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B777 Emergency DXB

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B777 Emergency DXB

Old 6th Aug 2016, 08:46
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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They don't call them muppets for nothing. At least they are consistent.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 09:32
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Halas, I have no problem with the company hiding roster stuff for anyone involved in an incident. So many people have access to it. Give those involved some privacy. If there is a work around I hope they fix it.
Unfortunately the information mentioned in now available in the cyber world, including pictures of each pilot AND their mobile phone numbers! It was sent to me last night, this is just so wrong, these guys are under enough pressure and should have a right to some privacy.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 09:57
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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mutt

Then tell the guy who sent it to you to delete it and stop sending it to everyone.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 10:00
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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So, quickly publishing the crew's flight experience in numbers is ok, but anything else is criminal.

Either go for a complete ban on any information, or leave everything available.

Because who should be in charge to decide what can be published?
Only the company? It doesn't seem right.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 10:24
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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You're right Harry but what you, and the cyber police of the UAE (and Emirates) don't seem to grasp is that once it is on the internet it is there for ever- there is no getting it back or deleting it.

I'm sure EK and the GCAA would love the "problem" to just un-happen and go away but it isn't going to and they need to stop trying to close the stable door when the horse is already in the next state and work with realities. You can not play down or try and cover up any incident in a public place in the 21st century.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 13:25
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Glofish, they

Leaked captain's roster with 29 hr layover, but FO and CC roster private
Leaked FO's name but captain's name is private
Claimed both have 7000 hrs without any details
Happy with ATC recordings
Happy with CC performance
Not happy with cut,burnt frame pics
Initially happy with comments about baggage brigade, later realized it is bad press.

Inability to handle conflict of interest is glaring. There should be separate press statements from airline, airport operator, regulator and city. One person cannot talk about everything, optics are really bad.

GCAA press conference cannot refer fire crew(RIP) as our own(national solidarity aside). It should come from Dubai Airports.
GCAA cannot tweet about UAE media laws, it should come from Dubai Police.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 14:44
  #107 (permalink)  
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Can I say (as we all know) just because the Captain had a 29 hour layover does not mean he he was not fatigued. Fatigue is a long term thing.
I also find it ( interesting) that the FO can be found on the Internet with no effort, but the Captain can not.

EK is in meltdown trying to protect the brand. The sad thing is, they will do it.

And those on the third floor, will continue to hand out the warning letters, ,and other types of constant ( implied or not) intimidation. I'm actually wondering if this EK accident was caused by ' in the back of my head, I do wrong will get a warning letter'.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 15:05
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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According to many who should know, not one Habibi from the 777 third floor could be bothered to meet inbound colleagues, unlike our own wonderful CC teams who were out in force in the arrivals area.

Maybe they had more important tasks or costa coffee to attend too.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 15:30
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Shoot me down if I'm wrong,but....if the METAR states 14 knot tailwind,with tempo swing to 12 knot headwind...or vice versa,wouldn't we ALL in our imagination,realise the possibility of a G/A requirement,and therefore run through the SOP for just that,in the brief,or at the latest,during final approach, with a touch drill included...Also,leaving the Autopilot in to make the G/A more simple..( last part an option).

Last edited by Yaw String; 6th Aug 2016 at 22:53.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 16:24
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Yaw String
Shoot me down if I'm wrong,but....if the METAR states 14 knot tailwind,with tempo swing to 12 knot headwind...wouldn't we ALL in our imagination,realise the possibility of a G/A requirement,and therefore run through the SOP for just that,in the brief,or at the latest,during final approach, with a touch drill included...Also,leaving the Autopilot in to make the G/A more simple..( last part an option).
Even more likely if it were headwind,to tailwind!

What's your point? Maybe they did do this, we weren't there so we don't know! No offense to you specifically YS (because maybe you didn't intend this as a criticism of the crew), but this is why we are our own worst enemies as pilots. All of the Monday-morning-quarterbacking that goes on after an accident/incident is sickening. Instead of admitting that we are all human and are ALL capable of making mistakes, and learning from each others mistakes, we are too quick to criticize and talk about how we would have done things so much differently (better) in said situation. That's very convenient when you are looking at an event in hindsight and weren't there to know exactly what circumstances they faced. To me the most dangerous pilot is one who says, "This type of thing could never happen to me because I'm such an ace pilot!". I much prefer the one who says, "What can I learn from this accident and how can I prevent this from ever happening to me?"...AND, might I add, we don't even know yet that any mistake was made on the part of the crew!
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 16:33
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SOPS
Can I say (as we all know) just because the Captain had a 29 hour layover does not mean he he was not fatigued. Fatigue is a long term thing.
I also find it ( interesting) that the FO can be found on the Internet with no effort, but the Captain can not.

EK is in meltdown trying to protect the brand. The sad thing is, they will do it.

And those on the third floor, will continue to hand out the warning letters, ,and other types of constant ( implied or not) intimidation. I'm actually wondering if this EK accident was caused by ' in the back of my head, I do wrong will get a warning letter'.
EK is the cornerstone of the Dubai economy. They will do everything to protect the brand. The fate of an expat doesn't count.....
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 16:38
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Agree with your general statement,POTATOW?..My point is,that given advanced indications of potential difficulties to come,( and I admit I only operate out of here at night) it is always prudent to plan for them.
I suffer as much as the next pilot,when it comes to surprise factor...Did they foresee the possible need to carry out a missed approach,and therefore,carry out a review,..Proactive,or reactive.
I fully agree with the comments on potential problems we all experience when we have to carry out a baulked landing,without having given it some thought..let alone,trying it,from zilch feet!

Meant to be a discussion point..in line with your last sentence..will be next scenario in recurrent simulator training,no doubt..

Last edited by Yaw String; 6th Aug 2016 at 16:50.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 17:14
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Yaw string

Creating discussion is great as long as we remember that. I'm sure that the data has already been recovered and that the initial cause is known.

Firstly, what I'm about to say is completely unrelated to recent events and represents only my personal viewpoint on technique. It is meant purely for discussion on an aviation themed forum. Secondly, it refers only to the operation of Boeing aircraft. Other manufactures may have different procedures or policies.

There is, in my opinion, an over reliance on automation and this manifests itself in the final stages of approach. I have seen, on numerous occasions, colleagues leave the autopilot in as late as possible, sometimes as low as 200' on cavok but windy days. The result of this, often, is a last minute fumble and over control as they have to deal with the last few feet and a flare. This effect is compounded by the design features of the B777 automatic flight control system which alters the flying characteristics at 500' and 200'. To mitigate this, why not disengage earlier to get 'tracking' time of the aircraft and get a feel for actually flying it? There is absolutely nothing stopping you re-engaging an autopilot throughout the approach or even after the initial G/A manoeuvre being completed......correctly.

It is my strong belief that because we encourage maximum use of automation, regardless of conditions, that we're creating a future generation of pilots either too scared or reluctant to do what they're trained to do. The less they hand fly, the less they feel able. Confidence is a remarkable trait and can only be gained by exposure to flying the plane, not pushing buttons and watching. In gusty and hot and high thermal conditions, I would strongly encourage an early disconnect, not the late one you recommend. Poor visibility, however, is another issue altogether.

Finally, as I mentioned at the start, this post in no way whatsoever eludes to recent events and is purely a direct response to a comment. It is to create a valid and reasonable discussion amongst professional pilots to enhance awareness and improve safety within the industry.

Harry

Last edited by harry the cod; 6th Aug 2016 at 17:28.
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 17:42
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by harry the cod
....
There is, in my opinion, an over reliance on automation and this manifests itself in the final stages of approach. I have seen, on numerous occasions, colleagues leave the autopilot in as late as possible, sometimes as low as 200' on cavok but windy days. The result of this, often, is a last minute fumble and over control as they have to deal with the last few feet and a flare. This effect is compounded by the design features of the B777 automatic flight control system which alters the flying characteristics at 500' and 200'. To mitigate this, why not disengage earlier to get 'tracking' time of the aircraft and get a feel for actually flying it? There is absolutely nothing stopping you re-engaging an autopilot throughout the approach or even after the initial G/A manoeuvre being completed......correctly.

It is my strong belief that because we encourage maximum use of automation, regardless of conditions, that we're creating a future generation of pilots either too scared or reluctant to do what they're trained to do. The less they hand fly, the less they feel able. Confidence is a remarkable trait and can only be gained by exposure to flying the plane, not pushing buttons and watching. In gusty and hot and high thermal conditions, I would strongly encourage an early disconnect, not the late one you recommend. Poor visibility, however, is another issue altogether.
That's nothing new. The discussion started already years ago. It looks like the FAA now admits that there is a problem.

https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/defaul...t%5E1-7-16.pdf
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Old 6th Aug 2016, 18:29
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Hi,Harry,last post from me on this one,...Autopilot use was not a recommendation from me,just an option,if you are too gut tired,after a long duty.
The Boeing pilots here will understand at which point an automated goaround is no longer available.
In this incident,they may have been in manual control,and recovering from a very uncomfortable and maybe never previously seen scenario.
However,the procedure and parameters of thrust,flap,attitude and positive climb do not change....the energy management is still the same...as the MD11 guys have commented.
Couldn't agree more on your comments regarding over reliance of automation...
YS.
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Old 7th Aug 2016, 07:54
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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How come the world knows who the FO was but not the Capt. Things that make you go "hum".
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Old 7th Aug 2016, 08:05
  #117 (permalink)  
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Exactly what I said, Fatty.
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Old 7th Aug 2016, 08:23
  #118 (permalink)  
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The 777 go around will result in a speed decay below Vref during a go around if Bug+5 is selected and engines spooled up. The problem is amplified in averse winds and heavier weights.
Good idea to manually push the thrust up as a lead during the go around for both RR and GE types.
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Old 7th Aug 2016, 08:37
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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EK, the GCAA, the Ruler's Court, Dubai Governmant etc etc will do EVERYTHING to protect the details of the UAE National Captain. I am not apportioning any blame but the fact that even the Aussie FO's shoe size is now online, indicate the level of cooperation that may be expected from from the UAE authorities.

Interestingly enough, today in the government-owned The National, there is a story stating that the investigation MAY take up to a year whereas a few days ago, all was going to be done and dusted in a month.

A few weeks ago, The National also stated that the US was not going to pursue the whole allegations of subsidies with the Big 3. The next day, the US stated not true!

Add this to the removal of the seniority list, allegations of flammable clothing, (allegedly) fatiguing rosters, the wholesale reduction in experience for new joiners not to mention the FD disaster, a very clear picture of life at EK emerges.

I don't believe that there are many national civil aviation authorities dealing with two hull losses in such a short period.

There are no unions nor is there a Labour Law for EK staff. Additionally, the GCAA!!!! has warned people not to post pictures or video on social media of this latest disaster. They could be prosecuted and go to prison!! Not the Federal Government or Dubai Police. The aviation regulator. Think about that.

Stay safe out there.
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Old 7th Aug 2016, 09:44
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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I agree but in today's age of social media and technology, I find it odd . Let's wait and see how long it takes.
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