Pilots' fatigue investigation
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Why do people think that fatigue is caused by crossing multiple time zones????
The reasons we are fatigued our both the companies fault and sometimes the crews fault.
How many times do you get to a destination where the local time is 6pm and the time in dubai is 4 am and people are "meeting downstairs in an hour to go for dinner"
Why do people insist on trying to acclimatise to a new time zone within the time we spend there???? Staying on Dubai time will help alleviate some of the fatigue.
The reason from the companies side are more. They state in the OMA section 7.2
"The avoidance of the scheduling rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours especially after long flights across many time zones"
What a crock of ****e this statement is, If they actually did that then the fatigue issues could be reduced as well. I would be spending less time sitting in an aircraft between the hours of 10pm and 6am, this is the fatiguing thing for me, not the crossing of time zones, Give me more time to rest between flights, give me more time at home to rest between flights, dont give me shared rest days. Your body does not rest between the hours of 8am and 6pm the same as it does during the times between 6pm and 4am, done treat it like it does. Dont treat this job as if its an office job, or if you want to then roster the office staff the same as me, lets see how long they last. Give me at least 2 periods a month with 4 or 5 days off in a row, dont roster me up the maximum because its just a hair on the side of legal. Do you drive your car at the rev limiter all the time, no, because there will be consequences. Fly your pilots at the limiter all the time and there will be consequences. Dont factor my flying, trying to rest inside an aircraft which is noisy and quite often experiencing turbulence is not normal rest and should not be treated as such. Include my days in the sim and doing groundschool towards my limits, why is this not included??????? you think spending 8 hours in a classroom or 4 hours in the sim does not contribute to overall fatigue. Dont roster me for 60 hours of flying in a 2 week period because I have 2 weeks of leave.........
All the above just goes to prove that its definitely schedule first and by no means safety.
J
The reasons we are fatigued our both the companies fault and sometimes the crews fault.
How many times do you get to a destination where the local time is 6pm and the time in dubai is 4 am and people are "meeting downstairs in an hour to go for dinner"
Why do people insist on trying to acclimatise to a new time zone within the time we spend there???? Staying on Dubai time will help alleviate some of the fatigue.
The reason from the companies side are more. They state in the OMA section 7.2
"The avoidance of the scheduling rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours especially after long flights across many time zones"
What a crock of ****e this statement is, If they actually did that then the fatigue issues could be reduced as well. I would be spending less time sitting in an aircraft between the hours of 10pm and 6am, this is the fatiguing thing for me, not the crossing of time zones, Give me more time to rest between flights, give me more time at home to rest between flights, dont give me shared rest days. Your body does not rest between the hours of 8am and 6pm the same as it does during the times between 6pm and 4am, done treat it like it does. Dont treat this job as if its an office job, or if you want to then roster the office staff the same as me, lets see how long they last. Give me at least 2 periods a month with 4 or 5 days off in a row, dont roster me up the maximum because its just a hair on the side of legal. Do you drive your car at the rev limiter all the time, no, because there will be consequences. Fly your pilots at the limiter all the time and there will be consequences. Dont factor my flying, trying to rest inside an aircraft which is noisy and quite often experiencing turbulence is not normal rest and should not be treated as such. Include my days in the sim and doing groundschool towards my limits, why is this not included??????? you think spending 8 hours in a classroom or 4 hours in the sim does not contribute to overall fatigue. Dont roster me for 60 hours of flying in a 2 week period because I have 2 weeks of leave.........
All the above just goes to prove that its definitely schedule first and by no means safety.
J
Last edited by JAYTO; 28th Mar 2016 at 07:55.
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I heard a great comment on the Fragrant Harbour forum on this matter.
It went something along the lines of 'If we continually get told that our rosters are legal, even though they are fatiguing, perhaps we should apply the same principle to the way we operate the company airplanes. Gear down at limit speed minus 1 knot on every sector, take flaps at limit speeds minus 1 knot etc. After all, it is within limits, and perfectly legal.'
It goes without saying that the professionalism of the vast majority of us would prevent this from ever happening of course. But it would not be difficult to argue that crews have more concern for the well being of company airplanes than the company has for the well being of it's crews.
It went something along the lines of 'If we continually get told that our rosters are legal, even though they are fatiguing, perhaps we should apply the same principle to the way we operate the company airplanes. Gear down at limit speed minus 1 knot on every sector, take flaps at limit speeds minus 1 knot etc. After all, it is within limits, and perfectly legal.'
It goes without saying that the professionalism of the vast majority of us would prevent this from ever happening of course. But it would not be difficult to argue that crews have more concern for the well being of company airplanes than the company has for the well being of it's crews.
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Bluelearjetdriver - great analogy! Love it!!
BANANASBANANAS - That sounds like a very good argument to put to the powers that be. That's economic language that they might comprehend.
BANANASBANANAS - That sounds like a very good argument to put to the powers that be. That's economic language that they might comprehend.
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Chipotle
I can see that you have no clue about the region you are flying in. maybe you do not know that all airlines in Saudi Arabia have FAA rules.
I have my doubts about what you claim that you have flown( flying 6 sectors and was very normal for you) sounds like a cowboy here.especially when you get 10 hours minimum rest to start again.
I love it, I am in the management. interesting. very smart observation. well I have a short answer for you NO.
And yes, you are right about my experience. it is not 30 years, it is actually 34 airline years.
I can see that you have no clue about the region you are flying in. maybe you do not know that all airlines in Saudi Arabia have FAA rules.
I have my doubts about what you claim that you have flown( flying 6 sectors and was very normal for you) sounds like a cowboy here.especially when you get 10 hours minimum rest to start again.
I love it, I am in the management. interesting. very smart observation. well I have a short answer for you NO.
And yes, you are right about my experience. it is not 30 years, it is actually 34 airline years.
This is a middle eastern forum discussing the legal limits and fatigue of us that are operating under the GCAA. You finally clarified you're operating under FAA 117 rules in Saudi... I'm sorry but double check your English proficiency and maybe try and post on a different thread before you try and hijack this one.
My friends back in the US love the new rules. And if they are fatigued, there is no backlash AND they are pay protected. I assumed you meant you were flying in the US because your initial post mentioned "American" work rules. But, unfortunately "work rules" and our region don't go hand in hand.
34 years eh? Congratulations?
Last edited by CaptainChipotle; 28th Mar 2016 at 11:47.
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Chipotle
Exactly, new friend,
I take it, calling yourself Captain, that you are actually a Captain, well I hope SO.
Middle East is not only the UAE. So better make another forum and call it UAE.
I have no clue how did you gather from me saying that I asked management to fly the roster or the planner to sit in the jump seat that I am in the management. Well, let us blame this reasoning on Fatigue.
( In sorry but double check your English proficiency) Sounds like perfect English.
Good luck to you and your friend in the US.
Exactly, new friend,
I take it, calling yourself Captain, that you are actually a Captain, well I hope SO.
Middle East is not only the UAE. So better make another forum and call it UAE.
I have no clue how did you gather from me saying that I asked management to fly the roster or the planner to sit in the jump seat that I am in the management. Well, let us blame this reasoning on Fatigue.
( In sorry but double check your English proficiency) Sounds like perfect English.
Good luck to you and your friend in the US.
Last edited by tarik123; 28th Mar 2016 at 18:53.
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Tarik, if you were doing 90 hrs and 70 sectors a month, then you can't have been crossing many time zones. Your retorts don't stack up. I can't comment on the FAA regs as I don't know them; 10hr min rest is not enough, especially if the preceding duty exceeded that, but that is a separate debate to anything related to EK.
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How many EK/FZ flights get cancelled in a year because crew reached FDTLs. Even at airlines with light schedules flights do get cancelled.
These being such tightly run ships, statistically there should be more cancellations. There aren't any standby crew sitting around to cover.
These being such tightly run ships, statistically there should be more cancellations. There aren't any standby crew sitting around to cover.
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Why do people think that fatigue is caused by crossing multiple time zones????
The reasons we are fatigued our both the companies fault and sometimes the crews fault.
How many times do you get to a destination where the local time is 6pm and the time in dubai is 4 am and people are "meeting downstairs in an hour to go for dinner"
Why do people insist on trying to acclimatise to a new time zone within the time we spend there???? Staying on Dubai time will help alleviate some of the fatigue.
The reason from the companies side are more. They state in the OMA section 7.2
"The avoidance of the scheduling rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours especially after long flights across many time zones"
The reasons we are fatigued our both the companies fault and sometimes the crews fault.
How many times do you get to a destination where the local time is 6pm and the time in dubai is 4 am and people are "meeting downstairs in an hour to go for dinner"
Why do people insist on trying to acclimatise to a new time zone within the time we spend there???? Staying on Dubai time will help alleviate some of the fatigue.
The reason from the companies side are more. They state in the OMA section 7.2
"The avoidance of the scheduling rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours especially after long flights across many time zones"
18-30hrs - depends on which schedule. Day - Night agreed. Night-Day 18-30hrs is a different discussion - this allows 2 sleeps
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At last some common sense. Stay on DXB time, crews are whining about short layovers. Yes depending on where it is this takes a lot of determination.
18-30hrs - depends on which schedule. Day - Night agreed. Night-Day 18-30hrs is a different discussion - this allows 2 sleeps
18-30hrs - depends on which schedule. Day - Night agreed. Night-Day 18-30hrs is a different discussion - this allows 2 sleeps
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In the example above, how does going to bed at 4am DXB time help you stay on Dubai time? I'd much prefer to stay on Dubai time if possible but a lot of the time it simply isn't.
short flights long nights
And if you go. To bed at 4.00 am DXB time, I assume you will wake up in a few hours wanting breakfast .....but the resturant is closed or serving the night menu .......
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Turkish Airlines narrow body left seat flying over 100 hours per month..loads on night flying..many premature deaths ( hearth attacks mainly). Many close calls..next big one waiting to happen.
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Many close calls..next big one waiting to happen.
Whatever did happen to that A320 in IST by the way? That was really close to making a smoking hole in the ground. Respect to Airbus, that aircraft held together through quite a lot of damage.
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tired and fatigued are two different animals...a person may not "feel" tired, and in fact be coming off of a good night's sleep, however, the cumulative effects of fatigue may very well be present, and clouding that person's judgement when he/she is called upon to operate in challenging conditions...
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SOPS be prepared bring your own to tide you by. By staying in your local TZ in some cases it allows you to start the recovery period in company time iso yours at home. Takes dedication but you'll find this is happening out there - that's why in some 18-30hr rest periods are good e.g night to day.
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