Has EK been the worst decision ever?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And 777200LR, of course we can be bought one way or another....thats how we came here in the first place.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
Posts: 957
Received 116 Likes
on
57 Posts
A substantial pay rise would keep me here. If others think the same, that would reduce attrition, attract experienced new jouners and improve quality of life. There is no way, imho, to meaningfully address the qol issues here without a substantial pay rise.
Alternatively, EK can continue to lose numbers, lose experience and park aircraft.
Alternatively, EK can continue to lose numbers, lose experience and park aircraft.
A substantial payrise would work. And would be the first step of getting of getting new pilots to join, which would help rosters, which would get more to stay etc etc. It is an obvious answer. However those that are responsible for the decision are trying to find a cheaper way out. Their answer will not work, and the mess will only continue to get messier.
Harold,
TICH was the big cheese of safety before his present job. Did you see any improvement while he sat in that office? During his current tenure of seat warming, the rate of pilots leaving has increased. When was the last time he turned up to a training meeting? He is noneffective. Yes he was handed a poisonous chalice, but he accepted that job when others did not. He may be a lovely fella, but if you need him to act according to his present role you will be left disappointed. Blaming pilots for the lack of new candidates is a good indication of his situation awareness.
Harold,
TICH was the big cheese of safety before his present job. Did you see any improvement while he sat in that office? During his current tenure of seat warming, the rate of pilots leaving has increased. When was the last time he turned up to a training meeting? He is noneffective. Yes he was handed a poisonous chalice, but he accepted that job when others did not. He may be a lovely fella, but if you need him to act according to his present role you will be left disappointed. Blaming pilots for the lack of new candidates is a good indication of his situation awareness.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don
We may have to disagree on a few points.
Firstly, I'm not sure what 'improvements' you envisaged during his tenure within FS but he was certainly more proactive and visible than the previous incumbent, TJ.
Secondly, as for others not accepting the role as DVSP, it was not offered to anyone else. He was personally asked to apply. His acceptance letter from STC was promptly dispatched the very next morning before he could 'decide'. HD is somewhat of a political animal for sure and I don't doubt for one minute that he'll put his own lucrative career and families future on the line for us. However, he does have the support from JA and MM and between them, they may have some influence on AAR. May! I agree though that he's been slow to effect change and also somewhat naive towards the current discontent amongst pilots and their reasons for leaving.
Finally, management at training meetings is now done by training managers. If you want to discuss issues other than training, go to the fleet forums. That's what they've been designed for. Personally, I don't bother. Did anything useful ever come out of those wash ups anyway?
As for your first paragraph, I agree entirely.
Harry
We may have to disagree on a few points.
Firstly, I'm not sure what 'improvements' you envisaged during his tenure within FS but he was certainly more proactive and visible than the previous incumbent, TJ.
Secondly, as for others not accepting the role as DVSP, it was not offered to anyone else. He was personally asked to apply. His acceptance letter from STC was promptly dispatched the very next morning before he could 'decide'. HD is somewhat of a political animal for sure and I don't doubt for one minute that he'll put his own lucrative career and families future on the line for us. However, he does have the support from JA and MM and between them, they may have some influence on AAR. May! I agree though that he's been slow to effect change and also somewhat naive towards the current discontent amongst pilots and their reasons for leaving.
Finally, management at training meetings is now done by training managers. If you want to discuss issues other than training, go to the fleet forums. That's what they've been designed for. Personally, I don't bother. Did anything useful ever come out of those wash ups anyway?
As for your first paragraph, I agree entirely.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 25th Mar 2017 at 19:55.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Around 15 years ago, pilots in Aer Lingus pilots supported industrial action over the suspension of a handful of pilots that refused to accept a reduction in rest periods that had been implemented by the company but not ratified by the union and were rejected by nearly all of the pilot work force after a ballot. The Chief Pilot and Flight Ops Manager at the time was none other than HD.
Putting the intricacies of the reason for the industrial action to one side, it takes some doing when you manage to drive your pilots to the point where their level of dissatisfaction and disillusionment turns them to the point where they consider industrial action.
Putting the intricacies of the reason for the industrial action to one side, it takes some doing when you manage to drive your pilots to the point where their level of dissatisfaction and disillusionment turns them to the point where they consider industrial action.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree though that he's been slow to effect change and also somewhat naive towards the current discontent amongst pilots and their reasons for leaving.
And you are still defending him?
There were situations in history where upper echelons could not change much as well, but still they were charged of collaboration.
You accept any responsibility and renumeration or advantages for it, you have to accept accountability, irrespective of any inhibiting sc*mbags above you.
..... or renounce the position and keep your decency.
A MEANINGFUL pay rise (at least 20% plus increment) WILL make a difference to a a large enough percentage that attrition will reduce to primarily retirees and US mainline bound crew. They must reward those who stay-stick and bigger stick no longer crews aircraft. As also stated it will attract more applicants with obvious flow on benefits. No it won't balance immediate QOL issues but it will reverse the tide-which will improve QOL in the mid term. Most do not want to go to China, KAL etc but see no other viable option to maintain longevity/family. Allowing the experience drain to continue has to be hugely detrimental to continued safe operations.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's part of me that feels pity for some of you that don't have options for bailing out, the rest of you I'm afraid will have to accept that it doesn't and never will matter what you say or think. Your opinions based on every common sense metric are correct, but only in your reality, the alternative reality that exists in the rarified atmosphere on the higher floors in Al Gahoud is different to yours.
Funnily enough my current boss described the mentality rather well. On discussions with him (CEO of a multinational) about what's going on in aviation and EK in general, he viewed it as nothing more than a transactional relationship with no more thought given to individuals welfare than for example what colour tie to wear to the office etc. In simple terms you are more expensive labourers than most, but you are still labourers.
The layers between yourselves and the decision makers insulate the egos higher up and provide a convenient scapegoat for nationals in positions that they are niether qualified for or capable of fulfilling.
TICH is just another sociopath in a long line, all of whom will discard you faster than their navel lint if it meant more money in their back pocket.
Funnily enough my current boss described the mentality rather well. On discussions with him (CEO of a multinational) about what's going on in aviation and EK in general, he viewed it as nothing more than a transactional relationship with no more thought given to individuals welfare than for example what colour tie to wear to the office etc. In simple terms you are more expensive labourers than most, but you are still labourers.
The layers between yourselves and the decision makers insulate the egos higher up and provide a convenient scapegoat for nationals in positions that they are niether qualified for or capable of fulfilling.
TICH is just another sociopath in a long line, all of whom will discard you faster than their navel lint if it meant more money in their back pocket.
And yet people still work on days off. Egits
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Here
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My point of view regarding EK
Hello all,
Just an honest story regarding my experience in EK. I have been here now a good 2 years and before you check my profile, I made this account as my previous account information is lost. You can see this as a lie or the truth but Im not here to discuss that.
This is not a post to recruit people. Im not from management which I expect loads of you will say after I finish. Im not judging anyone here on this forum or in EK. Everyone has their own reasons to be happy/pissed/miserable or accepting of what is happening at this stage.
Anyway here goes.
I'm a 28 year old FO on the 777. Live with my wife in company accommodation in a nice area close to many facilities and places to visit. I have worked for a very well known carrier in Europe which I enjoyed working for but due to the low salary wasnt an option anymore.
I have joined EK purely on the fact that I want to make money to pay off my loan. My goal is to stay 7-10 years. Im not here to build a career. In the last year I managed to pay off 10% of my loan ( 200k ) which is more than I did in the 6 years in my previous company.
Reason for this post is that I've been talking to loads of friends/ex-colleagues and even have seen it here on this forum. People base their decision to come to EK/EY/QR by reading this forum and that is a mistake. You are basing your decision on information which is brought to you by people who are not in your shoes. Neither are you in theirs. You have to look at your goals.
I have spoken to guys who said, Yeah I'm not gonna join... have you seen pprune? I then show them my roster from the last 6 months and my payslips and they are regretting not joining. Purely on the fact they read information here by people who are fed up and done with EK. Which is completely understandable if you have been here for a long time and seen it deteriorate to the state it is now. But that state is better than some companies.
I for example have been asked many many times who on earth I joined this "****" company. When I tell them my story and experiences/reasons they agree and they even think it was wise for me to come. These are the same guys who 30min before I told them my reasons told me that I was (and I quote) 'a ******* idiot'.
Positive people or people who accept what is going on wont be on this forum. They won't react to me or any other post whatsoever. Positive information spreading is deemed arrogant and in our current society not interesting. All media sorts ( news, radio, social etc. ) rather tell negative things because it attracts more people. Good example is teambuilding for new colleagues in offices. If any of you guys did this, you'll know what I talk about. During teambuilding there is always a leader who acts horribly just so the guys have something in common to complain about. And my god, complaining is lovely. Just **** this **** that and get angry with everything. It's what we love as humans, especially in this company.
I have met a lot of nice guys here in EK, even while the morale is very low. Most FOs and CPTs are very nice and a joy to talk to or spend your time with enroute.
Anyway please feel free to take this information as you want it. I'll probably be attacked by the regulars here that I'm management, Costa dweller, aiming for my own floor on US and what else you guys can think off.
This is my story and the truth.
I enjoy EK. I don't regret my choice and I hope I fly with any of you to enjoy your company.
Just an honest story regarding my experience in EK. I have been here now a good 2 years and before you check my profile, I made this account as my previous account information is lost. You can see this as a lie or the truth but Im not here to discuss that.
This is not a post to recruit people. Im not from management which I expect loads of you will say after I finish. Im not judging anyone here on this forum or in EK. Everyone has their own reasons to be happy/pissed/miserable or accepting of what is happening at this stage.
Anyway here goes.
I'm a 28 year old FO on the 777. Live with my wife in company accommodation in a nice area close to many facilities and places to visit. I have worked for a very well known carrier in Europe which I enjoyed working for but due to the low salary wasnt an option anymore.
I have joined EK purely on the fact that I want to make money to pay off my loan. My goal is to stay 7-10 years. Im not here to build a career. In the last year I managed to pay off 10% of my loan ( 200k ) which is more than I did in the 6 years in my previous company.
Reason for this post is that I've been talking to loads of friends/ex-colleagues and even have seen it here on this forum. People base their decision to come to EK/EY/QR by reading this forum and that is a mistake. You are basing your decision on information which is brought to you by people who are not in your shoes. Neither are you in theirs. You have to look at your goals.
I have spoken to guys who said, Yeah I'm not gonna join... have you seen pprune? I then show them my roster from the last 6 months and my payslips and they are regretting not joining. Purely on the fact they read information here by people who are fed up and done with EK. Which is completely understandable if you have been here for a long time and seen it deteriorate to the state it is now. But that state is better than some companies.
I for example have been asked many many times who on earth I joined this "****" company. When I tell them my story and experiences/reasons they agree and they even think it was wise for me to come. These are the same guys who 30min before I told them my reasons told me that I was (and I quote) 'a ******* idiot'.
Positive people or people who accept what is going on wont be on this forum. They won't react to me or any other post whatsoever. Positive information spreading is deemed arrogant and in our current society not interesting. All media sorts ( news, radio, social etc. ) rather tell negative things because it attracts more people. Good example is teambuilding for new colleagues in offices. If any of you guys did this, you'll know what I talk about. During teambuilding there is always a leader who acts horribly just so the guys have something in common to complain about. And my god, complaining is lovely. Just **** this **** that and get angry with everything. It's what we love as humans, especially in this company.
I have met a lot of nice guys here in EK, even while the morale is very low. Most FOs and CPTs are very nice and a joy to talk to or spend your time with enroute.
Anyway please feel free to take this information as you want it. I'll probably be attacked by the regulars here that I'm management, Costa dweller, aiming for my own floor on US and what else you guys can think off.
This is my story and the truth.
I enjoy EK. I don't regret my choice and I hope I fly with any of you to enjoy your company.
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hot place
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The company can't please everyone and whilst there are the perennial complainers the numbers don't lie. People are leaving and they're not being replaced as quickly. The 'if you don't like it then leave' approach hasn't done anyone any favours.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm in disagreement when it comes to the theory that complaining on here won't get you anywhere.
I have to believe in some small way that the mood expressed in various posts has worked it's way into the market perception while also forcing the Co's hand.
It was admitted as such by TICH in most recent Fleet Forum - while also being a go to place for journo's from respected sources (BBC) and some suspect ones (yes you RTL)
Had we not been on here as a pseudo central sorting office of the feelings amongst the troops - I'm not sure we would have achieved some of the small victories that have come our way in recent years.
Ground pay, sim pay, threshold reduced to 88 from 92, Biz firm on OAL deadheading, step continued upwards for the long term guys, roster publications earlier, South Asian TAs to layovers, monthly forums due complaints on here and elsewhere of abysmal comms, weekly walk-ins, ORD to 48, etc
Granted these are small and incremental BUT had we typed praise and rose tinted stories on here over the years - as the 'don't like it leave' starry eyed fresh ones would advocate- then the bean counters above would not be forced to alter the supply / demand curve that has been created by the negative (and accurate) view of EK that is now established in the market.
PPrune is not the only reason obviously- Fleet Forum feedback, school house banter, flight deck exchanges, ASRs, Volvo gossip, other reports, etc - but it remains a go to Forum when something new develops and quickly reflects the mood.
The falsehoods on here, in general, usually get called out by the more reasonable posters.
As long as we're here - I would encourage those thoughtful posters to continue taking the Co to task for their lack of competitiveness in the market - lets face it we don't have a union but we do have social media - and as the week has shown dramatically- in the airline business it can be most effective.
Helmut on, digging my trench, prepared for incoming.
Last edited by fliion; 16th Apr 2017 at 19:20.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In Fresh Air
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keep your head up. Very good post and accurate. Don't like it leave? When the opportunity arises, we leave. When kids finish the school year, we leave. When the spouse says "enough", we leave. When our retirement is sufficient, we leave. Our one says that they'll drive a truck instead of taking this nonsense, we leave. So mister salamalecom with your two posts, if you don't like it....leave. We do. Perhaps driving around the BC parking garage on a daily basis is making you dizzy.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 327
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another improvement in our race to the bottom...
Seems someone at the BC spent some of his budget on removing the sneak peek option we had for rosters. Surely money well spent...
Pretty sure mr SlalalaaaaMalecum is one of the many spending his free days browsing Costa on the second floor....
Seems someone at the BC spent some of his budget on removing the sneak peek option we had for rosters. Surely money well spent...
Pretty sure mr SlalalaaaaMalecum is one of the many spending his free days browsing Costa on the second floor....
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hot place
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Standard prune I guess. I agree completely with you. Whilst I consider these changes small, they are a step in the right direction. Still a long way off with the rosters and leave though and I can't see a light at the end of the tunnel with this one.