never fear, ryan air is here
Thread Starter
never fear, ryan air is here
Jungle drums say CPLs with 1500hrs with the Ryans are on the way.
Oh goody, less than 2 years airline flying, and potentially these will be the 2IC's offering useful advice about that time over the South China Sea, fer fecks sake, this is getting ridiculous.
Thread Starter
Stories beginning with " at CTC camp" 
While I agree that more experience is preferable, who do you suggest the airline should hire at a time when the global pilots supply is dwindling?
I would think that 2 years of very intensive jet operations in Europe should produce some acceptable candidates?
I would think that 2 years of very intensive jet operations in Europe should produce some acceptable candidates?
Secondly, look at my name, I used to work in a place that took 250hr cadets aka just like Pikey Air, I can tell you right now that with the type of varied operation and threats that we get exposed too at EK each day, it's another hole in the cheese lining up. You can't put an experienced head on inexperienced shoulders, 1500hrs in a 737/A320 around Europe or anywhere else IS inexperienced, they don't know what they don't know, and "acceptable" is subjective, "acceptable" to whom? AAL? JA? MM? You? The travelling paying public? the underwriters?
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1500hrs on a medium jet is not that much different from from the current minimum requirement as it stands (more than 2000hrs on MTOW greater than 20T), when you consider what the company can actually lower the requirements to.
Bear in mind the FCI from almost a year ago which permits ZFT training to be conducted for new entrants with 500 hrs or 100 route sectors on turbo props with a MTOW greater than 10T or with more than 19 seats. This is significantly different from the current requirement of more than 3000hrs on MTOW between 10T and 20T.
I suspect that is where the minimum requirements will be heading in due course.
Plus bear in mind if you do four sectors a day for five days a week then one has accumulated 100 route sectors in just one month!
Bear in mind the FCI from almost a year ago which permits ZFT training to be conducted for new entrants with 500 hrs or 100 route sectors on turbo props with a MTOW greater than 10T or with more than 19 seats. This is significantly different from the current requirement of more than 3000hrs on MTOW between 10T and 20T.
I suspect that is where the minimum requirements will be heading in due course.
Plus bear in mind if you do four sectors a day for five days a week then one has accumulated 100 route sectors in just one month!
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Why doesn't EK employ these youngsters as SOs for a couple of years? I haven't bothered to do any sums but surely this would release a fair number of FOs to the upgrade programme and/or the line?
Yes, we have cadets - as do many other outfits - that slot straight into the RHS but whether or not that's a good idea is a topic all on it's own.
Yes, we have cadets - as do many other outfits - that slot straight into the RHS but whether or not that's a good idea is a topic all on it's own.
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In my experience (+31 years in the business, and until quite recently +7 years in FZ.. though I've since resigned and departed the sandpit = happy days!), I've operated to more than my fair share of challenging places (**** holes) around the planet.
During my stint within FZ, I regularly had the company of some very (read that as 'very!!!') inexperienced F/O's in the RHS (with some, but not all, being local UAE 'Cadet Pilots') and it'd be fair to say that all were as keen as mustard to learn and therein they rapidly developed & excelled, i.e. when under the auspices of good instruction.
That said, imho, the ones to watch out for were the supposedly experienced F/O's, and from whom I've more than once had to take control.
So, imho, it's not about total hours.
What is about is sectors; the operating environment in which those sectors were attained; their ability to 'adapt'; their ability & attitude to learn.
It's also very much about the ability & knowledge of their instructors !
Therein my biggest complaint would be that far, far, too many so called 'instructors' (typically "yes!" men getting promoted to training positions) seemingly have a fine grasp of the non-essentials (e.g. they're massively wrapped-up in the minutiae of the SOP's) but haven't a f'ing clue (or are themselves unable to demonstrate, let alone teach) how to land a Public Transport jet in +35kt crosswind, and veritably the **** that some of them come out with (and teach, to impressionable F/O's) simply beggars belief... for some of them I'm sure it'd be acceptable to fly into a f'ing mountain, just so long as you were following SOP to the letter and / or that it was 'legal' (I can feel an attack of Tourette's Syndrome coming on).
Fwiw, I'm now HoT at my new lot and the regime I'm implementing here is all about flying the aeroplane first & foremost along with (and I can almost hear my ME counterparts wincing at the suggestion) those old chestnuts called common sense & 'airmanship' !
During my stint within FZ, I regularly had the company of some very (read that as 'very!!!') inexperienced F/O's in the RHS (with some, but not all, being local UAE 'Cadet Pilots') and it'd be fair to say that all were as keen as mustard to learn and therein they rapidly developed & excelled, i.e. when under the auspices of good instruction.
That said, imho, the ones to watch out for were the supposedly experienced F/O's, and from whom I've more than once had to take control.
So, imho, it's not about total hours.
What is about is sectors; the operating environment in which those sectors were attained; their ability to 'adapt'; their ability & attitude to learn.
It's also very much about the ability & knowledge of their instructors !
Therein my biggest complaint would be that far, far, too many so called 'instructors' (typically "yes!" men getting promoted to training positions) seemingly have a fine grasp of the non-essentials (e.g. they're massively wrapped-up in the minutiae of the SOP's) but haven't a f'ing clue (or are themselves unable to demonstrate, let alone teach) how to land a Public Transport jet in +35kt crosswind, and veritably the **** that some of them come out with (and teach, to impressionable F/O's) simply beggars belief... for some of them I'm sure it'd be acceptable to fly into a f'ing mountain, just so long as you were following SOP to the letter and / or that it was 'legal' (I can feel an attack of Tourette's Syndrome coming on).
Fwiw, I'm now HoT at my new lot and the regime I'm implementing here is all about flying the aeroplane first & foremost along with (and I can almost hear my ME counterparts wincing at the suggestion) those old chestnuts called common sense & 'airmanship' !
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It's the quality of person you get (at selection that is), all the rest comes after.
Hours hours hours, they mean nothing if one is unable to learn quickly and adapt to the enviroment. There are complex fast jet military pilots converting on type with 180 hours total. It' selection and good training. All the rest is words.
Hours hours hours, they mean nothing if one is unable to learn quickly and adapt to the enviroment. There are complex fast jet military pilots converting on type with 180 hours total. It' selection and good training. All the rest is words.
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Didn't you need 4000 hrs jet time to apply for EK some years ago?
Since that, they have dropped the requirements several times, and every time people step up and defend the quality of less experienced pilots.
You can't blame the current shortage of pilots. EK used to be top pick. They would still get quality pilots if that was still the case. It's not.
I've got nothing against FR pilots. Just give them a DME, and they will know exactly when to set the flaps and lower the gear. That is airmanship at the highest level.
It takes about two months of flying to get them to start thinking again.
Since that, they have dropped the requirements several times, and every time people step up and defend the quality of less experienced pilots.
You can't blame the current shortage of pilots. EK used to be top pick. They would still get quality pilots if that was still the case. It's not.
I've got nothing against FR pilots. Just give them a DME, and they will know exactly when to set the flaps and lower the gear. That is airmanship at the highest level.
It takes about two months of flying to get them to start thinking again.
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William Finch
From the time Finch was 8 years old, his dream was to become a pilot when he grew up. That dream came true, when as a 19-year-old draftee, he was assigned to pilot training at Maxwell Field in Decatur, Ala., then sent to Freeman Field, Seymour, Ind., for advanced training. Finch's plane was the B-17 bomber.
He recalls his mother pinning on his wings and second lieutenant bars at flight school graduation in August 1944. His father and his girlfriend, Kathryn Carter, were there, too.
"It was one of my most memorable and proudest moments," Finch said.
B-17 bombers were a vital part of the United States' WWII offense in Europe, and Finch was assigned to the 815th Squadron of the 483rd Bomb Group, 15th Air Force.
At 20, he became one of the youngest men to fly combat in a B-17. The four-engine bomber was equipped with six defensive gun locations and was called the "Flying Fortress." Group formations of the plane provided its best defense. Planes flew in tight formation to allow the guns of multiple planes to be brought to bear on approaching enemy fighters.
With a crew of eight, Finch had the job of air commander. After the first encounter with enemy fire, "Flying didn't seem as much fun," Finch confessed, nor was the near mid-air collision with another plane. But his whole crew survived the war and came home safe, and for that he says he is thankful.
"Even as a young boy, I never approved of war, but I know it's a necessary evil. War is hell," he said. "I was lucky. I got drafted near the end of the war, lived through it, and celebrated the end on V-E Day." Finch said. He and his crew were in Foggia, Italy, on that historic day, May 8, 1945.
Finch was discharged at the age of 22 in October 1946 with the rank of captain. During his short military career he earned the Air Medal, American Theatre Ribbon, European-African-Middle East Theatre Ribbon with two bronze battle stars, Occupation Ribbon with two service bars, and a Victory Medal.
He recalls his mother pinning on his wings and second lieutenant bars at flight school graduation in August 1944. His father and his girlfriend, Kathryn Carter, were there, too.
"It was one of my most memorable and proudest moments," Finch said.
B-17 bombers were a vital part of the United States' WWII offense in Europe, and Finch was assigned to the 815th Squadron of the 483rd Bomb Group, 15th Air Force.
At 20, he became one of the youngest men to fly combat in a B-17. The four-engine bomber was equipped with six defensive gun locations and was called the "Flying Fortress." Group formations of the plane provided its best defense. Planes flew in tight formation to allow the guns of multiple planes to be brought to bear on approaching enemy fighters.
With a crew of eight, Finch had the job of air commander. After the first encounter with enemy fire, "Flying didn't seem as much fun," Finch confessed, nor was the near mid-air collision with another plane. But his whole crew survived the war and came home safe, and for that he says he is thankful.
"Even as a young boy, I never approved of war, but I know it's a necessary evil. War is hell," he said. "I was lucky. I got drafted near the end of the war, lived through it, and celebrated the end on V-E Day." Finch said. He and his crew were in Foggia, Italy, on that historic day, May 8, 1945.
Finch was discharged at the age of 22 in October 1946 with the rank of captain. During his short military career he earned the Air Medal, American Theatre Ribbon, European-African-Middle East Theatre Ribbon with two bronze battle stars, Occupation Ribbon with two service bars, and a Victory Medal.
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And without in any way intending to disrespect any of those who put themselves on the line, there was an expected attrition rate.
Not something that would be acceptable today!
Not something that would be acceptable today!
My experience tells me that there are more than enough Captains who are scared of their own shadows, enough to be mentally crippled when it comes to making any kind of decision because they can't reach HQ on the sat phone or because OMA or the FCOM doesn't cover it - I've seen it enough occasions to know it's not a one off. So tell me, what's the threat again? Largely dedicated guys and girls from Ryanair with buckets of enthusiasm and sharpness, who are keen to learn? I don't think so.
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My experience tells me that there are more than enough Captains who are scared of their own shadows, enough to be mentally crippled when it comes to making any kind of decision because they can't reach HQ on the sat phone or because OMA or the FCOM doesn't cover it
So tell me, what's the threat again? Largely dedicated guys and girls from Ryanair with buckets of enthusiasm and sharpness, who are keen to learn?
I know this is exagerated and sarcastic, but it reflects some truth ......
Most European legacy airlines have taken cadets and low houred DEPs into the RHS of narrow - bodied jets for years. Although, the training departments are well geared up for this level of experience. Longhaul/ wide-bodied flying to the more remote parts of the World will be a challenge for any Junior F/O, particularly if the unthinkable happens and there is an incapacitation in the LHS.
The risks are heightened if the stars align and the whole crew is inexperienced - crew pairing restrictions or not.
The risks are heightened if the stars align and the whole crew is inexperienced - crew pairing restrictions or not.
Thread Starter
I think history will prove they will be better than what comes next.