Has EK been the worst decision ever?
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Hunter,
The main issue isn't the money.
Constantly flying 100+ hours/month doing a combination a "low cost" type turnarounds in the middle of the night followed by a minimum rest longhaul flight in either direction and throw in the odd ULR sector, all of this on minimum days off and with no particular rules is the problem.
If you ever get 2 weeks leave, the rest of the month you are flogged and doing 60 plus hours negating any benefit of leave doesn't help either.
None of the above can be fixed by earning 60000aed/month in my view.
The main issue isn't the money.
Constantly flying 100+ hours/month doing a combination a "low cost" type turnarounds in the middle of the night followed by a minimum rest longhaul flight in either direction and throw in the odd ULR sector, all of this on minimum days off and with no particular rules is the problem.
If you ever get 2 weeks leave, the rest of the month you are flogged and doing 60 plus hours negating any benefit of leave doesn't help either.
None of the above can be fixed by earning 60000aed/month in my view.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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As Springbok says the cash isn't the problem. Its the crazy rosters and lack of lifestyle and time off with family that is causing the problem.
Leave these days is used as days off, it doesn't amount to a reduction in flying hours it just means the remainder of a full months flying is compressed into the remainder of the month. You are often actually more tired than without leave.
This is something that has to be addressed and urgently.
Leave these days is used as days off, it doesn't amount to a reduction in flying hours it just means the remainder of a full months flying is compressed into the remainder of the month. You are often actually more tired than without leave.
This is something that has to be addressed and urgently.
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So what to do about it?
No satire, genuine question.
My humble opinion is actually cash is a fast first step needed. Once we have a more suitable number of pilots for the flying EK does, then finally we will have some structure to work with.
There just isn't enough meat on the bones for anyone at the moment for any kind of plan.......we just move closer and closer to check mate.
No satire, genuine question.
My humble opinion is actually cash is a fast first step needed. Once we have a more suitable number of pilots for the flying EK does, then finally we will have some structure to work with.
There just isn't enough meat on the bones for anyone at the moment for any kind of plan.......we just move closer and closer to check mate.
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Banana and Potato are 2 airlines, I'll leave it for you to ask your cabin crew!
Yes only new guys get paid more, 15% more!
Cash is the only answer to ballooning cost of living Dubai inflation, rotten lifestyle with 6-7 days off, crazy hours up to 127hrs in a month, insane punitive culture from chief pilot sick calls to using leave in lieu of health benefits to clinic appointments fines and now super low levels of experience!!! Commercial license with only turboprop history?! Whaaat!!
Yes only new guys get paid more, 15% more!
Cash is the only answer to ballooning cost of living Dubai inflation, rotten lifestyle with 6-7 days off, crazy hours up to 127hrs in a month, insane punitive culture from chief pilot sick calls to using leave in lieu of health benefits to clinic appointments fines and now super low levels of experience!!! Commercial license with only turboprop history?! Whaaat!!
Join Date: Jun 2001
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So many posts here focus on popping up the pilot numbers as the solution to many of our ek issues.
Not that I disagree to an extent however the question is
when has ek ever been flush with pilots?
Even when the attrition rate was low, we still didn't have enough pilots.
Maybe my view is too simplistic....
The core problem is it's inate attitude towards the pilot fraternity.
The old broken record that by hiring more pilots will solve our rostering/ life style issues is flawed.
Management gods won't allow us to be rostered 70 odd hrs because it would then be perceived as being unproductive.
They want more pilots to allow them to expand and crew aircraft that have been ordered many years ago.
There is always a lag.
Their cost neutral attitude will always delay any forsight or the will to improve our life style NOW!
They want more pilots to maintain 90 hrs plus rosters not alleviate our already beaten bodies.
If they really wanted to improve our time at ek,
they may not be able to implement a better roster system in the short term but they could easily wipe out all internal restriction immediately.
At least give us a chance to improve our rosters without being impeded by rules that only aleniate us and frustrate us further,
Remove all day off restrictions, I'm not talking about only when bidding but overall.... let me swap and extend my days off....
It's a quick remedy to ease the lack of successful leave being allocated.
Anyway my 2 fills
Not that I disagree to an extent however the question is
when has ek ever been flush with pilots?
Even when the attrition rate was low, we still didn't have enough pilots.
Maybe my view is too simplistic....
The core problem is it's inate attitude towards the pilot fraternity.
The old broken record that by hiring more pilots will solve our rostering/ life style issues is flawed.
Management gods won't allow us to be rostered 70 odd hrs because it would then be perceived as being unproductive.
They want more pilots to allow them to expand and crew aircraft that have been ordered many years ago.
There is always a lag.
Their cost neutral attitude will always delay any forsight or the will to improve our life style NOW!
They want more pilots to maintain 90 hrs plus rosters not alleviate our already beaten bodies.
If they really wanted to improve our time at ek,
they may not be able to implement a better roster system in the short term but they could easily wipe out all internal restriction immediately.
At least give us a chance to improve our rosters without being impeded by rules that only aleniate us and frustrate us further,
Remove all day off restrictions, I'm not talking about only when bidding but overall.... let me swap and extend my days off....
It's a quick remedy to ease the lack of successful leave being allocated.
Anyway my 2 fills
Some years ago when shaking trees no longer produced the pilot numbers needed, the May pay rise was announced in Dec. The offer of more money back then, even if it was in the future, worked. After that, money as an incentive has been taboo. They lowered requirements to 2000hrs on a Barby jet. When this had claimed all its victims they offered turboprop Cpls a go. Then offered new joiners more money than those already trapped ....you see where I am going here?
Any new incentives will be aimed at getting new pilots through the door, rather than keeping the ones they already have. It wouldn't seem like a PHD study is needed to see why this is wrong, but these are the same guys that make up rostering rules, and leave rules, and when to send warning letter rules.
Now some cynics may think these people know fecking nothing, but believe me, they know **** all.
To have a modern fleet of widebodied aircraft, that fly all over the world, and still offer relatively quick commands, and still not be able to hire pilots (and this includes those that are willing to buy jobs elsewhere!) takes some doing. TICH can complain all he likes about what is written, but he and all those other office dwellers are fully responsible for the mess they have created. Next time they complain, perhaps we should remind them that if they don't like it they can leave.
Any new incentives will be aimed at getting new pilots through the door, rather than keeping the ones they already have. It wouldn't seem like a PHD study is needed to see why this is wrong, but these are the same guys that make up rostering rules, and leave rules, and when to send warning letter rules.
Now some cynics may think these people know fecking nothing, but believe me, they know **** all.
To have a modern fleet of widebodied aircraft, that fly all over the world, and still offer relatively quick commands, and still not be able to hire pilots (and this includes those that are willing to buy jobs elsewhere!) takes some doing. TICH can complain all he likes about what is written, but he and all those other office dwellers are fully responsible for the mess they have created. Next time they complain, perhaps we should remind them that if they don't like it they can leave.
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Banana and Potato are 2 airlines, I'll leave it for you to ask your cabin crew!
Yes only new guys get paid more, 15% more!
Cash is the only answer to ballooning cost of living Dubai inflation, rotten lifestyle with 6-7 days off, crazy hours up to 127hrs in a month, insane punitive culture from chief pilot sick calls to using leave in lieu of health benefits to clinic appointments fines and now super low levels of experience!!! Commercial license with only turboprop history?! Whaaat!!
Yes only new guys get paid more, 15% more!
Cash is the only answer to ballooning cost of living Dubai inflation, rotten lifestyle with 6-7 days off, crazy hours up to 127hrs in a month, insane punitive culture from chief pilot sick calls to using leave in lieu of health benefits to clinic appointments fines and now super low levels of experience!!! Commercial license with only turboprop history?! Whaaat!!
Went to the roadshow out of curiosity this week but won't be applying. Evidence here tends to contradict their claim that they only do 85hrs p/m to a max of 900 per year!
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They do a pretty good job at selling the dream. Have kept an eye on these forums for the last year or so to get a more realistic view of the conditions over there. Out of interest what kind of annual hours are guys hitting with and without the bunk time?
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Joined over 2 years ago now. Done 1638 hours on the 777 with no Sick Leave. Thats 819 anually. 85-90 per month is correct, have done 100+ maybe twice. 777 RH
@The Foss: You really take these guys seriously on Pprune? They are bitter, hateful, and will never be happy. Old skippers who still have the military stick in their arse (yes some of them introduce themselves as Colonel/Seargent, Captain bladibla.
Problem in EK for me: Colleagues who act like the ones on these forums
@The Foss: You really take these guys seriously on Pprune? They are bitter, hateful, and will never be happy. Old skippers who still have the military stick in their arse (yes some of them introduce themselves as Colonel/Seargent, Captain bladibla.
Problem in EK for me: Colleagues who act like the ones on these forums
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I can't believe there's people suggesting cash won't help - we are about 50% behind inflation since I joined. They need to give us a serious pay increase to help retain pilots and attract more - that is what will help the rosters.
No wonder the likes of AAR, JA and HD regurgitate nonsense like 'you don't want a pay rise' to us.
Alan
No wonder the likes of AAR, JA and HD regurgitate nonsense like 'you don't want a pay rise' to us.
Alan
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Everyone can be bought, the only variable is the price, and not necessarily money. An increase in the pay will stop the mercenaries from leaving. That will in turn stop a few of their friends from leaving and so on. If they offered you a 4 weeks on/2 weeks off lifestyle, and you stayed, you have just been bought
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@ The Foss, we are doing 900 hours a year without bunk time. Some people are well over 1,000 hours block time, over multiple time zones. The rosters are literally killing people.
In answer to the other posters, I stay because I'm on the big bus and the lifestyle is slightly less terrible. If I was on the 777 I would have gone to a European low cost a couple of years ago. I did my time on the 330 and know what the rosters can be like. Also, I've been here over 14 years and am 50+. For my personal circumstances it is worth sticking it out for the few years I have left and then retiring completely. Everybody has different reasons for staying, or (increasingly) going.
In answer to the other posters, I stay because I'm on the big bus and the lifestyle is slightly less terrible. If I was on the 777 I would have gone to a European low cost a couple of years ago. I did my time on the 330 and know what the rosters can be like. Also, I've been here over 14 years and am 50+. For my personal circumstances it is worth sticking it out for the few years I have left and then retiring completely. Everybody has different reasons for staying, or (increasingly) going.
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Alan, I agree cash could be better and is falling behind rapidly, but its not the main reason people are leaving. More cash and a few will stay, better lifestyle with family time off and regular sleep patterns and many will stay.
And 777200LR, of course we can be bought one way or another....thats how we came here in the first place.
And 777200LR, of course we can be bought one way or another....thats how we came here in the first place.
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Out of interest what kind of annual hours are guys hitting with and without the bunk time?
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Don
I'm normally in agreement with most of your posts but in fairness to HD, he's inherited a shambolic department left over from Mr Weasal's 10 years in power. I say 'in power' but the truth is nothing more than a powerful title he held as a filter to keep the EVP happy and the troops under control. A nice boost for an already generous BA pension while he slowly stuffed his fellow pilots. If his reputation in BA wasn't good, it certainly wasn't going to improve in a non unionised ME outfit, was it?
I'm in no way defending the current incumbent but there are signs of improvements, slowly I accept. But then again, you've been here long enough to how how the politics work here and change, for the workforce at least, is hardly sprightly. Charging into AAR office, all guns blazing demanding change to keep pilots from leaving isn't going to work. We all know that. Loss of face culturally, both within this organisation and at a National level should never be underestimated. HD is having to deal with the momentum of previous mis management and the fallout that created.
He and JA have a difficult job but I'd rather them at the helm than a few others I could think of. Just my personal thoughts anyway.
Harry
I'm normally in agreement with most of your posts but in fairness to HD, he's inherited a shambolic department left over from Mr Weasal's 10 years in power. I say 'in power' but the truth is nothing more than a powerful title he held as a filter to keep the EVP happy and the troops under control. A nice boost for an already generous BA pension while he slowly stuffed his fellow pilots. If his reputation in BA wasn't good, it certainly wasn't going to improve in a non unionised ME outfit, was it?
I'm in no way defending the current incumbent but there are signs of improvements, slowly I accept. But then again, you've been here long enough to how how the politics work here and change, for the workforce at least, is hardly sprightly. Charging into AAR office, all guns blazing demanding change to keep pilots from leaving isn't going to work. We all know that. Loss of face culturally, both within this organisation and at a National level should never be underestimated. HD is having to deal with the momentum of previous mis management and the fallout that created.
He and JA have a difficult job but I'd rather them at the helm than a few others I could think of. Just my personal thoughts anyway.
Harry