Pilots' fatigue investigation
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Individual never wins.
Will people ever learn that their individual happiness depends on happiness of many? It's a network and a circle of (positive and negative) energy. If you want to be happy you have to make other people happy. Otherwise, you will find yourself being a manager in some huge, ****ty company, making a lot of money, having power over people and everything you ever wanted, but you will still be miserable (and that will reflect on your employees and you will think in "bitch" terms instead of doing your job) and you will not know why. That's why an individual has to win sometimes. And that is why every each one of us should be that individual.
I rest my case on this topic and apologize to everyone who found my words offensive.
D.
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Notapilot15, I was starting to wonder the same thing, nikita81 always seems to deflect attention away from the original subject and makes it all about her, something doesn't seem right here. Either nikita81 is damaged goods (mental) or is some sort of management pleasing troll. The thread is about pilot fatigue...
Last edited by Fromagio; 19th Apr 2016 at 03:45.
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Nikita, Your points and emotions are very valid, but you have to keep in mind you may be dealing with someone (working for a PR firm) whose job is to make sure such discussions doesn't exist/survive.
Some one posted few days back "Silence can be bought".
Some one posted few days back "Silence can be bought".
The devil is in the rules.
One must be acclimatised prior to operating a ULR flight.
Acclimatised = three local nights.
One remains acclimatised as long as you don't stray outside two hours difference of your current time zone.
Not so long ago l was acclimatised in the first week of the month.
I then operated two back-of-the-clock turns followed by one day off.
Then l was on ULR standby from midnight.
Then operated ULR (16:50) departing 2am.
Crewing agreed when l complained that this rostering is bullsh!t. "But it's legal Captain."
When l got back to DXB, l was stuffed.
Then had three weeks sick to get over it. Thats another story.
So they can roster this sh!t, but if you breach the acclimatised ruling following leave you get toasted (from what l hear)?
halas
One must be acclimatised prior to operating a ULR flight.
Acclimatised = three local nights.
One remains acclimatised as long as you don't stray outside two hours difference of your current time zone.
Not so long ago l was acclimatised in the first week of the month.
I then operated two back-of-the-clock turns followed by one day off.
Then l was on ULR standby from midnight.
Then operated ULR (16:50) departing 2am.
Crewing agreed when l complained that this rostering is bullsh!t. "But it's legal Captain."
When l got back to DXB, l was stuffed.
Then had three weeks sick to get over it. Thats another story.
So they can roster this sh!t, but if you breach the acclimatised ruling following leave you get toasted (from what l hear)?
halas
Last edited by halas; 19th Apr 2016 at 09:37.
short flights long nights
I could never figure out why you did not have to be acclimatised before operating the ULR flight back to Dubai.
If you need three local night before going outbound, why not three local nights before coming inbound?
If you need three local night before going outbound, why not three local nights before coming inbound?
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where are the rules by which UAE airlines follow, written? Name, Date, version
the reason I ask, is what I have seen written down, in what I think is official, does not match what is in OMA.
Just asking for clarification.....if it could possibly be clear.
the reason I ask, is what I have seen written down, in what I think is official, does not match what is in OMA.
Just asking for clarification.....if it could possibly be clear.
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All the regs are at:
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/epublication/pages/cars.aspx
The limit on flight hours is as follows (Issue 4, Rev 1 at 1 Jan 16)
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/epublication/pages/cars.aspx
The limit on flight hours is as follows (Issue 4, Rev 1 at 1 Jan 16)
CAR‐OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Time and Duty Period
a. No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;
(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or
(2) during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:
b. The maximum cumulative duty hours for Flight crew of an aeroplane shall not exceed;
(1) 55 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 60 hours, when rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to unforeseen delays.
(2) 95 hours in any any 14 consecutive days; and
(3) 190 hours in any any 28 consecutive days.
a. No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;
(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or
(2) during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:
b. The maximum cumulative duty hours for Flight crew of an aeroplane shall not exceed;
(1) 55 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 60 hours, when rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to unforeseen delays.
(2) 95 hours in any any 14 consecutive days; and
(3) 190 hours in any any 28 consecutive days.
So it GCAA regs clearly say BLOCK hours not Stick hours, the portal lists only the block hour total.
So, does this mean we are in breach of the regs. (I have done over 990 hrs BLOCK) in the last 12 calendar months.
So, does this mean we are in breach of the regs. (I have done over 990 hrs BLOCK) in the last 12 calendar months.
Ok so I just found this in the OMA 7-20
So my question is? How can the EK regs be more relaxed then than the GCAA regs?
Note:
The accumulated flight time for any consecutive 12 month period must not exceed 900 hours at midnight local time of the last day of the last calendar month of the 12 month period.
Flying hours credited to augmenting crew members for the purposes of calculating the absolute limits on flying hours (for both 100 hours in 28 days and the 900 hours for any consecutive 12 month period) will be based on the actual time in an operating seat, as recorded by the Voyage Report.
The accumulated flight time for any consecutive 12 month period must not exceed 900 hours at midnight local time of the last day of the last calendar month of the 12 month period.
Flying hours credited to augmenting crew members for the purposes of calculating the absolute limits on flying hours (for both 100 hours in 28 days and the 900 hours for any consecutive 12 month period) will be based on the actual time in an operating seat, as recorded by the Voyage Report.
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Variations
In the past when Fleet have been questioned about discrepancies between our FTL and CAR OPS, the answer was always; 'The GCAA authorise and stamp our Manuals including the OMA therefore it is GCAA approved'
I would love to hear that answer at in a Western Court of Law.
However, looking at the GCAA website, they have written;
"CAR–OPS 1.1120 Standard provisions applicable to a scheme
(a) Subject to the maxima and minima specified in this subpart, it is incumbent on the operator to
establish maximum FDPs and minimum rest periods appropriate to the nature of flight
operations undertaken.
(b) An operator of an aircraft shall have a scheme for the regulation of flight and duty times of
crews. The scheme shall be approved by the Authority and be included in the Operations Manual
for the benefit of all crew members and the staff concerned with the preparation and day to day
management of rostering and scheduling.
(c) Although operators must plan their schemes in accordance with the requirements, it is
recognised that the standard provisions will not necessarily satisfy every type of operation. In
these circumstances operators may apply for FTL Variation to the standard provisions at least 30
days, or as otherwise agreed, before the date of the intended operation.. Consideration will only
be given where an operator can show that any proposal will ensure a better or equivalent level
of protection against fatigue than the basic requirements.
(d) Approval of FTL Variation by GCAA:
The GCAA may grant variations to the FTL requirements contained in this Subpart provided the
operator demonstrates to the GCAA, on the basis of a risk assessment, that an equivalent level of
safety is ensured. GCAA may impose additional requirements prior to the approval of the variations
to the prescriptive scheme.. A validation flight may be conducted by the GCAA before or after the
issuance of each route FTL variation scheme.
Note: Any existing approved Flight Time Variation to the prescriptive scheme shall remain in force until the
time a re‐assessment is required. Such re‐assessment shall be conducted considering the AMC or GM
to 1.1120(d)."
You will note we have 3 Variations, the third relating to ULR flights. This Variation basically negates the whole FTL chapter and its requirements.
So long as the GCAA rubber stamp the OMA the Chapter 7 is binding.
Not so long ago an amendment removed the requirement of inclusion of 30minutes post flight duties for Flight Crew. It was still there for the Cabin Crew. Presumably a simple typo. But Crewing and VPNC took advantage straight away, counting the following day as a day off so long as you were on Chocks by 2359. You will still see the evidence of this in some of our schedules finishing at 2359. The OMA was later corrected and the paragraph returned.
I personally have very little faith in the Regulators oversight of our FTL and many other important safety related policies. This is a case where I think the tail often wags the dog!
I think for the most part Emirates and possibly Etihad tell the GCAA how things will be, not the other way around.
I would love to hear that answer at in a Western Court of Law.
However, looking at the GCAA website, they have written;
"CAR–OPS 1.1120 Standard provisions applicable to a scheme
(a) Subject to the maxima and minima specified in this subpart, it is incumbent on the operator to
establish maximum FDPs and minimum rest periods appropriate to the nature of flight
operations undertaken.
(b) An operator of an aircraft shall have a scheme for the regulation of flight and duty times of
crews. The scheme shall be approved by the Authority and be included in the Operations Manual
for the benefit of all crew members and the staff concerned with the preparation and day to day
management of rostering and scheduling.
(c) Although operators must plan their schemes in accordance with the requirements, it is
recognised that the standard provisions will not necessarily satisfy every type of operation. In
these circumstances operators may apply for FTL Variation to the standard provisions at least 30
days, or as otherwise agreed, before the date of the intended operation.. Consideration will only
be given where an operator can show that any proposal will ensure a better or equivalent level
of protection against fatigue than the basic requirements.
(d) Approval of FTL Variation by GCAA:
The GCAA may grant variations to the FTL requirements contained in this Subpart provided the
operator demonstrates to the GCAA, on the basis of a risk assessment, that an equivalent level of
safety is ensured. GCAA may impose additional requirements prior to the approval of the variations
to the prescriptive scheme.. A validation flight may be conducted by the GCAA before or after the
issuance of each route FTL variation scheme.
Note: Any existing approved Flight Time Variation to the prescriptive scheme shall remain in force until the
time a re‐assessment is required. Such re‐assessment shall be conducted considering the AMC or GM
to 1.1120(d)."
You will note we have 3 Variations, the third relating to ULR flights. This Variation basically negates the whole FTL chapter and its requirements.
So long as the GCAA rubber stamp the OMA the Chapter 7 is binding.
Not so long ago an amendment removed the requirement of inclusion of 30minutes post flight duties for Flight Crew. It was still there for the Cabin Crew. Presumably a simple typo. But Crewing and VPNC took advantage straight away, counting the following day as a day off so long as you were on Chocks by 2359. You will still see the evidence of this in some of our schedules finishing at 2359. The OMA was later corrected and the paragraph returned.
I personally have very little faith in the Regulators oversight of our FTL and many other important safety related policies. This is a case where I think the tail often wags the dog!
I think for the most part Emirates and possibly Etihad tell the GCAA how things will be, not the other way around.
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It changed from flight time to block hours at the start of the year to remove doubt.
Airlines using Cruise Relief P3 (Cathay etc) pilots will be familiar with the reduced flying hours for license experience requirements, off the top of my head for issuing an ATPL you could claim 50% of the flying hours towards your license but were still limited by block hours for annual limits, pay, fatigue etc.
Airlines using Cruise Relief P3 (Cathay etc) pilots will be familiar with the reduced flying hours for license experience requirements, off the top of my head for issuing an ATPL you could claim 50% of the flying hours towards your license but were still limited by block hours for annual limits, pay, fatigue etc.
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So more info on the issue:
https://www.rt.com/news/340415-flydu...gation-russia/
http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/19b...FDN%20(en).pdf
https://www.rt.com/news/340415-flydu...gation-russia/
http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/19b...FDN%20(en).pdf
Last edited by Talparc; 21st Apr 2016 at 19:54.
