Captain 330/340 transfer policy
I didn't make the rules WB1900, nor do I agree with them. 334 Capts have been shafted with this 3000hr ruling for years. It was only recently exempted.
Avid you sure about that? Its only the fellas with less than 2000hrs command that are being shafted isn't it?
You are correct...non of these changes would have stopped that 777 from crashing.
Avid you sure about that? Its only the fellas with less than 2000hrs command that are being shafted isn't it?
You are correct...non of these changes would have stopped that 777 from crashing.
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@don
Does that mean they will downgrade Commander which are already flying the fat lady. some of them joined end 2013 and moved over end last year or earlier this year. it is impossible that they are close to one of these new requirements. some of them are even trainers. so what will happen to them?
Does that mean they will downgrade Commander which are already flying the fat lady. some of them joined end 2013 and moved over end last year or earlier this year. it is impossible that they are close to one of these new requirements. some of them are even trainers. so what will happen to them?
WB you may have missed the bit where I said I didn't make the rules. Nor do I agree with them.
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donpizmeov
you got that right,only guys with less then +2000hrs PIC EK A330/340 are being shafted..
point is those guyshave been sitting on the LHS long enough to accrue 3000+ if not 4000 ,were they flying an A380 or a 777.
For years flying many short sectors, many cycles, low hours ( average 50 a month) with 7-8 days off a month, all night time, all monsoon all was zones...doing MFF on the different birds..copying with old airplanes and snugs, working in **** hole airports,with following handling and ATC..
getting paid less, working much harder...
is that less experience then watching movies and sipping coffee in a ULR augmenting???
are we not SAFE????
I don't know why, but I sense, were you in our shoes your comments would be a little less accommodating...
This is a no sense ,a slap in the face, an insult, something unheard of in the aviation history.
Plus not applied to every captains equally.. why a <2000 hrs PIC 777/380 captain is SAFER then me, to not deserve to seat on the RHS to gain experience and make them feel SAFE?
why not give the possibility to change fleet? why do not make us cruise captain? why another upgrade review and "captain transfer course"? why the shame? why the ****?
...what a sadness...
you got that right,only guys with less then +2000hrs PIC EK A330/340 are being shafted..
point is those guyshave been sitting on the LHS long enough to accrue 3000+ if not 4000 ,were they flying an A380 or a 777.
For years flying many short sectors, many cycles, low hours ( average 50 a month) with 7-8 days off a month, all night time, all monsoon all was zones...doing MFF on the different birds..copying with old airplanes and snugs, working in **** hole airports,with following handling and ATC..
getting paid less, working much harder...
is that less experience then watching movies and sipping coffee in a ULR augmenting???
are we not SAFE????
I don't know why, but I sense, were you in our shoes your comments would be a little less accommodating...
This is a no sense ,a slap in the face, an insult, something unheard of in the aviation history.
Plus not applied to every captains equally.. why a <2000 hrs PIC 777/380 captain is SAFER then me, to not deserve to seat on the RHS to gain experience and make them feel SAFE?
why not give the possibility to change fleet? why do not make us cruise captain? why another upgrade review and "captain transfer course"? why the shame? why the ****?
...what a sadness...
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If only Airbus had designed their aircraft with a level of commonality to allow a relatively straightforward transition between types, then EK wouldn't have to implement such a policy. Oh, wait...
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This is a no sense ,a slap in the face, an insult, something unheard of in the aviation history.
In the US to appease the Colgan families the FAA mandated 1500hrs for commercial operations. We all know that was just dumb but the FAA believed something needed to be seen to be done which is the same reason for a Captain having to ask a Grade 2 to come to the cockpit so they can go pee pee.
You clearly believe they are trying to personally shaft you. They are not; they are doing what all managers do, something to be seen to be doing something. But...whilst your frustrations can be understood the way you present them risks vindicating the decision taken.
Just confused
As I said I'm just confused at the constant changes to 380 LHS requirements ... In fact I rarely follow the ever moving goalposts but in this case I feel that some of our colleagues have been treated badly . Hasn't occurred to me to cry like a baby though ! .. and some of the posts were very informative regarding required hrs etc . I also believe that Rh to Lhs transitions on type are fine , more experienced carriers than EK have successfully done this , & with the reduction of the 330/340 fleet I suppose there weren't many other options .. There is probably a financial angle as well but unsurprisingly I can't see it .
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Errr....Schnowzer
How many of those Captains got downgraded to FO's?
Please feel free to take time to research your answer.
And yes it is an insult. To say my EBL,KBL,TRV,KBL,BSR,PEW added together is worth less than someone who augmented to LAX and flew halfway back.
Eeeeeer....
How many of those Captains got downgraded to FO's?
Please feel free to take time to research your answer.
And yes it is an insult. To say my EBL,KBL,TRV,KBL,BSR,PEW added together is worth less than someone who augmented to LAX and flew halfway back.
Eeeeeer....
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Schowzer
" having people with four stripes and 4years WB experience sitting on the RHS as FO and go again trough command upgrade" IS unheard of!
...raising requirement might be something needed to be seen ..although not quite fair..
If this is the case why do not go retroactive and put RHS all the captainss with less then 2000 hrs EK WB PIC time ? How would you like that?
You see, we are the worst enemies of ourselves :if things do not touch you, or you have been screwed somehow,somewhere or somewhat before you instantly get happy to see someone else suffer of unfairness...
talking about frustration and "vindicating decision taken" , may be you misunderstood that my sadness is toward the numbness and the responses of the population,not the fact per se..
As far as I am concerned, nothing can be done except taking a decision at home ,each one with his own family and for the best..of the family..
l have learned many years ago not to hope in rescue coming from unions or pilots or management...
Finally Just consider this "more for your benefit then mine"..today is me;tomorrow ,who knows?
" having people with four stripes and 4years WB experience sitting on the RHS as FO and go again trough command upgrade" IS unheard of!
...raising requirement might be something needed to be seen ..although not quite fair..
If this is the case why do not go retroactive and put RHS all the captainss with less then 2000 hrs EK WB PIC time ? How would you like that?
You see, we are the worst enemies of ourselves :if things do not touch you, or you have been screwed somehow,somewhere or somewhat before you instantly get happy to see someone else suffer of unfairness...
talking about frustration and "vindicating decision taken" , may be you misunderstood that my sadness is toward the numbness and the responses of the population,not the fact per se..
As far as I am concerned, nothing can be done except taking a decision at home ,each one with his own family and for the best..of the family..
l have learned many years ago not to hope in rescue coming from unions or pilots or management...
Finally Just consider this "more for your benefit then mine"..today is me;tomorrow ,who knows?
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More hours does not necessarily equal greater experience
The entire aviation industry needs to wake up to the fact that using total hours as measure of a pilot's experience (and therefore suitability for a role) is outdated and irrelevant. Number of sectors flown is far more relevant.
Since the advent of long haul and ultra long haul flying, it has been possible to build thousands of hours whilst gaining very little useful experience.
The nature of the flying at Emirates means that many EK pilots have done just that.
The guys who have gained really useful experience on a widebody Airbus in the meantime are now the ones being screwed by this ridiculous policy.
Since the advent of long haul and ultra long haul flying, it has been possible to build thousands of hours whilst gaining very little useful experience.
The nature of the flying at Emirates means that many EK pilots have done just that.
The guys who have gained really useful experience on a widebody Airbus in the meantime are now the ones being screwed by this ridiculous policy.
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Funnily enough I had a chap from Airbus on the CDG flight a few weeks back. We got talking and basically he said that EK would struggle to carry on with the 380. The ideal use for them is like someone already pointed out, 10 or so with fancy cabins, and Jewell in the fleet etc.
But anyway- why the f*** would a company demote experience 330/340 guys? Surely the whole idea of the similar familiar cockpit design was to assist in such a transfer, not to downgrade etc! I believe BA did this when then acquired the 380 buy having guys off the 320 move over.
OMAAbound
But anyway- why the f*** would a company demote experience 330/340 guys? Surely the whole idea of the similar familiar cockpit design was to assist in such a transfer, not to downgrade etc! I believe BA did this when then acquired the 380 buy having guys off the 320 move over.
OMAAbound
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Well considering some one crashed a 777 in front of the HQ they should have changed the requirements on the 777.
The 'family ghost' always appears when such transitions retard the personal carreer
, but there is something to it. AB and B put in quite some effort to make transitions within their product easier (cheaper for company). Pilots however want to be promoted and for that would not deny any equipment change (more doe). Both sides easily swap arguments pro or con to suit their momentary needs. I remember the T7 FOs grinding at the idea of 334 FOs transit upgrading, just as 380 FOs called T7 skippers transiting dangerous. As i said, there is something to it. Trained and experienced on one philosophy, regarding the complexity of modern aircraft, one might have to remain in that line, as a lot of automatisms and underlying programmation (thus inherent dangers) can be better mitigated (Swiss cheese model).
Same goes with a seat change. The one time we change is the time we get the most training -- upgrade. Downgrades are done with little regard to training needs, short and often unnecessary. I am no fan of seat changes (see the problems AF447 revealed).
Considering the above, i find the actual policy inadequate. The EK 334 skippers are qualified enough to make the jump onto the 380. If they upgraded from the 334 they are more suited to operate the 380, even with only 1000h captaincy, than a T7 skipper with the required hours.
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Well if the company would downgrade all 380 captains with less than 2000 pic hours on 380... It would be hundreds of captains downgraded...not an option.
This downgrade story happened already in history in western europe in 2006 or 7 then with the time those concerned left or got promoted again.
In EK most of us have been trapped at least once( twice personnally).
Wouldn't be an insurance problem now after the accident if those criterias are changing? Who knows?
This downgrade story happened already in history in western europe in 2006 or 7 then with the time those concerned left or got promoted again.
In EK most of us have been trapped at least once( twice personnally).
Wouldn't be an insurance problem now after the accident if those criterias are changing? Who knows?
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Lots of LHS A330 jobs on the first page of Flightglobal jobs website...didn't even scroll to second page.
https://jobs.flightglobal.com/searchjobs/?Keywords=Captain&radialtown=&LocationId=&RadialLocation=5
The best part is, if you miss the pit (don't laugh!) - you can come back in a couple of years time as a 380 DEC and go through the transition with one of your downgraded mates!
😂
TIC -
sad but stranger things have happened around here
https://jobs.flightglobal.com/searchjobs/?Keywords=Captain&radialtown=&LocationId=&RadialLocation=5
The best part is, if you miss the pit (don't laugh!) - you can come back in a couple of years time as a 380 DEC and go through the transition with one of your downgraded mates!
😂
TIC -
sad but stranger things have happened around here
Last edited by fliion; 22nd Sep 2016 at 14:54.
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Good stuff Toledo .
I've read a lot of junk here and your post is right to the point.
Hours as a measure of suitability is utter nonsense.
Moreover, As a point of note : I'd rather be sat in the back with my family of a 380 who's captain is fresh off the ccq and has 15 years experience on 320, 330 and 340.
Verses sat in the back of a triple 7, who's Captain is fresh off the 330 to 777 transfer and has 15 years experience on the 320 330 and 340.
Notice I've made no reference to hours - I'll take the Cm1 with the most time below 10,000ft on a similar type.
I've read a lot of junk here and your post is right to the point.
Hours as a measure of suitability is utter nonsense.
Moreover, As a point of note : I'd rather be sat in the back with my family of a 380 who's captain is fresh off the ccq and has 15 years experience on 320, 330 and 340.
Verses sat in the back of a triple 7, who's Captain is fresh off the 330 to 777 transfer and has 15 years experience on the 320 330 and 340.
Notice I've made no reference to hours - I'll take the Cm1 with the most time below 10,000ft on a similar type.
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The focus on block hours in this industry is madness. If you don't look at number of flights and type of flying block hours says absolutely nothing about your experience.
Camel,
None but then again we also had guys complaining about being stuck on the A310 even though it gave them a command 2 years quicker than their peers! In the past, the rules changed on a whim and instead of having a Captain's pay packet they stayed as FOs flying to just the same crappy destinations that you have been to for another 3 years or so whilst the company employed DECS.
Believe it or not crappy rosters have been around since before you joined, as have DECs and shifting terms and conditions. I actually wouldn't give a toss if I was in the RHS but being paid as a Captain, if the alternative was to be stuck as an FO. For years we argued for bypass pay, it sounds like you have got closer to it than anyone ever before.
Out of interest, how would you feel about a Captain upgraded on the 330 jumping ahead of their more senior peers on the A380 that didn't get upgraded on the 330 before they were then forced into a fleet transfer?
How many of those Captains got downgraded to FO's?
Please feel free to take time to research your answer.
Please feel free to take time to research your answer.
Believe it or not crappy rosters have been around since before you joined, as have DECs and shifting terms and conditions. I actually wouldn't give a toss if I was in the RHS but being paid as a Captain, if the alternative was to be stuck as an FO. For years we argued for bypass pay, it sounds like you have got closer to it than anyone ever before.
Out of interest, how would you feel about a Captain upgraded on the 330 jumping ahead of their more senior peers on the A380 that didn't get upgraded on the 330 before they were then forced into a fleet transfer?
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"And yes it is an insult. To say my EBL,KBL,TRV,KBL,BSR,PEW added together is worth less than someone who augmented to LAX and flew halfway back."
I didn't say anything about that! I have been a massive supporter that experience has nothing to do with flying hours, so I am with you on that one, but do you think that has anything to do with it? I also don't think it matters which seat you are in as long as you are fully engaged, experience is experience.
As to downgrades, we have had guys recruited as DECs turned into First Officers on their course and guys passed over for command at will. At various times the 330 has been faster than the 777 and vice versa. I joined and ended up behind all the 777 guys that joined with me but that was just my tough luck. I know many of the early movers to the 380 were really screwed by the change in command criteria after they joined the fleet and ended up years behind their mates on the 777.
I didn't say anything about that! I have been a massive supporter that experience has nothing to do with flying hours, so I am with you on that one, but do you think that has anything to do with it? I also don't think it matters which seat you are in as long as you are fully engaged, experience is experience.
As to downgrades, we have had guys recruited as DECs turned into First Officers on their course and guys passed over for command at will. At various times the 330 has been faster than the 777 and vice versa. I joined and ended up behind all the 777 guys that joined with me but that was just my tough luck. I know many of the early movers to the 380 were really screwed by the change in command criteria after they joined the fleet and ended up years behind their mates on the 777.
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Thanks Don, i understood your point on the rules
I just liked to ask if somebody knows whats going to happen with those DEC from 2013/14 which already shifted to 380, if they are safe or not. I believe they never ever have made 2000 stick time in 2,5 years either on 330 or 380 or on both together. this just out of couriosity w/o any comments who made the rule or how good it is.
i just liked to find out who is effectively effected by this
thanks
I just liked to ask if somebody knows whats going to happen with those DEC from 2013/14 which already shifted to 380, if they are safe or not. I believe they never ever have made 2000 stick time in 2,5 years either on 330 or 380 or on both together. this just out of couriosity w/o any comments who made the rule or how good it is.
i just liked to find out who is effectively effected by this
thanks
