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FZ 981 crashes in Rostov on Don Russia

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FZ 981 crashes in Rostov on Don Russia

Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:18
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
Whoops, looks like someone has let the genie out of the bottle.
This could get nasty if other news channels jump on this train.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:20
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I bet you they don't.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:52
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
I bet you they don't.
EK 407 jumps into my mind.....
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 13:56
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i was on duty that day when crash happened and i couldnt believe my eyes what i read from news. Fly dubai was our client in turkey we were representative company on behalf of fly dubai in turkey and maybe that crew how many time came turkey. It's really hard to accept that.

RIP for all of them.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 14:10
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It seems that the publishing of the Flydubai roster for next month is delayed...
Could it be related to the fatigue problem leaking in the press ?
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 14:20
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Corporate Culture

In many places(countries), the aviation regulations have degenerated into a competition by the operator on how to get around the law to increase profits at any cost, especially the lives of fare paying passengers.

There are rules, varying quite alarmingly from country to country, which are intended to govern the rostering of aviation crews. However, no other aspect of the aviation industry receives as much attention from it's managers (up to CEO and COO) as that of crew rosters and how to circumvent the regulations or at worst steer the operation into a 'grey area'.

This is practiced as the holy grail of maximizing profits, crew rostering. Here we can make our biggest profit gains.
The regulations are a set with maximum limits set. Here is 'problem' number one. The limits are maximums. The operators however see these as target limits, there to be 'achieved'.

In addition, there are extensions on these limits to accommodate the operator should the schedule go over by a minute and up to 3 hours if need be. Use of the 3rd hour of extension normally requires a close cooperation with the local civil aviation authority, to help.
These over extensions and under rest limits are all "to be used to the maximum".

One of the basic deviations from the law which cannot easily be traced, is the time when the crew are expected (not required) to report for a flight. This can be anything from 15 minutes earlier to 5 or 6 hours earlier in the case of charter operations to accommodate the client arriving late. One then only enters the start time afterwards as the required time, allowing you to still have your original maximum working period even though you might already have been on duty for 6 hours!
Bear in mind, loads and loads of people worldwide work difficult hours and all through the night. However, how many of these occupations can result in the near instant death of scores to hundreds of people? Aircraft crews and nuclear power plant operators and a small handful of other occupations.
It may sound callous, but human lives are not in any way a deterrent for the profit requirements of airlines/air operators. Bearing in mind that some time ago already a survey proved that all current operators could run at a profit if all of them just increased each leg they fly by an amount of $5.

But the free market allows us to undercut each other to sink the opposition and thus take their operations over.

Hence, the absolute mercenary attitude to business. That, includes your and your loved ones lives for profit.

The industries presence and foresight into regulations is what has resulted in the international standards of limitations on flight deck crew being drawn up and implemented. Note the strict limits on for argument sake, truck drivers in say Germany. Far more stringent than air crews.
The bottom line is, until the fare paying passengers come forward and demand proper flight time limitations for air crew, it will not happen.
Currently the air operators can draw up work schedules for airline AND charter crews which allow for pilots to fly airplanes whilst tired. A case in point; the English word fatigue has been 'analyzed' and given certain defining characteristics. e.g. certain levels of body chemicals (cortisols) when fatigued is required for you to be fatigued, otherwise you cannot invoke fatigue as a reason to say you are unsafe to fly because you are tired.

Now we are not even mentioning living conditions/lifestyles. If that is mentioned, you will be targeted for troublemaking. So now you can easily have pilots flying airplanes who hate being there. Not a very healthy situation.

Once again, the air law is and has to be written in human blood before it is adhered to. More accidents will be happening whilst air operators manipulate the flight time limits to achieve greater and greater profits.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 15:48
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dubaigong

They wouldn't tolerate this kind of unprofessional behavior, probably fixing the system to identify future leaks.

Also probably talking to wearable fitness product vendors, so pilots can be always monitored. Bracelet will decide if you pilots are fatigued or not.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 16:15
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Solution coming....

Anyone caught complaining to fellow crew will be tarred and feathered and subject to disciplinary action. If you talk to the media, you will be labeled a threat and you will be arrested under slander law, imprisoned and re-educated to retract your statement and start telling the Company-provided truth.

As always, know that the Company cares about you and will do its utmost to ensure you get your profit share.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 18:24
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With increased attrition you might see a few ex EK blowing the whistle .
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 19:32
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EK is next. It's not if, it's when. And why not? They're on precisely the same path that led FZ to where it is.

At a management washup (remember those?) I point-blank asked the A380 DCP, that if EK had an accident/incident and the ensuing investigation identified fatigue as a precipitating factor, how would EK explain the hundreds of fatigue reports and ASR's about fatigue?

He had no answer. Maybe they just toss them in the bin, I don't know.

I think the saddest thing about the FZ accident is the sheer predictability of it, and the inevitability of EK's own approaching "moment in the sun".
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 20:47
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No question, the Indian bean counters at EK know exactly how many hull losses the airline could withstand and this is priced into the EK growth model. Their cost/benefit analysis of working their crews like slaves is endorsed and fully accounted for.
Their corporate counsel and PR spin doctors are well rehearsed in exactly what they will say in the the worst case scenario and has a plan fully in place for damage control. It will be contained.
It's hard to say whether some 'leaked' crew rosters from flydubai will find traction in the greater media and cause any concern or changes.
One can only hope that, god forbid, if anything ever happened to an EK flight, so much ill will has been created between the airline and former employees that damning evidence would reign down like a shit storm all over management. Lord knows, crews employed there are powerless to effect change.......gut wrenching.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 20:55
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Great stuff Itsaspade and nolimitholdem, you guys are so spot on!

Bindair Dundat:

about 2 years ago I attended a meeting hosted by AS about Airline Risk Management and it was
happily announced that we now can even afford 2 hull losses.
The biggest damage to them is just the loss of reputation the rest is taken care by the insurance.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 21:10
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Russia

They seem to have calculated for such an accident. Remember that they were easily able to get over the WSJ article. Check-in scam continues. Even though all the Western Authorities have all the evidence. How are they better than the GCAA ??? Money makes the world go round.

Thats's why I propose going through the German Pilot Union. They don't sell airplanes to the UAE. They are fellow pilots and probably as good a partner as you are going to find.

Wait, that sad unavoidable crash happened in Russia. Apparently there is no compelling reason for Russia to cover everything up and make sure the Sheikhs don't get offended. I am sure that can change. But for now we have an unexpected Ally. Maybe the bean counters missed that one. I guess that the Russians can at least up the price for silence dramatically. They have closed their airspace before.
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Old 23rd Mar 2016, 21:30
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Newest Report from RT

https://www.rt.com/news/336903-flydu...atigue-report/
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 05:21
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mediatic machine is already in motion to use rumors of fatigue..

Former colleague of FlyDubai captain tells of clues to crash | The National

....just wait....money is a very powerful tool..
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 07:18
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With all these testimonies of pushing pilots to the limits, repression if fatigue is reported, let's have a quick look into the recommendations of the BEA in the aftermath of the Germanwings tragedy.

It is talk of mental health there, we all know, but extrapolating it to mental and physical fatigue and stress with potential detrimental financial and career consequences at not so kind airlines, especially in the ME where they pretend to be EASA compliant, leave no doubt about its applicability.

IATA encourage its Member Airlines to implement measures to mitigate the socio-economic risks related to pilots’ loss of licence for medical reasons. [Recommendation FRAN-2016-015]
EASA ensure that European operators promote the implementation of peer support groups to provide a process for pilots, their families and peers to report and discuss personal and mental health issues, with the assurance that information will be kept in-confidence in a just-culture work environment, and that pilots will be supported as well as guided with the aim of providing them with help, ensuring flight safety and allowing them to return to flying duties, where applicable. [Recommendation FRAN-2016-021]
Hypocritical
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 08:07
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I truly think the EK brand could not survive a hull loss. I don't think senior management listen to the Indian bean counter WRT hull loss. The brand is very fragile , growing fast and needing that growth. Only time will tell with FZ but Gulf Air suffered badly.
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 08:26
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I agree with you completely, fatbus. (What IS going on?! Is the end of the world truly nigh? ) I have been at a carrier that suffered a hull loss - not on the scale of a A380 or B777, granted - and I cannot overstate the devastation to the company it entailed: the psychological damage to the staff aside, the brand damage was not survivable. The company became a shadow of itself (GF anyone?) and eventually, folded.

The problem is, I think that EK management truly believe their own bs and think that they can quantify such a horrific event, and discount it accordingly. Not to mention pretty much all of the Costa-dwellers are only looking to stuff as much into their own pockets before the inevitable. Pretty sure when it happens they will be nowhere to be seen.
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 14:35
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BBC reporting fatigue at flydubai

The BBC is now reporting about the levels of fatigue at flydubai.

FlyDubai crash pilot 'was due to leave job over fatigue' - BBC News

If the BBC report is truthful and fatigue turns out to be a contributory factor then the legal implications for the airline and the senior Flight Operations Management at flydubai are extreme.

If a flight crew was involved in a survivable accident or incident they would be taken off line during the period of investigation, extensive debriefing would take place and they would be given a period to rest and recover followed by possible retraining and managerial guidance.

The Accountable Managers at flydubai have no such opportunity to stand down. They have had to stand up and deal with the immediate aftermath of a dreadful accident which will have shaken even the most robust character to their very core. They have to face harsh critical comment from the media and now have to deal with the complexity of assisting the investigations which may turn out to have massive legal implications for them as individuals.

If a flight crew was facing the same situation they would be stood down from flying duties during the immediate aftermath during the investigation and during any legal process.

Is now the right time for the Flight Operations Management team at flydubai to stand down and for a new fresh team to take charge of the day to day operation of the airline. This would ensure a 100% focus on safety and security of the business
going forward.

It would also allow the existing managerial team the humanity of a period to stand down, to rest recuperate and decompress from an awful harrowing experience and then be in a position to focus exclusively on the investigations and deal with any future legal implications.
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Old 24th Mar 2016, 19:37
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Interesting timing, this.......

Putin hosts Abu Dhabi's crown prince for Syria-related talks - US News
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