B777 Emergency DXB
Join Date: Jul 2002
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FO is obviously in jail
Capt obviously in freedom
Capt obviously in freedom
Don't let the truth get in your way of EK hatred!!!
No one is in jail.
There is enough real ****e here without making stuff up.
There is enough real ****e here without making stuff up.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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A long landing would not necessarily be a tea & biscuits scenario, though possible, however any investigator must take a serious look at the relationship or trust factor between the pilots and their Mgt re when and why quick decisions are made and whether we operate somewhat subconsciously with a dark shadow sitting on our shoulders & the consequences of punishment should one get it wrong.
If an investigator wants to get an idea of trust - consider just two things off the top of a very large pile.
1) The Mgt are trying to hide for the first time in decades where we stand on the seniority list
&
2) The Mgt have failed to uphold a promise of a monthly Fleet Forum with the pilots so that we can exchange our concerns on, amongst other things, a degradation in safety in relation to long term fatigue.
Now an independent reader will perhaps look at the above and say "no biggie"
Well it's a big deal when it comes to building trust - or more importantly destroying it.
And when trust is destroyed - good pilots, decent human beings - can make very quick decisions based on whether or not someone has their back.
I don't think any EK pilot believes that a Co who does not have the courtesy of letting them know where they sit amongst their peers - or fails to provide a promised forum to pass safety concerns - feels anything other than a stab in the back.
If an investigator wants to get an idea of trust - consider just two things off the top of a very large pile.
1) The Mgt are trying to hide for the first time in decades where we stand on the seniority list
&
2) The Mgt have failed to uphold a promise of a monthly Fleet Forum with the pilots so that we can exchange our concerns on, amongst other things, a degradation in safety in relation to long term fatigue.
Now an independent reader will perhaps look at the above and say "no biggie"
Well it's a big deal when it comes to building trust - or more importantly destroying it.
And when trust is destroyed - good pilots, decent human beings - can make very quick decisions based on whether or not someone has their back.
I don't think any EK pilot believes that a Co who does not have the courtesy of letting them know where they sit amongst their peers - or fails to provide a promised forum to pass safety concerns - feels anything other than a stab in the back.
Last edited by fliion; 10th Sep 2016 at 15:46.
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Fatty - he won't
- read again -
Nothing to do with a seniority list. It's the underlying trust factor between the two entities and how pilots are wired in a consequence culture.
It's gone. Another exampled would be how Certified illnes can result in letters & delayed upgrade. All these incremental policies make the culture what it is.
From a human factors perspective it should not go ignored.
Works out most of the time This won't be the last scrape.
- read again -
Nothing to do with a seniority list. It's the underlying trust factor between the two entities and how pilots are wired in a consequence culture.
It's gone. Another exampled would be how Certified illnes can result in letters & delayed upgrade. All these incremental policies make the culture what it is.
From a human factors perspective it should not go ignored.
Works out most of the time This won't be the last scrape.
Last edited by fliion; 10th Sep 2016 at 17:00.
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A long landing would not necessarily be a tea & biscuits scenario
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Read the om-a, section long landings. There is 1 very clear statement which proves they had no other choice or it was T£B and maybe worse....
I think it would be common sense with >2500m dry runway remaining and wheels touched down, that one should simply land, but the concept 'common sense' got binned long time ago.....
Still it remains a fact that during the missed manoeuver, as i have witnessed many times before, no one checked the FMA.....
I think it would be common sense with >2500m dry runway remaining and wheels touched down, that one should simply land, but the concept 'common sense' got binned long time ago.....
Still it remains a fact that during the missed manoeuver, as i have witnessed many times before, no one checked the FMA.....
Last edited by 5star; 11th Sep 2016 at 06:22. Reason: typo
Join Date: Jun 2016
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I was just wondering.
If the aircraft went around after touch down the spoilers would be deployed.
In the absence of thrust lever movement for the go around, how did the spoilers stow.
If they did not, would the aircraft get airborne by just the attitude and the flaps 20 selection.
If the aircraft went around after touch down the spoilers would be deployed.
In the absence of thrust lever movement for the go around, how did the spoilers stow.
If they did not, would the aircraft get airborne by just the attitude and the flaps 20 selection.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Reminds me of the Indian Airlines crash at Mangalore in 2010. Same similar punitive style culture!
...that was Air India Express AND the FO called 'Go-Around' multiple times (3, if I remember from reading the report). Where do you draw the line between a Just Culture and Punitive ?
...that was Air India Express AND the FO called 'Go-Around' multiple times (3, if I remember from reading the report). Where do you draw the line between a Just Culture and Punitive ?
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5star....to hell with the FMA. The FMA will not tell you what the aircraft is doing. When that close to the ground, check what the AIRCRAFT is doing, not the FMA. TOO much reliance on automation. Hand on the control wheel, hand on the throttles, feet on the rudders. Perhaps a strange concept to "children of the magenta line", but you have to fly the aircraft first. With the reliance on autothrottles, it has been discovered through eye tracking, that airspeed is looked at very infrequently on scans. A rejected landing, IMHO, is a manoeuver very similar to GPW, TCAS and windshear manoeuvers.
Fly fly fly, worry about the FMA later. The FMA should tell you what you have asked the plane to do, but not what the aircraft is actually doing. Example. VS -3000, spd selected 250. IDLE/LNAV/VERT SPD. As the airplane passes through 320kts....hey the FMA was correct. Exaggeration, perhaps, but again, the FMA doesn't tell you what the a/c is doing. That little box below the FMA will tell you. But when SECONDS count, the FMA is a luxury. Another example when SECONDS count, what does the FMA tell us on a rejected takeoff? Does it matter? Of course not. Do I care? Imagine if it were an SOP to call the FMA on a rejected takeoff. A GPWS event? We would say the SOP writers had lost their minds.
A normal G/A, of course call the FMA. But when seconds count; airspeed, pitch/roll, climb/decent, power. But of course when we engage or disconnect the automation at 200ft.....well flying skills and scans are finished.
Sorry 5star, you touched a nerve on that one.
Fly fly fly, worry about the FMA later. The FMA should tell you what you have asked the plane to do, but not what the aircraft is actually doing. Example. VS -3000, spd selected 250. IDLE/LNAV/VERT SPD. As the airplane passes through 320kts....hey the FMA was correct. Exaggeration, perhaps, but again, the FMA doesn't tell you what the a/c is doing. That little box below the FMA will tell you. But when SECONDS count, the FMA is a luxury. Another example when SECONDS count, what does the FMA tell us on a rejected takeoff? Does it matter? Of course not. Do I care? Imagine if it were an SOP to call the FMA on a rejected takeoff. A GPWS event? We would say the SOP writers had lost their minds.
A normal G/A, of course call the FMA. But when seconds count; airspeed, pitch/roll, climb/decent, power. But of course when we engage or disconnect the automation at 200ft.....well flying skills and scans are finished.
Sorry 5star, you touched a nerve on that one.
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TU.... I couldn't disagree more. You don't need to choose between reading the FMA and knowing what the aircraft is doing.
You theory might work in day VMC. Try that at night with blowing wind and you eyes are telling you lies. Or are you recommending another body part to sense the aircraft state?
Anyhow, no need to respond. I'll stick with SOP and fly the aircraft.
You theory might work in day VMC. Try that at night with blowing wind and you eyes are telling you lies. Or are you recommending another body part to sense the aircraft state?
Anyhow, no need to respond. I'll stick with SOP and fly the aircraft.
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That's what's telling me what the aircraft is doing.
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All correct, it is just a matter of priority. In performing missed approach my first concern would be my 1-thrust setting, 2-speed, 3-flaps configuration, 4- speed again, 5-positive rate...especially if A/P A/T are disconnected...if all are ok then I'll check what is on the FMA.
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PITCH, POWER, PERFORMANCE to keep things simple, I believe thats what Tango Uniform was referring to when he meant "fly the airplane first".
he never mentioned to look "outside" to see what the airplane is doing
It is much easier for a pilot's brain to look at the Pitch, the N1, at the speed tape and the VSI/ALT to understand what the airplane is doing instead of calling out some "obscure " FMA readouts ...
he never mentioned to look "outside" to see what the airplane is doing
It is much easier for a pilot's brain to look at the Pitch, the N1, at the speed tape and the VSI/ALT to understand what the airplane is doing instead of calling out some "obscure " FMA readouts ...
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FMAs: In HF parlance it's called Mode Awareness, an important component of SA flying highly automated airplanes. Easy to argue, was a factor both here and in Asiana 214. 3 levels of SA: Notice, Understand, Think ahead. System knowledge is needed to make sense of 'Noticing' to 'Understand'. Agree, though, that during a rejected landing flying "pitch, power, performance" is the way to go remembering that automatic g/a is not possible after touchdown. When airborne, push toga and confirm mode engagements from the FMA. All by the book.
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Funnily enough Lufthansa do not call a lot of FMA changes. Over the years I have had dozens of pilots who are religious FMA callers, fail to understand what the autopilot is doing. As a very subjective opinion, I have found that those most hard wired to the FMA and SOP's have the least awareness