Has EK been the worst decision ever?
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fatty
Most of the young ones are gone or are going soon. Those with just a few years left (like me) are wise just to gut it out. The 40 year old guys/gals are the ones who have a tough choice to make.
It is not all roses at UPS or any other carrier for that matter. I know a striking Eastern pilot who quit UPS in 89 or 90 time frame over an argument about carrying coffee on a night time PHL ramp. I retired from a major carrier and opted for a life change in Dubai. I was later hired by UPS in the summer of 2007 to go fly the 400 in Anchorage. I would have started in early Dec. 2007 only to be furloughed at the height of the GFC in Jan. 2009. As much as I wanted to go to UPS I stuck it out and it turned out to be the right choice, as of today. Timing is everything.
Most of the young ones are gone or are going soon. Those with just a few years left (like me) are wise just to gut it out. The 40 year old guys/gals are the ones who have a tough choice to make.
It is not all roses at UPS or any other carrier for that matter. I know a striking Eastern pilot who quit UPS in 89 or 90 time frame over an argument about carrying coffee on a night time PHL ramp. I retired from a major carrier and opted for a life change in Dubai. I was later hired by UPS in the summer of 2007 to go fly the 400 in Anchorage. I would have started in early Dec. 2007 only to be furloughed at the height of the GFC in Jan. 2009. As much as I wanted to go to UPS I stuck it out and it turned out to be the right choice, as of today. Timing is everything.
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TOGA , my point exactly. Everyone want you to believe everything is fantastic back in the states. Each to his own. I personally know 20 + US guys here with no intention of returning. I'm starting to despise going on a flt and hearing nothing but how much a Delta 777 Capt earns. I tell the guy go be a 777 Delta Capt, oh wait your only a FO and may never get to the LHS of that 777, that is usually followed by " as an FO your making 200 k +" . My response is " what are you waiting for". . No beers down route ,which is probably a good thing.
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Sorry fatty, you just sound envious. button push ignored made it pretty clear it wasn't meant to be a brag, just an idea of what's possible at the top end of the pay scale, which - obviously - isn't EK. So what?
Of course not every American pilot works at UPS, and not every US job has T&C like that. Most of the US pilots I met at EK were ex-regional guys for whom EK was a great opportunity to advance their career and make more money, in some cases a LOT more. Very few legacy mainline guys or from places like UPS, and if they were, usually just flying out a few last years for fun. Virtually all the US pilots I know of have already returned, most infamously a certain EK promotional video star. I do know one or two that are recently upgraded or close to command at EK so going to hang on for a bit longer - makes sense.
Why does it bother you to hear that Delta captains make more than you do? Don't hate on the young guys excited at the chance to go home and escape EK, just because that avenue isn't open to you.
Of course not every American pilot works at UPS, and not every US job has T&C like that. Most of the US pilots I met at EK were ex-regional guys for whom EK was a great opportunity to advance their career and make more money, in some cases a LOT more. Very few legacy mainline guys or from places like UPS, and if they were, usually just flying out a few last years for fun. Virtually all the US pilots I know of have already returned, most infamously a certain EK promotional video star. I do know one or two that are recently upgraded or close to command at EK so going to hang on for a bit longer - makes sense.
Why does it bother you to hear that Delta captains make more than you do? Don't hate on the young guys excited at the chance to go home and escape EK, just because that avenue isn't open to you.
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Again, why do you care?
Seems that it isn't the FO's who are comparing themselves to a US3 B777 captain, and I can certainly see how that would be painful for an EK skipper.
Seems that it isn't the FO's who are comparing themselves to a US3 B777 captain, and I can certainly see how that would be painful for an EK skipper.
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Fatty,
Probably they are just moaning because it becomes quite obvious how under valued our talents and skills are here. We can only measure our company's respect for us by the terms and conditions they impose on us. 98 hard hours in a 28 day month? Does that say something?
After all things considered, housing, education allowance, Foreign tax exemption etc., the best I can come up with is mediocre B737 pay. That does not include the conditions we work under. If I am working now as I was over ten years ago, 70 or so hours a month, and being compensated as I am, and having a life with days off for recovery, I would say fine. But you know that's not the case.
In addition the employees at Delta this year are splitting something along the lines of $1.3 billion for their annual profit share. No, that's not the company's profit, but rather what will be distributed for their employees. What is wrong with this company?
Probably they are just moaning because it becomes quite obvious how under valued our talents and skills are here. We can only measure our company's respect for us by the terms and conditions they impose on us. 98 hard hours in a 28 day month? Does that say something?
After all things considered, housing, education allowance, Foreign tax exemption etc., the best I can come up with is mediocre B737 pay. That does not include the conditions we work under. If I am working now as I was over ten years ago, 70 or so hours a month, and being compensated as I am, and having a life with days off for recovery, I would say fine. But you know that's not the case.
In addition the employees at Delta this year are splitting something along the lines of $1.3 billion for their annual profit share. No, that's not the company's profit, but rather what will be distributed for their employees. What is wrong with this company?
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Button
In no way would I defend EK anymore in light of the lack of response to the current crewing crisis and the amateur hour that's going on in Flt Ops
That said - where are you getting that we make less than a Cessna or Allegient pilot.
How much in net terms do you think we make?
In no way would I defend EK anymore in light of the lack of response to the current crewing crisis and the amateur hour that's going on in Flt Ops
That said - where are you getting that we make less than a Cessna or Allegient pilot.
How much in net terms do you think we make?
Button your top pay level for EK is wrong by a good margin.
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Button,
Airlinepilotcentral has bad info on EK. When you add up all the pay including housing allowances it's more like 19-20kmonth for a CA with about 5-7 years on property. If you wanted to convert that to a US style contract it would be roughly $225/hour. Not stellar but not too bad either. EK pilots also get some perks like driver to and from work, good hotels, free medical, travel benefits, etc. The area where EK comes up short in a big way is schedule. The schedules at EK are brutal. The pay is close but the work load is significantly higher.
Airlinepilotcentral has bad info on EK. When you add up all the pay including housing allowances it's more like 19-20kmonth for a CA with about 5-7 years on property. If you wanted to convert that to a US style contract it would be roughly $225/hour. Not stellar but not too bad either. EK pilots also get some perks like driver to and from work, good hotels, free medical, travel benefits, etc. The area where EK comes up short in a big way is schedule. The schedules at EK are brutal. The pay is close but the work load is significantly higher.
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Laker, free medical? Give me a break. That's a complete conflict of interest having the company provide medical insurance. It's generally a PITA getting them to pay for procedures these days, particularly for those of us with spouses & kids. Button isn't far off top pay level considering the hours we put in and the equipment we fly. There's a top out to years served and duty hours have essentially gone up over the years. Don't kid yourself. Schedules won't improve. EK is a sinking ship. As a family, we've had a 21 year history with EK; wife was a f/a from 1996, I joined in 2005 & sis-in-law was a f/a from 2007. Morale is at an all time low and conditions will not improve. Anyone hoping for things to change are sadly clinging to hope that EK will 'do the right thing'. Good luck with that...thankfully our 21 year history is coming to a close.
Last edited by Buford; 4th Mar 2017 at 04:26.
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I don't disagree that EK is a mess. I left and I'm very happy I did. I was just trying to provide a few of the positives at EK for Button. I don't remember getting a monthly medical deduction at EK. I get a monthly medical deduction at my US Airline. I agree that the coverage at EK probably leaves a lot to be desired. There are plenty of jobs out there. It's good you are moving on. I just don't understand the people who say it's a terrible job yet stay for 10-20 years.
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19-20k USD/month for "5-7 years on the property" seems a tad optimistic. Basic in the low 40k's, housing allowance 16k, flight pay maybe another 7k. So roughly 65k AED, which is less than 18k USD. Maybe more if you fly insane hours.
But button push ignore does seem to be ignoring the tax-free implications, particularly for non-US citizens who don't have to report to the IRS...
But button push ignore does seem to be ignoring the tax-free implications, particularly for non-US citizens who don't have to report to the IRS...
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What is the going rate for income tax in the US?
It's all well and good coming out with hourly rates but ultimately it's what goes into your bank account that really matters. Net pay, that's what's important, not gross! Even assuming a modest 25% in the US, that would bring the big 3's take home to a comparable level. Bear in mind the time it would take to get to those higher pay scales, and the EK salary is good.
What's not so good is the constant high hours and productivity that's being forced upon us each and every month. Combine this with the rostering patterns, report times and multitude of inane emails and FCI's to keep up with, the pay becomes somewhat secondary in importance. The balance between quality of life and income is what we strive for but that balance has been continually tipped out of our favour over the last 2-3 years, more so for those that flew the 330. In fact, the rot set in when the then incumbent DSVP changed the policy on hours. A shameful sell out by an individual with only one vested interest, his own.
Ultimately, you make a decision to stay or go but as has been alluded to, those that continue to stay and bleat have only themselves to blame.
As for Button push ignore, I think he's a wind up merchant and a fairly successful one at that! 'Saw a billboard along the I-24......'
What a load of ****e.
Harry
Buford
Must have had a few good years of profit share with all those family members......!! Seriously though, good luck in your next move. Rgds, Harry
It's all well and good coming out with hourly rates but ultimately it's what goes into your bank account that really matters. Net pay, that's what's important, not gross! Even assuming a modest 25% in the US, that would bring the big 3's take home to a comparable level. Bear in mind the time it would take to get to those higher pay scales, and the EK salary is good.
What's not so good is the constant high hours and productivity that's being forced upon us each and every month. Combine this with the rostering patterns, report times and multitude of inane emails and FCI's to keep up with, the pay becomes somewhat secondary in importance. The balance between quality of life and income is what we strive for but that balance has been continually tipped out of our favour over the last 2-3 years, more so for those that flew the 330. In fact, the rot set in when the then incumbent DSVP changed the policy on hours. A shameful sell out by an individual with only one vested interest, his own.
Ultimately, you make a decision to stay or go but as has been alluded to, those that continue to stay and bleat have only themselves to blame.
As for Button push ignore, I think he's a wind up merchant and a fairly successful one at that! 'Saw a billboard along the I-24......'
What a load of ****e.
Harry
Buford
Must have had a few good years of profit share with all those family members......!! Seriously though, good luck in your next move. Rgds, Harry
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What some are not informed about, at many of the majors there are numerous contractual means to earn a few bucks more. Those rates are basic rates. Add in per diem, add in international override pay, leave payback (easily done for flying international, not so for domestic), open time pickup, flying on day off override (when working only 12 days a month, easily done). These are all available, IF you want a money lifestyle. If you want an easier lifestyle, then do the minimum.
The big difference is, ready?, choices. What choices are available here? The only one I can think of is the, if you don't like it, blah blah. But many don't have that choice to continue elsewhere. Age issues (oldies) that need some retirement cash, nothing available in the home country or not the best to raise a family, etc, etc. and this is where they have many by the short hairs. There will always be a solid cadre of pilots here that have little choice and "have" to stay. And that's one reason they can keep our conditions so miserable.
It's not about leave here as a captain, join a legacy and instantly make $350k a year. It's about job and pay comparison for doing a third more work and close to half the pay. This place is not marketed as a Allgient, Ryan Air, Spirit, whatever low cost comes to mind. It is branded as a luxury airline with impeccable service. And who delivers that? The employees.
The big difference is, ready?, choices. What choices are available here? The only one I can think of is the, if you don't like it, blah blah. But many don't have that choice to continue elsewhere. Age issues (oldies) that need some retirement cash, nothing available in the home country or not the best to raise a family, etc, etc. and this is where they have many by the short hairs. There will always be a solid cadre of pilots here that have little choice and "have" to stay. And that's one reason they can keep our conditions so miserable.
It's not about leave here as a captain, join a legacy and instantly make $350k a year. It's about job and pay comparison for doing a third more work and close to half the pay. This place is not marketed as a Allgient, Ryan Air, Spirit, whatever low cost comes to mind. It is branded as a luxury airline with impeccable service. And who delivers that? The employees.
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FATTY
A TRE at a legacy, doing that same work on a wide body can make upwards of 130,000 AED per month. That would be with a 15% override on the hourly rate and working the equivalent of 100 hours and doing some extra work on days off. About the same work as here. Check rides, Sims, Seat filling, line training, FAA designee check rides, etc. All at an override rate.
But again, one is not going to leave this airline and step right into that job. But here, you can be a TRE at Ryan Air, come here as a DEC and soon be knighted as a TRE. See how lucky we are.
Did I forget contractual protection?
A TRE at a legacy, doing that same work on a wide body can make upwards of 130,000 AED per month. That would be with a 15% override on the hourly rate and working the equivalent of 100 hours and doing some extra work on days off. About the same work as here. Check rides, Sims, Seat filling, line training, FAA designee check rides, etc. All at an override rate.
But again, one is not going to leave this airline and step right into that job. But here, you can be a TRE at Ryan Air, come here as a DEC and soon be knighted as a TRE. See how lucky we are.
Did I forget contractual protection?