Has EK been the worst decision ever?
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Children stop comparing, that's the whole point, it's a moot point. All I was stating is the money at EK . Trader , I was referring to TRL/ TRE plus flying pay plus 12% plus appointment pay .
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What's the point of EK dirhams if you're dead tired earning it and on death's door by the time you've left EK? I'm taking a major pay cut leaving here but am ready for a huge quality of life improvement on MY terms.
The EK recruiting site shows a year 1 captain salary after 85hrs as $11601, and a year 1 FO at $8186. Year 1 Capt is step 14 (I think that's right). Max step is step 39.
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You are quite a bit off the mark for various reasons but not here to give free ads for EK as to why.
So moving on.
As many have said the money at moment not issue. Yes it's an issue but we need our health to spend it.
No one can sustain these rosters over a period without actively seeking an out. They are brutal, I say again to all considering joining- they are brutal on the body and mind. Try getting a 9-5er or your missus or an LCC guy or US Major guy or whoever to stay awake through the night - 11 out of 30 and have 8 days off. Then do that month in month out for say 10 months a year for four years. That is our life on the 777. Anyone here - is purely doing it for their family. It is getting harder as you age.
The Co. doesn't care in the slightest. The comm style is the same - directives with arrogance, an occasional soft skill 'optic' about a 'lively' Fleet Forum or an open 'walk in' with fleet at 7am on a wed. Who the f%#* will get up at 5:30 on min day off to do that or go in at end of trip - bad decision, too angry.
The real problem EK now have is that that the high attrition will be a constant over the months and years ahead. Not all will resign this year because of individual 'holding' reasons (kids finishing scool, drawn out recruitment prosesses in Asia, upgrade coming etc) BUT most are creating exit plans or currently acting on them.
There is nothing they are willing to do outside the box. No balls, no bravery, no realistic calling of a crisis meeting.
It's just "let's keep going and see how far it goes."
As to CM?
Pfft. If you're that good and can't see what's coming....well you're just not that good.
You better turn up soon son.
You are quite a bit off the mark for various reasons but not here to give free ads for EK as to why.
So moving on.
As many have said the money at moment not issue. Yes it's an issue but we need our health to spend it.
No one can sustain these rosters over a period without actively seeking an out. They are brutal, I say again to all considering joining- they are brutal on the body and mind. Try getting a 9-5er or your missus or an LCC guy or US Major guy or whoever to stay awake through the night - 11 out of 30 and have 8 days off. Then do that month in month out for say 10 months a year for four years. That is our life on the 777. Anyone here - is purely doing it for their family. It is getting harder as you age.
The Co. doesn't care in the slightest. The comm style is the same - directives with arrogance, an occasional soft skill 'optic' about a 'lively' Fleet Forum or an open 'walk in' with fleet at 7am on a wed. Who the f%#* will get up at 5:30 on min day off to do that or go in at end of trip - bad decision, too angry.
The real problem EK now have is that that the high attrition will be a constant over the months and years ahead. Not all will resign this year because of individual 'holding' reasons (kids finishing scool, drawn out recruitment prosesses in Asia, upgrade coming etc) BUT most are creating exit plans or currently acting on them.
There is nothing they are willing to do outside the box. No balls, no bravery, no realistic calling of a crisis meeting.
It's just "let's keep going and see how far it goes."
As to CM?
Pfft. If you're that good and can't see what's coming....well you're just not that good.
You better turn up soon son.
Last edited by fliion; 4th Mar 2017 at 18:10.
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Seems like the organisations described in this guys article could well include EK:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/has-s...raham-hamilton
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/has-s...raham-hamilton
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Congratulations Buford on your new job! You'll love Delta. The difference between EK and Delta is night and day. You won't believe it there is that much of a disconnect.
We have a 9 month captain based in NY and a 17 month captain in ATL. You'll upgrade in no time and the bottom captain pay is $240,000 a year without even trying so your paycut you alluded to won't be for long. Besides you can't compare a B-777 International widebody captain to a B-717 domestic FO.
You are in the midst of perfect timing. Emirates is sinking fast and with Trump in office hopefully he'll put a stop to the Middle East Airlines unchecked expansion into the US. Delta is on the rise. I will probably get a $60,000 check for our retro and profit share this month and with retirements and the fleet renewal the upside is boundless.
You will be about the 7th Emirates pilot to join in the last 6 months. Hopefully there will be more because your only regret about leaving EK is that you didn't do it earlier. You will feel so much better only working 75-80 hours a month and the latest I landed last year was 12:30am. Bring your sunglasses because we do a lot of daylight flying. That might be hard to get use to and what will not be hard to get used to is no one looking over your shoulder and no one questioning you or putting you down.
Welcome to the Family. You'll love it not just because it's Delta but it's not Emirates.
We have a 9 month captain based in NY and a 17 month captain in ATL. You'll upgrade in no time and the bottom captain pay is $240,000 a year without even trying so your paycut you alluded to won't be for long. Besides you can't compare a B-777 International widebody captain to a B-717 domestic FO.
You are in the midst of perfect timing. Emirates is sinking fast and with Trump in office hopefully he'll put a stop to the Middle East Airlines unchecked expansion into the US. Delta is on the rise. I will probably get a $60,000 check for our retro and profit share this month and with retirements and the fleet renewal the upside is boundless.
You will be about the 7th Emirates pilot to join in the last 6 months. Hopefully there will be more because your only regret about leaving EK is that you didn't do it earlier. You will feel so much better only working 75-80 hours a month and the latest I landed last year was 12:30am. Bring your sunglasses because we do a lot of daylight flying. That might be hard to get use to and what will not be hard to get used to is no one looking over your shoulder and no one questioning you or putting you down.
Welcome to the Family. You'll love it not just because it's Delta but it's not Emirates.
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NS
Sounds great and in all sincerity, glad it's working out for you.
I Just hope for your sake that Delta ups it game onboard as the service was nothing short of appalling last time I had the 'pleasure' of flying with you. And that was First Class, from LA to Tampa. Night flight on 737 with crappy old business class seats that had 36-38" legroom and not much recline. All I got was a luke warm, institutional blend coffee from the 70yr old grandmother who spent most of the night behind a curtain. She looked closer to death than retirement by the time we landed.
So bad was the experience that I can honestly say I'd would never, ever repeat it with that Airline. Oh, and got chatting to a positioning F/O who said the commute was killing him. Didn't go into details but wasn't as enthusiastic as you.
Still, that was 2 years ago so maybe things have changed....
Harry
Sounds great and in all sincerity, glad it's working out for you.
I Just hope for your sake that Delta ups it game onboard as the service was nothing short of appalling last time I had the 'pleasure' of flying with you. And that was First Class, from LA to Tampa. Night flight on 737 with crappy old business class seats that had 36-38" legroom and not much recline. All I got was a luke warm, institutional blend coffee from the 70yr old grandmother who spent most of the night behind a curtain. She looked closer to death than retirement by the time we landed.
So bad was the experience that I can honestly say I'd would never, ever repeat it with that Airline. Oh, and got chatting to a positioning F/O who said the commute was killing him. Didn't go into details but wasn't as enthusiastic as you.
Still, that was 2 years ago so maybe things have changed....
Harry
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At the end of the day Delta appears to be looking after is employees better than EK does and it does so with a far inferior product as well, which is even more admirable. If Delta is profitable and appears to be delivering its promises to its employees, then they must be doing something right.
We can debate seat pitch and the age of cabin crew until the cows come home but lets get the priorities right. Delta is comfortably making money and it seems to be making an effort at least to keep its employees on side at least. EK gave up on keeping its employees happy years ago.
With the paper thin yields at present along with over capacity in the industry, if my employer was in the black and making an effort to keep its employees happy, then the seat pitch they offer or the number of grey strands that your average cabin crew member sports, pales into insignificance. I have not met one expat here in the Gulf who complained about his/her transcon commute to or from work.
I have had the privilege of travelling long haul in F on other airlines whilst being an EK employee and the attention to detail elsewhere often leaves us at EK standing. Take a carrier that motivates its employees and who are encouraged to 'go off script' to bring that smile to the customer. That is something we rarely see at EK.
We can debate seat pitch and the age of cabin crew until the cows come home but lets get the priorities right. Delta is comfortably making money and it seems to be making an effort at least to keep its employees on side at least. EK gave up on keeping its employees happy years ago.
With the paper thin yields at present along with over capacity in the industry, if my employer was in the black and making an effort to keep its employees happy, then the seat pitch they offer or the number of grey strands that your average cabin crew member sports, pales into insignificance. I have not met one expat here in the Gulf who complained about his/her transcon commute to or from work.
I have had the privilege of travelling long haul in F on other airlines whilst being an EK employee and the attention to detail elsewhere often leaves us at EK standing. Take a carrier that motivates its employees and who are encouraged to 'go off script' to bring that smile to the customer. That is something we rarely see at EK.
Last edited by Emma Royds; 7th Mar 2017 at 19:58.
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You're comparing apples and oranges Harry. Yes Emirates service in the back is way better than Deltas but Delta's pilot pay and contract is leaps and bounds better than EK by a factor of 10. You are a pilot aren't you?
Delta made almost $6 Billion with its high wages and labor costs. Emirates will be lucky to make a Billion even with its slave labor force.
I don't commute and I can't imagine in your example a FO doing a transcontinental commute. I also can't imagine what's killing him. Is it the 80 hours a month he's flying or the 13 days he has off a month on reserve? What's his gripe? He's going to get at least an extra $50,000 this month to go along with his Industry leading pay.
Are you really comparing Delta to Emirates? How many pilots are applying to,Emirates vs how many are leaving EK to go to Big D?
Delta made almost $6 Billion with its high wages and labor costs. Emirates will be lucky to make a Billion even with its slave labor force.
I don't commute and I can't imagine in your example a FO doing a transcontinental commute. I also can't imagine what's killing him. Is it the 80 hours a month he's flying or the 13 days he has off a month on reserve? What's his gripe? He's going to get at least an extra $50,000 this month to go along with his Industry leading pay.
Are you really comparing Delta to Emirates? How many pilots are applying to,Emirates vs how many are leaving EK to go to Big D?
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Is that the same Big D that stole all the pensions from their pilot force, back in the day?
With 6 million profit, wouldn't it be a good move for the carrier to recompense their pilots with at least some of their lost pensions. I have spoken to guys who had more than $12,000 per month, reduced to $1,200 per month pension. It means that at the age of 80, yes 80, they are still instructing in the sim.
I don't know which is worse, a company that is pretty much wiping itself and its employees in the now or when they retire....
They are both as bad as each other.
With 6 million profit, wouldn't it be a good move for the carrier to recompense their pilots with at least some of their lost pensions. I have spoken to guys who had more than $12,000 per month, reduced to $1,200 per month pension. It means that at the age of 80, yes 80, they are still instructing in the sim.
I don't know which is worse, a company that is pretty much wiping itself and its employees in the now or when they retire....
They are both as bad as each other.
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Harry is a bit jaded. He's proved it enough.
He would rather have better service on his ALT ticket than have an airline treat him like a human being for the other 364 days of the year.
He has worked for a long list of sh*tty companies so he is a bit jealous when you throw in the name of the most respected airline to work for.
Whatsa matter princess Harry? No champaign on Delta? No hot towel? No shower?
Uplink:
Delta wasn't the only airline to do that. I'm not sure if you were paying attention but those were pretty troubled times... actually unprecedented in the aviation industry considering its young age (theoretically speaking). The only thing that doesn't change is that things change. Emirates "used" to be good.
He would rather have better service on his ALT ticket than have an airline treat him like a human being for the other 364 days of the year.
He has worked for a long list of sh*tty companies so he is a bit jealous when you throw in the name of the most respected airline to work for.
Whatsa matter princess Harry? No champaign on Delta? No hot towel? No shower?
Uplink:
Delta wasn't the only airline to do that. I'm not sure if you were paying attention but those were pretty troubled times... actually unprecedented in the aviation industry considering its young age (theoretically speaking). The only thing that doesn't change is that things change. Emirates "used" to be good.
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Uplink, the active Delta pilots voted to get rid of their pensions. This was a dumb idea but pilots being pilots they also screwed the retirees as they lost their pension and their medical.
I find it hard to believe that a retiree is only making $1,200 a month. It probably is more along the lines of $4,000 a month. Criminal for sure but it's not like he is starving unless he made some bad life choices, like joining Emirates for example.
Harry is probably one of the very few pilots who would rather slave for EK than work for a respectable Airline. There still are some Airlines worth having a career with. Emirates is not one of them, not by a long shot.
I find it hard to believe that a retiree is only making $1,200 a month. It probably is more along the lines of $4,000 a month. Criminal for sure but it's not like he is starving unless he made some bad life choices, like joining Emirates for example.
Harry is probably one of the very few pilots who would rather slave for EK than work for a respectable Airline. There still are some Airlines worth having a career with. Emirates is not one of them, not by a long shot.
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Pilots arguing (over something trivial) on an online forum ... handbags away boys 
I do often wonder what passengers would think if they were to read some of these threads ... but then again if they knew everything that happened "behind the scenes" in this business very few of them would set foot on an aircraft again
I do often wonder what passengers would think if they were to read some of these threads ... but then again if they knew everything that happened "behind the scenes" in this business very few of them would set foot on an aircraft again
"I find it hard to believe that a retiree is only making $1,200 a month. It probably is more along the lines of $4,000 a month."
Neptune Spear,
You might want to do quite a bit more serious homework on that subject before you speak with such authority. Some guys are making $ZERO per month from the PBGC after 30+ years of loyal service to Widget Wonderland (and ALPA) due to the termination of the defined benefit pension plan. Know anything about the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp ?
Well, we do.
Neptune Spear,
You might want to do quite a bit more serious homework on that subject before you speak with such authority. Some guys are making $ZERO per month from the PBGC after 30+ years of loyal service to Widget Wonderland (and ALPA) due to the termination of the defined benefit pension plan. Know anything about the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp ?
Well, we do.
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Neptune S,
I am happy you have landed a new job and like it. I think it is bad karma to wave around how much money you make on and on. Long before you showed up, this industry paid well. It turned around and went south in a heart beat. Pilots gave up work rules, pay and pensions with a knife at their throats. Enjoy the day but watch out for tomorrow. In 1988 I could have never imagined I would be where I am today. Be careful out there and fly safe.
I am happy you have landed a new job and like it. I think it is bad karma to wave around how much money you make on and on. Long before you showed up, this industry paid well. It turned around and went south in a heart beat. Pilots gave up work rules, pay and pensions with a knife at their throats. Enjoy the day but watch out for tomorrow. In 1988 I could have never imagined I would be where I am today. Be careful out there and fly safe.
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You're comparing apples and oranges Harry.
No, he's comparing filet mignon to a steaming pile of sh$t. Yet, somehow, he manages to try and defend the steaming pile.
The only people not actively trying to leave Ek at the moment are those who can't. Says it all.
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It means that at the age of 80, yes 80, they are still instructing in the sim.
If a current EK pilot works 15+ years at EK and retires at 60-65 having worked under the present work practices they will miss out on turning 80 by about a decade and a half!