidly become THE place to avoid, for anyone with historic experience. Not my personal spin but direct feedback from chums with ticks in all the boxes whom I have known for years.
This is sad as it used to be the best expat job out there................................
However, an airline without enough pilots just becomes an aircraft storage company.
There are many disparities between Ground/Office staff and Flight Crew/Operational staff, leave and weekends are just a couple.
As far as I know EK has NEVER had an issue recruiting Ground/Office staff, consequently no recruiting or package incentives are needed. The same cannot be said for Aircrew, Engineers etc.
Its a marketplace and EK having been THE place to come has rapidly become THE place to avoid, for anyone with historic experience. Not my personal spin but direct feedback from chums with ticks in all the boxes whom I have known for years.
This is sad as it used to be the best expat job out there................................
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ha ha, no, it's the only dates that were quoted.
I can't disclose the source, obviously, but it is reliable. There are only a handful of people who know the exact number of leavers and whether that figure has increased recently, only they will know. However, the 10% being banded about is an exaggeration.
What is clear, regardless of the actual % figure, is that the attrition rate is of huge concern. Not only in crewing aircraft, but in attracting experienced pilots to replace those that leave. We are starting to become the 'Ryanair' of the Middle East with an ever increasing number of low hour pilots joining. This is not inferring disrespect in anyway to those employed by Ryanair, merely that the dynamics within the airline has changed. Our Captains are becoming less experienced and often with a commensurate lack of confidence. We are starting to become an 'on the job training airline', something that many new Captains are ill equipped to handle. We rarely, if ever, offer feedback and very few F/O's ask for it. Poor performance and attitude, as well as reduced knowledge goes unchecked. Basic handling, taxying and operating skills become less common. Even simple descent planning becomes difficult for those unfamiliar with jet energy management or those over reliant on VNAV. Crew are not being encouraged big picture but are trained to detail by new trainers, keen to demonstrate their knowledge. Combine this with the very challenging environment in which we operate, and the holes are being lined up nicely. The increasing number of marginal passes and failures during training supports this. Further, Add in the number of experienced TRE's leaving and the mess is multiplied. This has become a major Flight Safety concern in my opinion.
It's not pretty!
Harry
I can't disclose the source, obviously, but it is reliable. There are only a handful of people who know the exact number of leavers and whether that figure has increased recently, only they will know. However, the 10% being banded about is an exaggeration.
What is clear, regardless of the actual % figure, is that the attrition rate is of huge concern. Not only in crewing aircraft, but in attracting experienced pilots to replace those that leave. We are starting to become the 'Ryanair' of the Middle East with an ever increasing number of low hour pilots joining. This is not inferring disrespect in anyway to those employed by Ryanair, merely that the dynamics within the airline has changed. Our Captains are becoming less experienced and often with a commensurate lack of confidence. We are starting to become an 'on the job training airline', something that many new Captains are ill equipped to handle. We rarely, if ever, offer feedback and very few F/O's ask for it. Poor performance and attitude, as well as reduced knowledge goes unchecked. Basic handling, taxying and operating skills become less common. Even simple descent planning becomes difficult for those unfamiliar with jet energy management or those over reliant on VNAV. Crew are not being encouraged big picture but are trained to detail by new trainers, keen to demonstrate their knowledge. Combine this with the very challenging environment in which we operate, and the holes are being lined up nicely. The increasing number of marginal passes and failures during training supports this. Further, Add in the number of experienced TRE's leaving and the mess is multiplied. This has become a major Flight Safety concern in my opinion.
It's not pretty!
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 8th Mar 2017 at 12:07.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: london
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its so worrying that EK521 wasnt enough to change things here and they will wait till there is a smoking hole in the ground with many fatalities to do it... Time is nearly up for me here and only priority is go home healthy and in one piece. Never thought I would hate this job sooooooo much but I do...!!!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Harry, I agree and yes Jetkopite, TCSTC has quite a lot to answer for. Apart from being highly unhealthy, it's a remarkable achievement to have employees display such level of anger towards an employer. It's against natural human instincts.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harry, and all other EK remainers
This is a never ending cycle of ever decreasing circles, but rest assured no one cares. Yes there might be a consolatory word or two spoken at the various fleet things etc, or perhaps a carefully worded email from the higher ups I'm guessing, but the key element is they couldn't give 2 sh1ts about what you, your friends, your colleagues or the various senior trainers and middle managers think. Your most likely accurate thoughts and opinions are mere irrelevant annoyances to their enlightened views regarding the reality as they want too see it, and shape it. When the house of cards collapses, and it will be sudden, there will be howls of shock and horror, but nothing will be heard from the higher floors nor will there be even an utter with a hint of remorse or culpability, moreover the chief architect will merely move on to other projects safe in the knowledge of a superior genetic makeup and bank balance.
What a shame when so many have seen this coming for a long time, get out fellas while you still can.
What is clear, regardless of the actual % figure, is that the attrition rate is of huge concern. Not only in crewing aircraft, but in attracting experienced pilots to replace those that leave. We are starting to become the 'Ryanair' of the Middle East with an ever increasing number of low hour pilots joining. This is not inferring disrespect in anyway to those employed by Ryanair, merely that the dynamics within the airline has changed. Our Captains are becoming less experienced and often with a commensurate lack of confidence. We are starting to become an 'on the job training airline', something that many new Captains are ill equipped to handle. We rarely, if ever, offer feedback and very few F/O's ask for it. Poor performance and attitude, as well as reduced knowledge goes unchecked. Basic handling, taxying and operating skills become less common. Even simple descent planning becomes difficult for those unfamiliar with jet energy management or those over reliant on VNAV. Crew are not being encouraged big picture but are trained to detail by new trainers, keen to demonstrate their knowledge. Combine this with the very challenging environment in which we operate, and the holes are being lined up nicely. The increasing number of marginal passes and failures during training supports this. Further, Add in the number of experienced TRE's leaving and the mess is multiplied.
What a shame when so many have seen this coming for a long time, get out fellas while you still can.