EK - AAR meeting, sensible points to make.
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Between 2000 and 2005 there was a massive influx of pilots at EK. Most of them are reaching the 15y service and 50y old mark. A lot of them have started their exit plans. The nr of pilots leaving will only increase in the years to come. If they would like that experience to stay a bit longer there are two things they need to start working on:
Part time work and reverse rostering to outstation of choice, preferably a combination of both? It's a win win option if they work out the nrs. Free up accomodation, save money and happier pilots.....
It's ok to dream.....
Part time work and reverse rostering to outstation of choice, preferably a combination of both? It's a win win option if they work out the nrs. Free up accomodation, save money and happier pilots.....
It's ok to dream.....
Join Date: Mar 2010
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A bigger deposit in my account is something I can see, everything else they offer will be smoke and mirrors. Since they are far less than trustworthy, hollow promises won't cut it for me. This time next year the discussion will be the same.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Can someone ask for the profit share target to become a rolling profit share target with the limit of 12 months removed.
Therefore once the amount is reachd, something is shared.
Therefore once the amount is reachd, something is shared.
Join Date: Sep 2011
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The logic is striking:
Too many left, even more are leaving and not enough coming. This leaves the remaining work even harder and incite them to throw in the towel even faster (my case).
They can't ease up on the workload unless they would have to park even more metal on the Sharjah side. Debts and incredible greed, as well as loss of face make this unrealistic. Only recent and tragic events might force some relief upon us.
They can try to throw money at us, to lure us into staying/coming, but again, incredible greed and a vindictive attitude against pilots is a major inhibitor, so don't hold your breath. But at least a substantial increase on all fronts should be on the table simply to make up what they have stolen from us so far.
Reverse rostering would be an interesting incentive, however it might prove challenging for certain destinations, for good and for bad, and the attribution might sparks some ugly battles. I don't give it a chance.
As a short term carrot, i would suggest an increase in ALT/ELT and some cheap, bookable friends tickets for our relatives and friends to come and visit us (bookable more than 3 months in advance and with a healthy contingent). This represents a tiny cost for them and would give us some relief for not getting leave, as with the pathetic rostering standby travel is impossible.
Any babble about intentions to do this and that, any hollow promise that they plan to implement improvements for this and that, that they have already instructed internal Costa-Squatters to apply this and that will fall on deaf ears, because we all perfectly know that it's smoke and mirrors for the greatest part and that implementation will take longer than the decay rate of staying of 90% of us.
Thus NO ONE is interested in any dribble from AAR or other managers.
Too many left, even more are leaving and not enough coming. This leaves the remaining work even harder and incite them to throw in the towel even faster (my case).
They can't ease up on the workload unless they would have to park even more metal on the Sharjah side. Debts and incredible greed, as well as loss of face make this unrealistic. Only recent and tragic events might force some relief upon us.
They can try to throw money at us, to lure us into staying/coming, but again, incredible greed and a vindictive attitude against pilots is a major inhibitor, so don't hold your breath. But at least a substantial increase on all fronts should be on the table simply to make up what they have stolen from us so far.
Reverse rostering would be an interesting incentive, however it might prove challenging for certain destinations, for good and for bad, and the attribution might sparks some ugly battles. I don't give it a chance.
As a short term carrot, i would suggest an increase in ALT/ELT and some cheap, bookable friends tickets for our relatives and friends to come and visit us (bookable more than 3 months in advance and with a healthy contingent). This represents a tiny cost for them and would give us some relief for not getting leave, as with the pathetic rostering standby travel is impossible.
Any babble about intentions to do this and that, any hollow promise that they plan to implement improvements for this and that, that they have already instructed internal Costa-Squatters to apply this and that will fall on deaf ears, because we all perfectly know that it's smoke and mirrors for the greatest part and that implementation will take longer than the decay rate of staying of 90% of us.
Thus NO ONE is interested in any dribble from AAR or other managers.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the State of Perpetual Confusion
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I left 4 1/2 years ago when they began stealing leave. I've had no regrets but as I'm posting here, I'm obviously still interested in the ongoing soap opera (a lot of very close friends are still at EK). I've asked myself, what would it take to get me to consider returning - perhaps a bigger hurdle than recruiting newbies as I'm quite familiar with cynical lying and cheating that have become SOP with EK management.
1. To fix the rostering and get it to something reasonable (long haul rosters really shouldn't average more than 76 hours a month with more being only used for exceptional circumstances) it's going to take BIG BUCKS to attract and retain the numbers they need to staff the expanding fleet to a reasonable monthly roster.
2. Leave: the main reason I left in the first place. If the contract says 42 days, then IT'S 42 DAYS! In just about any other civilized country, they would be dragged into court with no chance of winning for what has become routine and at least 1 block of leave MUST BE at least 28/30 days. It's an expat airline and everyone deserves enough time to get back to their home country for an extended rest. Again, this is going to impinge on manpower so back to point 1.
3. A change in management ethos. The attitude that crew are "lemons to be squeezed" until they are used up and that "if you don't like it - leave" has got to end. While this is most important for retention or for someone considering returning, the word is out on EK and there's just not enough people who would consider going there if they don't have to. For this to happen, it would take 2 people to stand up and acknowledge their part in making this mess, AAR and TC (I refuse to add the "S". IMO he deserves a lot of the blame for this mess. A micromanager like him can't claim he didn't know what was going on. He deserves much of the credit for what EK has done well but also much of the blame for the mess made since he took over.). I honestly don't see much chance of this happening.
Things like extra ALT's would be nice but are band aids on a gaping wound. Crap like bumping people on their ALT's would be fixed with point 3. When it started happening under SMF's watch, he fixed it right away. If I sound a little bitter, it's because I went to EK with the plan of staying until retirement. My life since leaving is infinitely better than my last few years there but it hasn't been without significant difficulties that could have been avoided but for the greed and dishonesty that has become commonplace.
Unfortunately, it appears to me that with Dubai once again in silly mode (how much is that stupid canal through Jumeira costing them?), and with EK as their only cash cow, their hands may be effectively tied anyway.
1. To fix the rostering and get it to something reasonable (long haul rosters really shouldn't average more than 76 hours a month with more being only used for exceptional circumstances) it's going to take BIG BUCKS to attract and retain the numbers they need to staff the expanding fleet to a reasonable monthly roster.
2. Leave: the main reason I left in the first place. If the contract says 42 days, then IT'S 42 DAYS! In just about any other civilized country, they would be dragged into court with no chance of winning for what has become routine and at least 1 block of leave MUST BE at least 28/30 days. It's an expat airline and everyone deserves enough time to get back to their home country for an extended rest. Again, this is going to impinge on manpower so back to point 1.
3. A change in management ethos. The attitude that crew are "lemons to be squeezed" until they are used up and that "if you don't like it - leave" has got to end. While this is most important for retention or for someone considering returning, the word is out on EK and there's just not enough people who would consider going there if they don't have to. For this to happen, it would take 2 people to stand up and acknowledge their part in making this mess, AAR and TC (I refuse to add the "S". IMO he deserves a lot of the blame for this mess. A micromanager like him can't claim he didn't know what was going on. He deserves much of the credit for what EK has done well but also much of the blame for the mess made since he took over.). I honestly don't see much chance of this happening.
Things like extra ALT's would be nice but are band aids on a gaping wound. Crap like bumping people on their ALT's would be fixed with point 3. When it started happening under SMF's watch, he fixed it right away. If I sound a little bitter, it's because I went to EK with the plan of staying until retirement. My life since leaving is infinitely better than my last few years there but it hasn't been without significant difficulties that could have been avoided but for the greed and dishonesty that has become commonplace.
Unfortunately, it appears to me that with Dubai once again in silly mode (how much is that stupid canal through Jumeira costing them?), and with EK as their only cash cow, their hands may be effectively tied anyway.
Last edited by Gillegan; 21st Mar 2016 at 19:25.
Join Date: Dec 2011
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- 75/80 hours maximum, with credit for leave, sim and all training days, and look at fatigue issues.
- Bidding system with many more choices than 5.
- 42 days (no less and as per contract) leave a year.
- Salary increase, but the main thing is a major increase in the productivity hourly rate.
- Better medical benefits, school allowance, ALT/ELT/other tickets, accomodation, etc...
- Overall change of attitude towards staff.
One can dream.....
- Bidding system with many more choices than 5.
- 42 days (no less and as per contract) leave a year.
- Salary increase, but the main thing is a major increase in the productivity hourly rate.
- Better medical benefits, school allowance, ALT/ELT/other tickets, accomodation, etc...
- Overall change of attitude towards staff.
One can dream.....
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dubai
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A voice
All the points that are being made are valid, but... What we really need is a voice.
The pilots need an association that can present valid and pertinent information about the needs of the pilot group to management in a coherent and ordered manner. Of course, I'm well aware that unions are not legal here, but this would not be a union, it would be a collective channel that could present the opinions of the majority to the company in a constructive way.
Here we are trying to tell a bunch of un-named select few what we want through an anonymous and limited forum that most don't read anyway. But what one person wants may not be in line with what the majority wants. A pilot association could colate opinions and ideas and present them to the company in an unbiased way. The company would hear the views of the pilots without one or two individuals having to stick their necks out. Once a proper channel is established the true issues can be addressed in a far more meaningful way as the company would know that the opinions presented represent the views of the majority. Not only this, but the company would have to pay attention because they would be aware that we are all aware of what they are being told rather than the current situation where we aren't invited to the meeting and don't know exactly what is being discussed. Why should my job conditions be affected by a secret meeting that I'm not invited to and haven't even been asked what is important to me?
We are not going to have a chance to have meetings like this very often... Ask for what will allow us to address our issues on an ongoing basis rather than just this one-off stab in the dark. We need to set up a collective voice for the pilot group. And then... we can address the real issues.
The pilots need an association that can present valid and pertinent information about the needs of the pilot group to management in a coherent and ordered manner. Of course, I'm well aware that unions are not legal here, but this would not be a union, it would be a collective channel that could present the opinions of the majority to the company in a constructive way.
Here we are trying to tell a bunch of un-named select few what we want through an anonymous and limited forum that most don't read anyway. But what one person wants may not be in line with what the majority wants. A pilot association could colate opinions and ideas and present them to the company in an unbiased way. The company would hear the views of the pilots without one or two individuals having to stick their necks out. Once a proper channel is established the true issues can be addressed in a far more meaningful way as the company would know that the opinions presented represent the views of the majority. Not only this, but the company would have to pay attention because they would be aware that we are all aware of what they are being told rather than the current situation where we aren't invited to the meeting and don't know exactly what is being discussed. Why should my job conditions be affected by a secret meeting that I'm not invited to and haven't even been asked what is important to me?
We are not going to have a chance to have meetings like this very often... Ask for what will allow us to address our issues on an ongoing basis rather than just this one-off stab in the dark. We need to set up a collective voice for the pilot group. And then... we can address the real issues.
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Great post, your on the right track IMHO. I've worked in countries where Unions are strictly forbidden but also experienced first hand how a pilot "Association" has been able to support the pilot body successfully. Best of luck guys.
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Setting up a union or association? A naive suggestion. No chance: even when the EPC/APC was being formed it took quite a bit of convincing the powers that be that it wasn't a front for a union...
