Has EK been the worst decision ever?
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As far as being done with aviation, I think for the majority of us, that happens after 15-20 years in the field. EK, American, British airways, whatever.. makes no difference. The burn out happens.
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I do not regret coming to EK. My viewpoint may not rest comfortably with some colleagues but as an expat, I view myself as a flying mercenary. I decided to move here primarily for financial gain and to get a more modern type in my logbook at the expense of living in a modern and democratic country at home. Both of my objectives have been met and should I end up in the office tomorrow for any reason and be shown the door, it would be an inconvenience but nothing more. I never viewed EK as a career since I am only as good as my last landing and the company can choose to dismiss me for any reason they choose, with little recourse from me to reverse the outcome. I am however far better off than I would be in any legacy carrier at home but the balance between risk and reward could be tipped at any time. This is a risk and one I am happy to take.
I take pride in what I do and how I am presented but I do this out of my own self professionalism and the logo on the hat and the colours on the tail are unimportant to me, providing I stand to gain what I had set out to achieve by accepting employment with the airline/contract agency.
A6EchoEchoUniform - I was that same young aviator that you have described when I was in my early twenties and I had my sights on moving abroad and I had the chance to taste ex-pat life prior to joining EK and have no regrets in becoming a 'flying mercenary' early on in my flying days. I am not for one minute defending EK and never would as I have no emotional connection to them or to any previous employer I have worked for whilst I have been a expat. I would say that no matter what you say will not change him, so allow him to join if he wants but make sure that he has a goal or goals in place with a exit strategy in place prior to joining, which is vital for any expat. It could be saving to buy a property at home or getting time on type. I recall working in another Arab country and leaving on a day off and resigning after I had left the country, since it was in my own interests and safety to leave suddenly and whilst my exit was not very dignified, it is indicative of what I view as the status quo between the ex-pat and their employer. It can be a cold and heartless relationship with both being willing to dispose of the other at any moment. Make sure your friend is aware of this from the outset!
I take pride in what I do and how I am presented but I do this out of my own self professionalism and the logo on the hat and the colours on the tail are unimportant to me, providing I stand to gain what I had set out to achieve by accepting employment with the airline/contract agency.
A6EchoEchoUniform - I was that same young aviator that you have described when I was in my early twenties and I had my sights on moving abroad and I had the chance to taste ex-pat life prior to joining EK and have no regrets in becoming a 'flying mercenary' early on in my flying days. I am not for one minute defending EK and never would as I have no emotional connection to them or to any previous employer I have worked for whilst I have been a expat. I would say that no matter what you say will not change him, so allow him to join if he wants but make sure that he has a goal or goals in place with a exit strategy in place prior to joining, which is vital for any expat. It could be saving to buy a property at home or getting time on type. I recall working in another Arab country and leaving on a day off and resigning after I had left the country, since it was in my own interests and safety to leave suddenly and whilst my exit was not very dignified, it is indicative of what I view as the status quo between the ex-pat and their employer. It can be a cold and heartless relationship with both being willing to dispose of the other at any moment. Make sure your friend is aware of this from the outset!
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Good thread People.....! No disrespect but alot of the younger new generation pilots both currently here and joining EK in the near future will not understand how we all feel, maybe they will read back on this in 10 years time and get it. Only time will tell and teach the many victims that are lined up.......!
For me (just my humble opinion) EK is not an airline its a Cult which brain washes some of the best of us......! Remember that line when we all joined "Perception of the brand"...?
I for one refuse to tolerate their unreal and arrogant behavior towards my chosen career, I refuse to sit there and watch them destroy a great job, you all know they are chipping away until enough is enough, so why not leave like I did.
This New Generation of Hypocrites and Parasites within the EK Bouncy Wagon that do nothing until they fall off the edge....... Really...?
So getting back on topic, EK were turning me off the job and whole direction they were taking their Cult Perception and it was not the way I vision myself enjoying a once great job......! Not in the OMA but its the best command decision for any sound minded human to make.... After all its their game and they will make you pay and play one way or another......!
But if you TOLERATE these Terms and Conditions, what next..? Come on, Really......!
Keep Tomorrow Hello Recovery.....!
Fly Safely my Fellow Desdi Zoombie's..........!
For me (just my humble opinion) EK is not an airline its a Cult which brain washes some of the best of us......! Remember that line when we all joined "Perception of the brand"...?
I for one refuse to tolerate their unreal and arrogant behavior towards my chosen career, I refuse to sit there and watch them destroy a great job, you all know they are chipping away until enough is enough, so why not leave like I did.
This New Generation of Hypocrites and Parasites within the EK Bouncy Wagon that do nothing until they fall off the edge....... Really...?
So getting back on topic, EK were turning me off the job and whole direction they were taking their Cult Perception and it was not the way I vision myself enjoying a once great job......! Not in the OMA but its the best command decision for any sound minded human to make.... After all its their game and they will make you pay and play one way or another......!
But if you TOLERATE these Terms and Conditions, what next..? Come on, Really......!
Keep Tomorrow Hello Recovery.....!
Fly Safely my Fellow Desdi Zoombie's..........!
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Well said boys! I recently left after 10 years there and like many of you already mentioned; denial. It's denial that keeps us believing that things will improve and how could it possibly get worse?! As an optimist, it took me longer than it should have to resign, maybe the love for flying or the hard work we all put in to reach the stage we're at in our career, I convinced myself I could keep going and how could I possibly give all this up?!
I do hope they are training the cabin crew hard during their 'how to fly for dummies' course; I don't see how else they possibly will crew the 777s with the new destinations coming.
Safe flying to all
I do hope they are training the cabin crew hard during their 'how to fly for dummies' course; I don't see how else they possibly will crew the 777s with the new destinations coming.
Safe flying to all
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Wow Henrydog I hate you...
The truth really hurts! Thank you for helping me see the light! We get to an age where we are just too scared of the big change..
Another EK River Rat!
The truth really hurts! Thank you for helping me see the light! We get to an age where we are just too scared of the big change..
Another EK River Rat!
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If he has the experience, he would probably be a lot better off flying for Atlas and living in DXB. Atlas has a lot of pilots living overseas, and is the reason some of them don't want to leave for AA/UAL/DAL.
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Its ok boys.....
I got it all sorted. I only need to keep flying until my forex sca.... uh, investment accounts start to payout big.
Easy street here I come.
Not much longer now.
J.
I got it all sorted. I only need to keep flying until my forex sca.... uh, investment accounts start to payout big.
Easy street here I come.
Not much longer now.
J.
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It happens when...you wake up...
"It happens when life calls to us...
after we have done what we were supposed to do,
become who we thought we were supposed to be,
lived as we thought we were supposed to live,
then the safety and comfort and compromise get to us...
and a stirring of restlessness and revolution
sends us off in search of greater adventures and meaning." Anon.
Just saying like...
after we have done what we were supposed to do,
become who we thought we were supposed to be,
lived as we thought we were supposed to live,
then the safety and comfort and compromise get to us...
and a stirring of restlessness and revolution
sends us off in search of greater adventures and meaning." Anon.
Just saying like...
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I pointed out this thread to the individual who I'm speaking to. His reply is "well, I really have no choice. The US carriers won't take me without a degree."
Not sure that I agree, I think the US carriers will soon be desperate enough to hire the experience that they want vs education.
Honestly I have no idea whether Emirates hires most people with their degrees or not. Any insight? I'm thinking that most of us have a college education?
Not sure that I agree, I think the US carriers will soon be desperate enough to hire the experience that they want vs education.
Honestly I have no idea whether Emirates hires most people with their degrees or not. Any insight? I'm thinking that most of us have a college education?
Just a few here and there without a degree if mom or dad is a captain at that airline
99.7% percent have college degree( United, Delta , American, UPS and FedEx statistics by ALPA and Teamsters) and the regionals have 15000 pilots... great pilot factory
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Thank you, ee Cummings.
it's not EK unfortunately.
EK it's not out of this world,
and in this world the pilot job is getting worse every day everywhere.
having said that, it seems to me that the EK management just hates us, and tries to make our life more miserable every day.
with a certain amount of success it must be said.
like the Outlaw says, young inexperienced pilots, but also desperate pilots from bankrupting airlines will always come, regardless of the amount of s#!t they read on these pages. and that's simply because EK is still better than their present condition.
and EK knows it. that's why they seem to be illogically oblivious to the "retention issue".
this is from someone who is not a young pilot, belongs to the second category, hates this job, but still needs it.
my advice? forget EK, forget flying, look for a different job....
pilots are going to disappear sooner than we think anyway.
Regards,
Kippa
EK it's not out of this world,
and in this world the pilot job is getting worse every day everywhere.
having said that, it seems to me that the EK management just hates us, and tries to make our life more miserable every day.
with a certain amount of success it must be said.
like the Outlaw says, young inexperienced pilots, but also desperate pilots from bankrupting airlines will always come, regardless of the amount of s#!t they read on these pages. and that's simply because EK is still better than their present condition.
and EK knows it. that's why they seem to be illogically oblivious to the "retention issue".
this is from someone who is not a young pilot, belongs to the second category, hates this job, but still needs it.
my advice? forget EK, forget flying, look for a different job....
pilots are going to disappear sooner than we think anyway.
Regards,
Kippa
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If I may replay, only because I'm killing time and don't have much else to do whilst I sip my coffee.
First, I don't work for EK, nor ever have. I am an outsider to the conversation in that regard. Having said that, outside of my own home country, I have worked as a pilot in the ME as well as India, Thailand, and Europe. I had a chance to join EK 15 years ago and many of my buddies at the time did join EK or QR, EK, WY of GF. Those who used a ME carrier as a stepping stone have no regrets for leaving. But their ability to sever the umbilical to their glorified aviator positions seriously cost them overall. IOW, many are still first officers for a US carrier. I became a captain stateside 9 years ago. However, despite the disappointment in their long crawl to the left seat Stateside, none of them regret leaving the ME, not one! All generally tell me their worst day as a FO at a US carrier is better than their best day as a captain at for a ME airline. So the consensus seems pretty obvious there. What isn't as obvious is their willingness to admit that they waited too long to leave. And therein lies the trick, knowing when to leave. Obviously earlier is better than later but how many truly pull the cord early enough. I'm betting the data would point to most waiting too long for whatever reason (fulfilling their bond requirement, getting use to life in DXB or wherever, hoping things will get better at said ME airline... which, as we all know, it never really does).
I did my time in the ME to better my career experiences and prospects for a more rounded overall resume. I have no regrets and I am certain it aided my getting hired by a US Legacy carrier. But I knew when to get out. I refused to let myself get entrenched over there and I knew life, for me anyway, was about what I did outside the job, not what I did as an aviator. I left a very high paying job in the ME to return to my US regional airline job at the time in order to get back into the hiring pipeline of the US legacy carrier that I ultimately ended up flying for. In fact, that job paid so well that I recall a couple of EK captains at the time offering to trade places with me. IOW, it paid significantly more than a EK captain and still I left. I wanted to focus on a career that would give me plenty of time off to pursue my interests and passions outside of work. There are very few aviation jobs that allow this. A US Legacy carrier is one, a month-on/off rotation with a bizjet entity or a contract gig is another. For the most part, career positions with ME carriers and most Asian carriers will just not afford you the time needed to truly pursue the airline pilot lifestyle, which to me always meant plenty of time off. Sure we all love to fly jets. After nearly 27 years as a commercial pilot, I still get a kick at landing in challenging conditions or taking off from some new place. But let's all face it, after the first 90 days on a new type, it's just a job. And those who define themselves by the job itself often find themselves feeling unfulfilled.
I think it's great you're mentoring a kid. I was mentored and I keep in touch with my mentor to this day, a retired B747 captain for a US Legacy who is in his 80s now. I try to pay it forward by mentoring others who show an interest.
The problem with this kid's scenario, in terms of his expectations, is that by the time he meets EK's qualification, likely by his mid to late 20s after college and building time, he'll also be qualified to work for a US carrier. If he squanders that opportunity due to the ME lure of shiny new jets, he will pay for this dearly when he finally does return to the US. I see this quite often at my airline. I work with FOs who are a few years older than me and who have this vast experience database acquired BEFORE they joined our airline. However, because they put off returning to the US they are thousands and thousands of numbers junior to me. I feel for them, as they will never make WB captain at our airline, but we both know their predicament is due to the fact that they got hired so late in life. We all make choices.
By contrast, a colleague of mine got hired by our US Legacy carrier ULTRA-early, compared to everyone else, at age 23. He will spend the last 10 years of his career at #1, and will likely retire with around $10 million (USD) in his retirement plan due to the power of compound interest. I was hired in my mid-30s, I'll be lucky to crack $3-4 million in retirement, and I have to really save diligently to reach that number. Respectable, yes, but I'll never make it beyond the most senior 200 pilots on the list (we have over 13,000 so still not too bad) and I will spend the last 5 years of my career staring up the tailpipe of nearly 1,000 pilots in front of me as they march towards age 65 also. So while I will be senior towards the end of my career, I will never really spend too much time in that coveted position because of all the pilots in front of me. The point here being age and it's relative relation to seniority is the single most important driver in terms of a successful career measurement after airline brand. And we all know the brand we choose is a total crapshoot. IOW, you choose the carrier you wish to spend your career with; yet from there all you can do is hope they are still around when you reach retirement age.
His best use of career energy will be spent pursuing a US Legacy carrier position either through the more traditional (these days anyway) route of commercial aviation climbing or through the military. I'd only go to a ME or overseas carrier IF the plan is to use said carrier as a very short-stint stepping stone (very short) and if all other hiring options in the US were presently off the table at time of my ME carrier applicaiton. Else he might find himself bitter and pulling gear for someone half his age in his home country when he's 45.
TIFWIW.
First, I don't work for EK, nor ever have. I am an outsider to the conversation in that regard. Having said that, outside of my own home country, I have worked as a pilot in the ME as well as India, Thailand, and Europe. I had a chance to join EK 15 years ago and many of my buddies at the time did join EK or QR, EK, WY of GF. Those who used a ME carrier as a stepping stone have no regrets for leaving. But their ability to sever the umbilical to their glorified aviator positions seriously cost them overall. IOW, many are still first officers for a US carrier. I became a captain stateside 9 years ago. However, despite the disappointment in their long crawl to the left seat Stateside, none of them regret leaving the ME, not one! All generally tell me their worst day as a FO at a US carrier is better than their best day as a captain at for a ME airline. So the consensus seems pretty obvious there. What isn't as obvious is their willingness to admit that they waited too long to leave. And therein lies the trick, knowing when to leave. Obviously earlier is better than later but how many truly pull the cord early enough. I'm betting the data would point to most waiting too long for whatever reason (fulfilling their bond requirement, getting use to life in DXB or wherever, hoping things will get better at said ME airline... which, as we all know, it never really does).
I did my time in the ME to better my career experiences and prospects for a more rounded overall resume. I have no regrets and I am certain it aided my getting hired by a US Legacy carrier. But I knew when to get out. I refused to let myself get entrenched over there and I knew life, for me anyway, was about what I did outside the job, not what I did as an aviator. I left a very high paying job in the ME to return to my US regional airline job at the time in order to get back into the hiring pipeline of the US legacy carrier that I ultimately ended up flying for. In fact, that job paid so well that I recall a couple of EK captains at the time offering to trade places with me. IOW, it paid significantly more than a EK captain and still I left. I wanted to focus on a career that would give me plenty of time off to pursue my interests and passions outside of work. There are very few aviation jobs that allow this. A US Legacy carrier is one, a month-on/off rotation with a bizjet entity or a contract gig is another. For the most part, career positions with ME carriers and most Asian carriers will just not afford you the time needed to truly pursue the airline pilot lifestyle, which to me always meant plenty of time off. Sure we all love to fly jets. After nearly 27 years as a commercial pilot, I still get a kick at landing in challenging conditions or taking off from some new place. But let's all face it, after the first 90 days on a new type, it's just a job. And those who define themselves by the job itself often find themselves feeling unfulfilled.
I think it's great you're mentoring a kid. I was mentored and I keep in touch with my mentor to this day, a retired B747 captain for a US Legacy who is in his 80s now. I try to pay it forward by mentoring others who show an interest.
The problem with this kid's scenario, in terms of his expectations, is that by the time he meets EK's qualification, likely by his mid to late 20s after college and building time, he'll also be qualified to work for a US carrier. If he squanders that opportunity due to the ME lure of shiny new jets, he will pay for this dearly when he finally does return to the US. I see this quite often at my airline. I work with FOs who are a few years older than me and who have this vast experience database acquired BEFORE they joined our airline. However, because they put off returning to the US they are thousands and thousands of numbers junior to me. I feel for them, as they will never make WB captain at our airline, but we both know their predicament is due to the fact that they got hired so late in life. We all make choices.
By contrast, a colleague of mine got hired by our US Legacy carrier ULTRA-early, compared to everyone else, at age 23. He will spend the last 10 years of his career at #1, and will likely retire with around $10 million (USD) in his retirement plan due to the power of compound interest. I was hired in my mid-30s, I'll be lucky to crack $3-4 million in retirement, and I have to really save diligently to reach that number. Respectable, yes, but I'll never make it beyond the most senior 200 pilots on the list (we have over 13,000 so still not too bad) and I will spend the last 5 years of my career staring up the tailpipe of nearly 1,000 pilots in front of me as they march towards age 65 also. So while I will be senior towards the end of my career, I will never really spend too much time in that coveted position because of all the pilots in front of me. The point here being age and it's relative relation to seniority is the single most important driver in terms of a successful career measurement after airline brand. And we all know the brand we choose is a total crapshoot. IOW, you choose the carrier you wish to spend your career with; yet from there all you can do is hope they are still around when you reach retirement age.
His best use of career energy will be spent pursuing a US Legacy carrier position either through the more traditional (these days anyway) route of commercial aviation climbing or through the military. I'd only go to a ME or overseas carrier IF the plan is to use said carrier as a very short-stint stepping stone (very short) and if all other hiring options in the US were presently off the table at time of my ME carrier applicaiton. Else he might find himself bitter and pulling gear for someone half his age in his home country when he's 45.
TIFWIW.
Last edited by Geebz; 4th Feb 2017 at 23:53.
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Rule #1: Start young
Rule #2: Do not leave the country you want to live in just to career build.
Rule #3: Perservere and stay sane.
Tip #1: Vist exotic countries for holidays.
Rule #2: Do not leave the country you want to live in just to career build.
Rule #3: Perservere and stay sane.
Tip #1: Vist exotic countries for holidays.
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Rule 1) We are not all the same, some want to live abroad, some want to stay in their home country. Some love shorthaul, some longhaul, some love being home every night, some love layovers, some love Boeing, some love Airbus!! Don't judge someone elses choices just because they are different to yours, it may be possible that they are perfectly happy with those choices!! Diversity is ok!
Rule 2) Some love the Donald, some don't (sorry couldn't resist)
Rule 3) There are no rules so disregard above 😜😜😜
Rule 2) Some love the Donald, some don't (sorry couldn't resist)
Rule 3) There are no rules so disregard above 😜😜😜
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Geebz: You're talking about something entirely different. There is no doubt that working for an American Unionised Airline is the best work in the World. Unfortunately most of us can't get that work. If you can then you're clearly a fool if you don't take it.
The U.S. legacy carriers are not competitive internationally though and they have to use a lot of BS anti-competitive lobbying to try to keep the competition in check.
The U.S. legacy carriers are not competitive internationally though and they have to use a lot of BS anti-competitive lobbying to try to keep the competition in check.
There is no doubt that working for an American Unionised Airline is the best work in the World
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Geebz, if you're talking about Delta, I know someone hired there at 26 a few months before him. They will be ahead of him until retirement, so he'll be number one for about 3 or 4 years, still a great spot to be in no doubt. I also know they've hired several mid 20's pilots a shortly ahead of him but definitely not that young. He'll be a widebody capt for a long time. A lucky guy for sure.
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Anson: In the Airline world simply put over the span of a Pilot career; Salary+pension versus days in uniform is better at Unionised U.S. carriers than anywhere else.