Pilot hit by ground vehicle during walk-around!
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There are mountains of ASRs published in the weekly summaries about apron vehicles driving dangerously (all with no action because the drivers can't be identified), and frequent comments about the airport "investigating" the idea of painting ID numbers on the roofs of all vehicles so that dangerous drivers can be traced, but that would have repercussions for managers as well as for manning levels once folk started getting the heave-ho, so pound to a penny it'll never happen. I also heard a news headline on the local radio about an intended police clamp down on the vast number of unlicensed drivers in the UAE, and I think I heard an estimate of 50% (I was concentrating on something else at the time, so it could easily have been 15%, or some entirely different number, but given the standards on the roads...).
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Hi Postive Rate
Believe me, my facts are 100% accurate and I would like to think details in my second post show this.
You have a very valid point in that there are more better paid jobs on the market, however the Emirates Group is a very much sought after outfit to work for, especially for those folk coming generally from the sub continent.
The way in which the recently restructured job role for these guys has gone means that the 'drivers' are now actually paid more than this time a year ago.
Oh, just for reference (but not aimed at you, Positive) the general 'driver force' do not operate the kind of equipment that were involved in this accident due to their lack of ramp working experience. It's all too easy to throw mud and hope that it sticks nowadays.
Believe me, my facts are 100% accurate and I would like to think details in my second post show this.
You have a very valid point in that there are more better paid jobs on the market, however the Emirates Group is a very much sought after outfit to work for, especially for those folk coming generally from the sub continent.
The way in which the recently restructured job role for these guys has gone means that the 'drivers' are now actually paid more than this time a year ago.
Oh, just for reference (but not aimed at you, Positive) the general 'driver force' do not operate the kind of equipment that were involved in this accident due to their lack of ramp working experience. It's all too easy to throw mud and hope that it sticks nowadays.
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So Land Jumper
You are a sort of Senior Vice President for ground staff and magazines deliveries, and you pretend to have a better view on the apron, from your office than us from the cockpit...
Hi, why don't you come and fly our aircraft by yourself, buddy ? that would bring so many fantastic improvements, I'm sure you already have plenty of ideas.
Please patronize your Indian staff as much as you want about wearing the yellow jackets - just simply avoid doing that with pilots, you and us are not in the same schoolyard.
Beware also of not being swallowed by your printer, and also not falling from your rotating seat - and of course don't put your pen into your eye.
We pilots on those forums are always suspicious of people popping out of nowhere for a specific post, never to be heard again - although that's the best which could happen to you.
Anytime, baby.
You are a sort of Senior Vice President for ground staff and magazines deliveries, and you pretend to have a better view on the apron, from your office than us from the cockpit...
Hi, why don't you come and fly our aircraft by yourself, buddy ? that would bring so many fantastic improvements, I'm sure you already have plenty of ideas.
Please patronize your Indian staff as much as you want about wearing the yellow jackets - just simply avoid doing that with pilots, you and us are not in the same schoolyard.
Beware also of not being swallowed by your printer, and also not falling from your rotating seat - and of course don't put your pen into your eye.
We pilots on those forums are always suspicious of people popping out of nowhere for a specific post, never to be heard again - although that's the best which could happen to you.
Anytime, baby.
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Kobus,
Amazing how a simple reply to a column has put your nose so obviously out of joint.
Just to bring you up to speed, I spend a vast majority of my time out and about with my teams, something your management seem to be missing out on. Also, I completely respect the work and conditions that my team work in.
I would also never wish to 'jump' into your seat as you put it. I am not qualified for this and would therefore never speak about how you guys perform.
What I do take offence from is the complete disregard that some of you so called 'professionals' endear to my teams.
I have been in this pit for as long as many of you and therefore feel completely qualified to throw back much of the abuse that you seem to like throwing down from your seats.
If you took a little time to try to understand what my guys go through them i'm sure much of your mud slinging would stop.
Yes, moan and bitch about your 90 odd hours all you want but the ramp and what happens down there is not your venting ground.
Yes, i'm new to this forum but considering your initial derogatory remarks I feel I can't stay quiet any longer.
I respect the professionals in this industry but sadly (although I personally and professionally know many flight deck) there are absolute ignorant muppets like yourself that just want to point fingers.
You are no better than those on the 7th floor and above.
I make no apologies for my outburst as I am sure that you would vent similar if someone wanted to try to smear your crew.
Evidently my original post knocked a few noses out of joint but I can promise you this, my comments and posts of the future will only contain fact when pushed.
Oh and as a final point, I recently left the 'Group' and have many axes to grind but I still will and always show support to those that do the hard graft in ridiculous conditions.
Amazing how a simple reply to a column has put your nose so obviously out of joint.
Just to bring you up to speed, I spend a vast majority of my time out and about with my teams, something your management seem to be missing out on. Also, I completely respect the work and conditions that my team work in.
I would also never wish to 'jump' into your seat as you put it. I am not qualified for this and would therefore never speak about how you guys perform.
What I do take offence from is the complete disregard that some of you so called 'professionals' endear to my teams.
I have been in this pit for as long as many of you and therefore feel completely qualified to throw back much of the abuse that you seem to like throwing down from your seats.
If you took a little time to try to understand what my guys go through them i'm sure much of your mud slinging would stop.
Yes, moan and bitch about your 90 odd hours all you want but the ramp and what happens down there is not your venting ground.
Yes, i'm new to this forum but considering your initial derogatory remarks I feel I can't stay quiet any longer.
I respect the professionals in this industry but sadly (although I personally and professionally know many flight deck) there are absolute ignorant muppets like yourself that just want to point fingers.
You are no better than those on the 7th floor and above.
I make no apologies for my outburst as I am sure that you would vent similar if someone wanted to try to smear your crew.
Evidently my original post knocked a few noses out of joint but I can promise you this, my comments and posts of the future will only contain fact when pushed.
Oh and as a final point, I recently left the 'Group' and have many axes to grind but I still will and always show support to those that do the hard graft in ridiculous conditions.
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Land Hopper
I will go out on a limb and say you are reading from the script.
Like any other questionable practice with this world class entity there are posts claiming there are ramp workers with expired licenses (not driving lic). Also ramp accidents are very common but are cleaned up quickly and quietly.
Of course any such claim will be vehemently denied, leaving analysts scratching their heads.
Another interesting aspect of this great entity, PR team jumps on any single violation anywhere else in the world and start preaching about rules, regulations and safe practices.
I will go out on a limb and say you are reading from the script.
Like any other questionable practice with this world class entity there are posts claiming there are ramp workers with expired licenses (not driving lic). Also ramp accidents are very common but are cleaned up quickly and quietly.
Of course any such claim will be vehemently denied, leaving analysts scratching their heads.
Another interesting aspect of this great entity, PR team jumps on any single violation anywhere else in the world and start preaching about rules, regulations and safe practices.
Unfortunately you are again, listening to hearsay and not fact.
The ground equipment used here in DXB is access controlled which means unless you have the requisite training and approvals you cannot start the ignition.
Now, I will say that in some instances the standard may not be to the level that many of us originate from. However, I will reiterate my initial point of seeing flight deck on too many occasions (day or night) think that they can perform their walk arounds without hi visibility jackets.
Let's get this straight right now, you are not exempted from this regulation and as such, if such an incident occurs, bear as much accountability as the operator in question.
I for one, cannot understand nor consider what this person is mentally going through right now, nor would I ever want to. But, to hear the accusations and downright terrible rhetoric aimed at him is an absolute disgrace.
As a professional in a professional industry, I feel sorry for this boy (who will more than likely get hung out to dry), irrespective of the safety procedures put in place.
What makes matters worse is the sheer ignorace of a few on this thread that think it is ok for the 'rampers' to wear hi visibilty jackets but to not do this themselves.
Yes, this would probably not have prevented this unfortunate occurrence but surely would have held better ground if all AANS (issued by DA) been observed by the entire aircrew here in DXB.
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Land Hopper
None of your posts suggest ground ops is run as a tight ship. If I understand correctly all you are saying is ramp workers have worse working conditions than pilots. Your guys are way down the food chain, may be slightly above construction workers. What do you expect?
None of your posts suggest ground ops is run as a tight ship. If I understand correctly all you are saying is ramp workers have worse working conditions than pilots. Your guys are way down the food chain, may be slightly above construction workers. What do you expect?
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Notapilot,
To be honest, this is a response that I think that most could ever expect from from so called 'professional' aviator. Putting yourself at the top of the food chain, lol
At the end of the day, without the professional ethics of the ground teams, you wouldn't even leave the parking stand.
If I read your next argument before you state it (EK Dispatchers being in charge) pull the other one. They are nothing but a waste of space and company finance doing diddly squat and covering their behinds like the vast majority of EK minions. I could tell you stories that would make you leave your cosy chair and double check everything on the loadsheet they give you because we all know they do not reconcile what is loaded against the planned documents because they need to get an 'on time departure'
If you want to suggest that the ramp teams in DXB are effectively construction workers then I suggest you really do get out of you cocoon/bubble. That is nothing other than sheer ignorance and arrogance.
You my friend, obviously represen the 'new Dubai' person rather than those that have been here during the good old days.
Very sad indeed.
To be honest, this is a response that I think that most could ever expect from from so called 'professional' aviator. Putting yourself at the top of the food chain, lol
At the end of the day, without the professional ethics of the ground teams, you wouldn't even leave the parking stand.
If I read your next argument before you state it (EK Dispatchers being in charge) pull the other one. They are nothing but a waste of space and company finance doing diddly squat and covering their behinds like the vast majority of EK minions. I could tell you stories that would make you leave your cosy chair and double check everything on the loadsheet they give you because we all know they do not reconcile what is loaded against the planned documents because they need to get an 'on time departure'
If you want to suggest that the ramp teams in DXB are effectively construction workers then I suggest you really do get out of you cocoon/bubble. That is nothing other than sheer ignorance and arrogance.
You my friend, obviously represen the 'new Dubai' person rather than those that have been here during the good old days.
Very sad indeed.
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no matter where you are on the food chain at ek, you are worked to the limit and pushed. ANYONE sitting in an air conditioned environment, who would look down upon the ground staff and think they are just a construction worker (category/class of human), might want to walk a KM in their shoes. everyone from staff, to hospitals to physicians to vendors is treated equally by ek.
I have never seen anyone walking the ramp without reflective vest unless going from crew bus to jet is counted.
the walk around IS the most dangerous part of the job. I stay near the jet and keep my head on a swivel.
I have never seen anyone walking the ramp without reflective vest unless going from crew bus to jet is counted.
the walk around IS the most dangerous part of the job. I stay near the jet and keep my head on a swivel.
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Land Hooper, while I agree with you that some pilots can be an arrogant bunch acting like prima donnas, I have to say that from a human point of view I understand your attachment to your hard working employees and see your arguments as valid; but, from my professional point of view, I have to say that pilots are not the only ones responsible for their safety in this case as you insinuate by saying that they should always be aware and wear vests. Same applies to your ground staff as well.
If there were any real safety rules out there, the contact between the vehicle and a pilot would be highly unlikely. There should be a marked path for vehicles and a marked path for pedestrians, all together with clearly marked possible points of contact.
I would say that this is mostly management's fault again.
If there were any real safety rules out there, the contact between the vehicle and a pilot would be highly unlikely. There should be a marked path for vehicles and a marked path for pedestrians, all together with clearly marked possible points of contact.
I would say that this is mostly management's fault again.
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There should be a marked path for vehicles and a marked path for pedestrians
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Nikita,
There are pathways marked across certain areas but unfortunately this cannot be done once inside the ERA markings.
In DXB, although parking stands are standard sized and regulatory approved pretty much all other manouvring space has been removed. This means all unit to be loaded have to be staged within the ERA an reduces that room to move and operate in. Very challenging indeed.
Right now I don't see this changing as the airport is forging ahead with the remarsing of stands in Concourse C and grabbing any potential space they can find so as to be able to park another aircraft.
With the current infrastructure there is nothing that can be done to remove some of the congestion you will see on the majority of contact stands and this is something that brings about huge frustration.
All being said and done, with the amount of movement, equipment and units lying around, every individual irrespective of role needs to be fully alert of what they and those around them are doing.
Unfortunately the piece of equipment involved in this accident is probably one of the most dangerous that is operated. I know of many accidents causing serious injury to people here in DXB caused by them, not to mention the one in Switzerland late last year. They are so many blindspots when when unit is loaded on them that it is paramount that a marshaller/banksman I used when reversing etc. Another question to be asked during the investigation here.
My belief I that this more than likely did not happen.
Until these are completely removed there will always be be risk of further incidents.
There are pathways marked across certain areas but unfortunately this cannot be done once inside the ERA markings.
In DXB, although parking stands are standard sized and regulatory approved pretty much all other manouvring space has been removed. This means all unit to be loaded have to be staged within the ERA an reduces that room to move and operate in. Very challenging indeed.
Right now I don't see this changing as the airport is forging ahead with the remarsing of stands in Concourse C and grabbing any potential space they can find so as to be able to park another aircraft.
With the current infrastructure there is nothing that can be done to remove some of the congestion you will see on the majority of contact stands and this is something that brings about huge frustration.
All being said and done, with the amount of movement, equipment and units lying around, every individual irrespective of role needs to be fully alert of what they and those around them are doing.
Unfortunately the piece of equipment involved in this accident is probably one of the most dangerous that is operated. I know of many accidents causing serious injury to people here in DXB caused by them, not to mention the one in Switzerland late last year. They are so many blindspots when when unit is loaded on them that it is paramount that a marshaller/banksman I used when reversing etc. Another question to be asked during the investigation here.
My belief I that this more than likely did not happen.
Until these are completely removed there will always be be risk of further incidents.
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Short term fix is to stop spending $2.7 Billion on PR and use that money to improve conditions for current workforce and to hire more.
Now that most of the world doesn't believe about PR fluff about subsidies, accounting, safety and working conditions... $2.7 Billion going down the drain. Put it to good use.
Now that most of the world doesn't believe about PR fluff about subsidies, accounting, safety and working conditions... $2.7 Billion going down the drain. Put it to good use.
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Land Hopper
You are such a valuable new attraction to us that we don’t you to leave our Pilot’s Club, which you did enter by bluffing the security guard. We will offer you a very nice permanent place in the air-conditioned entrance hall, between the stuffed tiger and the Constellation 1/25th model.
Let’s be perfectly clear, I have nothing against ground crew and assorted truck-drivers. Some of my best friends are ground staff. Actually, with my wife we went last year in holydays to Groundstaffistan, and we only found there charming and loving people – all of them wearing orange jackets, by the way … Camels and donkeys were also dressed with them. I just wouldn’t like my daughter to marry one of them (one of the guys, not the camel)
So you don’t like people at EGHQ above and including 7th floor ? considering that 2nd floor is Costa, one is for HR (accommodation and allowances, did you hear about it ?) that doesn’t leave many options.
The way you constantly try to bring the fault to our poor fellow pilot, which according to you might not have been wearing the Hi-Vis and therefore should be blamed, is simply disgusting. By the way and seriously now, I cannot remember of any pilot, not taking his yellow jacket for the walk-around, especially in Dubai (and please don’t say “flight deck”, it’s a testimony to your background - we are pilots)
And please remember, the victim is the pilot, not the driver. It’s not enough having those idiots trying to run over us everywhere in the Dubai traffic, they are also after us on the apron !
But you just wrote that you left "the Group" ? you will be missed.
You are such a valuable new attraction to us that we don’t you to leave our Pilot’s Club, which you did enter by bluffing the security guard. We will offer you a very nice permanent place in the air-conditioned entrance hall, between the stuffed tiger and the Constellation 1/25th model.
Let’s be perfectly clear, I have nothing against ground crew and assorted truck-drivers. Some of my best friends are ground staff. Actually, with my wife we went last year in holydays to Groundstaffistan, and we only found there charming and loving people – all of them wearing orange jackets, by the way … Camels and donkeys were also dressed with them. I just wouldn’t like my daughter to marry one of them (one of the guys, not the camel)
So you don’t like people at EGHQ above and including 7th floor ? considering that 2nd floor is Costa, one is for HR (accommodation and allowances, did you hear about it ?) that doesn’t leave many options.
The way you constantly try to bring the fault to our poor fellow pilot, which according to you might not have been wearing the Hi-Vis and therefore should be blamed, is simply disgusting. By the way and seriously now, I cannot remember of any pilot, not taking his yellow jacket for the walk-around, especially in Dubai (and please don’t say “flight deck”, it’s a testimony to your background - we are pilots)
And please remember, the victim is the pilot, not the driver. It’s not enough having those idiots trying to run over us everywhere in the Dubai traffic, they are also after us on the apron !
But you just wrote that you left "the Group" ? you will be missed.
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Ah Kobus,
So nice to hear from you again.
I just love the way that you patronise by using your amazing sarcasm. I guess that brings truth to the saying that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
It truly does show yourself in your true colours in the constant diatribe and insults you continue to hurl at those not in the cockpit along with what seems to be your belief that anyone other than than pilot is just not worthy.
Fortunately, I am not here to throw insults or get further involved in your petty games.
If you read properly and try to understand my original post you will see that I was not apportioning blame to anyone, merely stating that the ramp is very hazardous area to be in. I was also just asking a very simple question that I am damn sure would get asked during the investigation process.
You may not have seen 'pilots' doing their walk round without wearing a hi visibilty vest but I have seen too many to mention. This is not a jibe at this group of people because there were and still probably are numbers of Engineers, Dispatchers and ground team that do the same. It isn't the definitive answer to this sad accident either.
It would normally be a formality to confirm the above through checking CCTV but experience of this tells me that there is a high probability of the cameras either not working or facing in the wrong direction.
The simple fact remains, in highly congested and busy areas everyone needs to keep their wits about them.
I repeat that until the particular pieces of equipment that were involved in this accident are removed from the operation in their entirety then I fear that there could well be more occurrences.
Yes , I did recently leave the group and have many reasons for doing so, including actually doing something about what frustrated and irritated me rather than just whining and bitching about conditions and treatment. However, I still have many close friends within the Group and I will always keep a close eye and ear out for what is going on.
Finally, has anybody heard an update on the individual hurt in this accident? It all seems to have gone quiet.
I have heard little but again, what I have heard has not been officially confirmed and as such I would not want to publish that here right now.
So nice to hear from you again.
I just love the way that you patronise by using your amazing sarcasm. I guess that brings truth to the saying that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
It truly does show yourself in your true colours in the constant diatribe and insults you continue to hurl at those not in the cockpit along with what seems to be your belief that anyone other than than pilot is just not worthy.
Fortunately, I am not here to throw insults or get further involved in your petty games.
If you read properly and try to understand my original post you will see that I was not apportioning blame to anyone, merely stating that the ramp is very hazardous area to be in. I was also just asking a very simple question that I am damn sure would get asked during the investigation process.
You may not have seen 'pilots' doing their walk round without wearing a hi visibilty vest but I have seen too many to mention. This is not a jibe at this group of people because there were and still probably are numbers of Engineers, Dispatchers and ground team that do the same. It isn't the definitive answer to this sad accident either.
It would normally be a formality to confirm the above through checking CCTV but experience of this tells me that there is a high probability of the cameras either not working or facing in the wrong direction.
The simple fact remains, in highly congested and busy areas everyone needs to keep their wits about them.
I repeat that until the particular pieces of equipment that were involved in this accident are removed from the operation in their entirety then I fear that there could well be more occurrences.
Yes , I did recently leave the group and have many reasons for doing so, including actually doing something about what frustrated and irritated me rather than just whining and bitching about conditions and treatment. However, I still have many close friends within the Group and I will always keep a close eye and ear out for what is going on.
Finally, has anybody heard an update on the individual hurt in this accident? It all seems to have gone quiet.
I have heard little but again, what I have heard has not been officially confirmed and as such I would not want to publish that here right now.
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At the end of the day, without the professional ethics of the ground teams, you wouldn't even leave the parking stand.
If I read your next argument before you state it (EK Dispatchers being in charge) pull the other one. They are nothing but a waste of space and company finance doing diddly squat and covering their behinds like the vast majority of EK minions. I could tell you stories that would make you leave your cosy chair and double check everything on the loadsheet they give you because we all know they do not reconcile what is loaded against the planned documents because they need to get an 'on time departure'
Notapilot, Nikita and the rest, why are you wasting your time with land Hopper?
In one line he is saying that he and his "team" have "professional ethics" and in the next he is telling you that, he and his team are letting planes that are not legal to fly, fly with their full knowledge, just to get an on-time departure, funny, how Land Hopper is trying to get us on his side by blaming the dispatchers.
Land Hopper, you can kiss my cozy couch sitting ass.
If I read your next argument before you state it (EK Dispatchers being in charge) pull the other one. They are nothing but a waste of space and company finance doing diddly squat and covering their behinds like the vast majority of EK minions. I could tell you stories that would make you leave your cosy chair and double check everything on the loadsheet they give you because we all know they do not reconcile what is loaded against the planned documents because they need to get an 'on time departure'
Notapilot, Nikita and the rest, why are you wasting your time with land Hopper?
In one line he is saying that he and his "team" have "professional ethics" and in the next he is telling you that, he and his team are letting planes that are not legal to fly, fly with their full knowledge, just to get an on-time departure, funny, how Land Hopper is trying to get us on his side by blaming the dispatchers.
Land Hopper, you can kiss my cozy couch sitting ass.