Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Pay Scales

Old 14th Oct 2016, 04:10
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,479
They are now saying it was a mistake to take inexperienced FO's. Should have raised everyone's pay , made the place attractive. They have gone the wrong way with many things. Probably the 3 ranked in the ME3. We are now getting the EY/QR rejects instead of the other way around.
fatbus is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2016, 04:34
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UAE
Posts: 159
... so what do they do instead. Raise the salary for new joiners only..... hahahahahahah
Friggin joke.

J
JAYTO is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2016, 06:03
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 447
Leave the salaries alone, thats not the problem! When your having a retention and recruitment problem, first stop the rot.

Stop the guys leaving, that solves half your recruitment problem at a stroke...Then you don't have to create a devision amongst the pilots with pay and cause more guys to feel of little value and leave.

Stop the rot and make this a place that people want to stay in and once again you will have EXPERIENCED guys wanting to join and at the current rates.

The race to the bottom only leads to one place....the bottom.

10 years ago we had plenty of time off, rested pilots, happy families and no retention or recruitment problem. Its not rocket science, treat people well they will give you their best and more. Treat them badly and the ivory towers of Costa will eventually crumble.
felixthecat is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2016, 08:00
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: DXB
Posts: 164
And the full official name of Bangkok is:

'Krungthep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahintara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Popnopparat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amonpiman Avatansathit Sakkathattiya Visnukamprasit'

tz
The Zohan is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2016, 08:19
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 857
Man, these new packages are so good I'm tempted to apply and come back.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Vote with your feet. I would say "that is the only thing they understand", but apparently even the exodus is completely beyond their comprehension.
nolimitholdem is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2016, 03:39
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the State of Perpetual Confusion
Posts: 185
Leave the salaries alone, thats not the problem! When your having a retention and recruitment problem, first stop the rot.

Stop the guys leaving, that solves half your recruitment problem at a stroke...Then you don't have to create a devision amongst the pilots with pay and cause more guys to feel of little value and leave.

Stop the rot and make this a place that people want to stay in and once again you will have EXPERIENCED guys wanting to join and at the current rates.

The race to the bottom only leads to one place....the bottom.

10 years ago we had plenty of time off, rested pilots, happy families and no retention or recruitment problem. Its not rocket science, treat people well they will give you their best and more. Treat them badly and the ivory towers of Costa will eventually crumble.
While I agree with much of your sentiment, I'm going to have to call B.S. on the last paragraph. The rot started much more than 10 years ago. There is absolutely nothing that is being done now that doesn't have its roots in past practice.

Shortly after the Gulf Air crash, hour requirements for command were increased, guys were taken off of command courses and plans were made to downgrade a number of captains. (While they did mitigate some of the knee-jerk response after impassioned entreaties to Sir Maurice (PBUH), upgrade requirements were still increased and many were removed from their upgrade courses).

The DEC debacle of 2004 (?). DEC's with zero Widebody and/or international experience were brought in at higher pay rates than the pilots who were training them.

The great "cost-neutral" pay adjustment. (Don't remember the actual year). Cost neutral meant about a 15% pay cut for me.

I could go on but I think you get the point. The common thread to all of this has the initials STC. They got "better" at it once AAR was brought in. The point is that the rot has been there for a LONG time and NO ONE should be surprised at what is going on now.
Gillegan is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2016, 05:41
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,058
Gillegan

I agree 100%. It seems to be the fate of many companies or personalities, that when blessed with a stellar rise and success, they succumb to the assumption, that this was only due to their own superior skills. That other factors might have helped, like being at the right place at the right time, having had some precious help from motivated co-warriors, mistakes from competitors (!!!) or just pure luck, is simply discarded.
This is called arrogance (definition: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions) and it makes people blind to their own mistakes. For them, any setback must be of foreign making or of a mean conspiracy.

This arrogance has taken down many companies and associations. Recently it's FIFA, Samsung and VW, where in all cases the experts talk of a rotten company culture. Look how hard it is for these companies to change, but without getting rid of the heads, it never succeeds.

For a company in the ME, with its Islamic background, it will be nearly impossible to go down that road. What history would demand, is not only the resignation of the most direct culprit at the front (AAR), which could mean a slight improvement but no change in company culture, but the departure of STC and even HHSA. The amount of employee mismanagement and wrong strategic fleet and expansion decisions can not have been missed by him, thus he is part of the arrogance that put EK on the slide.
This is, and that is my guess, not possible. Even if HHSM realises the abyss and the reason for it, he is just as much part of the local culture and unable to change it.

EK will shrink to the irrelevance of Gulf Air and most probably be replaced by Qatar, which will eventually fall in the same trap in a few years. After all they are all ME companies, led by locals.

Last edited by glofish; 15th Oct 2016 at 06:31.
glofish is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2016, 15:26
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: >FL310
Posts: 429
Back to the pay scales. Guys, you've missed the plot. We have proven that those who remain will do so at a subpar wage and will take the hourly abuse. But to attract newbies, there has to be something enticing, given the new deserved reputation of EK amongst pilots worldwide. By this I mean, those that are here, if you don't like it leave. We'll replace you with some wide eyed impressionable new pilots. To them the word loyalty is just a word that comes after laughable in the dictionary.
TangoUniform is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2016, 15:30
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In the seat
Posts: 284
This my dear colleagues, this where we change over from a career airline to a contract airline.......maybe it happened sooner, but this is a distinctive yardstick!!!
kingpost is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2016, 00:33
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: saint work
Posts: 5
Business greed

Dear colleagues, this satin business conduct has been going around in some other airlines in the gulf area as well, where junior first officers being contracted for salaries similar to the senior captains. The airline is a business and as long as people passive we will see more degradation to our profession.

They are braver than us, not for doing this, but for doing it during the start of pilots market shortage globally. Yes we became expendables, they will eat off our muscles and throw us out when the bones start to show. They will cover the lack of experience of newly appointed f/o by flying them with experienced captains, which means the captain will be underpaid, and overworked. Why? they will lower their recruitment standards for the ab initio? to compensate for the the market pilots shortage and their expansion plan.

Over my 30 years of flying, i have never seen worse job years than the past 10 years, locked up in the 2x2m cockpit(since 911 actually), no life outside, no time for family(if there is family left), and health issues started to boil(with a cheap medical insurance). I'm getting out this year to have to save whats left from my health. Health is very important, and when you do jetlags and bad sleep pattern for mor than 10 years, you asking for trouble.

Airline pilots should take a good look at their sacrifices and weigh that against the peanuts, also new comers should think twice before joining, its a trap , i totally regret choosing flying as my career, and never let any of my kids to become a pilot.
muncen is offline  

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