If you are still considering EK.....
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If you are still considering EK.....
For those gathering information here when considering EK there is one thing that you need to understand to try and make sense of the comments:
Nobody has Emirates as their first choice of airline to work for.
Perhaps more strictly, nobody chooses to live in Dubai as a first choice. Nobody.
Pilots don’t go “I want to live in Dubai, who can I work for there? Hey Emirates looks good, I am going to apply to them so I can live in Dubai.” Emirates and the Middle East only becomes an option when promotion stalls in their own airline, their airline goes bust or looks like going bust, or their own country becomes too dangerous/corrupt to stay. They then look for jobs and go “What has the best on offer? Hmmmm, those Middle Eastern airlines seem to have what I want, ok, I know there will be sacrifices..... but I’ll just make them for the job.” The Emirates recruiting machine has been/is very good at painting a picture that is attractive, and so people who have had other options close jump into the smoke and mirrors that begins with the recruiting process.
The one simple fact is everybody wishes they could be living in their home country and flying for one of their country’s airlines. But for one reason or another they can’t.
So here is the point : people who move to Dubai make huge sacrifices to work for Emirates. This has been arrogantly forgotten. Make no mistake about that. Somewhere along the way, management have either started deluding themselves, or become so arrogant as to believe, that people come to Dubai for Dubai, and not Dubai for Emirates. And it just isn’t true.
Emirates had the balance correct - in the not too distant past operational staff still had a life and freedom, and thus the negatives about Dubai and the Middle East were able to be compartmentalized.
This is no longer true.
When I read comments here that people make saying “It’s not about the money, it’s about the rostering or the Annual Leave” I realise that even those here have reached the point where they have forgotten what they are doing here. They have gone into self-protection mode and are kidding themselves. Get this straight: It’s about the money. AND it’s about the rostering. AND it’s about the Annual Leave. Stop promoting the idea that it isn’t about the money. To Management it is only about the money so get it back into your head. You cannot retire in the UAE, so it is always about the money - having enough to escape with your health intact and move back to the real world.
Until the the latest part of Emirates’ gestation this has worked fine because upgrades have occurred in the 2.5 - 4 year time frame, and therefore quickly enough there has been a jump to a higher earning bracket for pilots, which has meant the package has seemed ok. The overwhelming majority of pilots found they could stick it out in the Middle East for somewhere between 7-12 years but then reached their limit. (And remember this is when the flying hours were 65-80hrs/month for the bulk of those years.) But those upgrade timeframes are no longer the case. Nor will they ever return. Emirates is now at the size of those ‘bloated, backward, neanderthal’ Legacy Carriers they like to attack, and consequently has started to see the issues associated with them. Those who have been employed in the last 18-24 months and those coming now will not see a Command for 7-10 years. Minimum.
Before people jump in and argue, “Well I wasn’t going to see Command at my airline for 20 years!” I’ll say yes, I agree! But there are 2 factors - ‘your airline’ is in your country. Don’t ever discount what that means. Secondly, Emirates doesn’t want you here longer than 7-10 years, and perhaps more accurately you won’t be capable of staying here longer than 7-10 years. So that is now a very big factor in your choice.
Why would you make the sacrifices to live in the Middle East if you are never going to get the much needed upgrade? Management (you know those people who sleep in their own beds at the same core hours every evening and are continually displaying that they have zero comprehension about shift work) have played their hand: the hours currently being flown are here to stay. And make no mistake - they are unsustainable. They are unsustainable if you want to fly safely. They are unsustainable if you are somebody who wants to live without health issues. They are unsustainable if you merely want to ‘live.’ And if you somehow fly for 7-10 years, with the ridiculous mix of short, medium & long haul flying done month in month out, 90+hrs/ month, and never having a decent AL break then you are going to have health issues. The Provident Fund* and the flying hours are geared to a pilot staying under 10 years. They don’t want you longer, they want to use you, burn you out and wave goodbye to you no later than that 10 year mark. Then go off to your country, or another, and deal with your health issues, which you are absolutely going to have. (*ie, after 10 years the P.F. jumps in company contribution and the company doesn’t want you to stick around to benefit from it.)
The current rostering practices are not, and will never afford you a healthy lifestyle. If you believe that the airline has your interests at heart take special note of their own rostering practices. There in black and white is the statement about the avoidance of scheduling rest periods of between 18 & 30 hours especially after long flights crossing many time zones. But hey, what are the overwhelming majority of rest periods - including after long flights? You guessed it! The new gem of shared rest days is not just unhealthy but fatigue inducing and will affect safety. Rostering 3 night turns and a layover in 7 days likewise. God help anyone who flies to the US up to 3 times a month (A380 pilots can) over the North Pole. You are nothing more than a guinea pig, and by the time it is realised that you are receiving too much radiation you will have left and be will suffering from the effects in your own country. Nobody does the mix of short, medium and long haul flying that Emirates does, and does it for 100 hrs per month, every month. Fatigue isn’t just something that may happen - it is something that you will live with permanently. So how much was that Command and the money really worth to you? Oh wait...you’re not getting the Command or the associated money now....
Now lets consider that precious time away from work. It is spent trying to catch up. Which you never will. So your quality time at home with your family (if you have one) is anything but quality. You will simply be too tired. Sure you will do things with your family, and you will be physically ‘there,’ but you won’t be ‘present’. It has been mentioned here before about the divorce rate in the company. I’ll say it again - how much was that Command and the money worth to you? Oh wait...you’re not getting the Command or the associated money now....
Another thing to consider as an FO for 7 years is the Staff Travel. Lets say you arrive in Dubai with Children aged 4 and 5. That will be 7 years minimum of being forced to travel in Economy because your children can’t be upgraded into Business Class. I still feel for FOs who have children approaching their teens and have to travel in Economy.......while watching a Captain with a child aged 2 being allowed into Business. Are you starting to get the mentality of the people who make policies in these here parts?
Others have spoken of the cost of living here - they speak the truth. The pathetic pay rises that have been offered the last few years - insulting to put it plainly - have been about a tenth of what inflation is running at. And here is the real kicker - you pay an obscenely inflated price for a product that is so far inferior to what is offered overseas it has to be seen to be believed. Fresh fruit and vegetables at any of the super/hypermarkets are not fresh and can never be! (If you doubt me you’ll work it out on your overnights when you eat a place where “the food was amazing!” No, it was just fresh.) They are tasteless and of incredibly poor quality, but you will pay 2x, 3x and up to 5x the price for them than you would in a first world country. Anything that is packaged and brought in from overseas is automatically doubled as a minimum in price. In the retail shops you will frequently see ‘Sales.’ Take a closer look. I still find it hysterical that they leave the original tags on clothing etc brought in from overseas. A 30-50% sale only brings the price back (after doing the conversion) to what it was originally in the home country. So how do you feel about having paid that price when there are no sales?
Now the latest golden initiative from those in management to stem the flow of people sprinting to the exit doors has arrived - the ‘Road to Command.’ An initiative brought in to keep the masses of FOs motivated and believing that Command is just around the corner. Let’s have a look at it - yep, more online learning to be done at home or in a hotel room, i.e. in your own time, which you already have very little of. It has been added to the endless list of modules that *must* be completed BEFORE any scheduled training days. They have gone that far now that EXAMS are done in your time, and not the Company’s during the Recurrent Ground School, or SEPs day etc. The list of modules for the last recurrent training (simulator for those folks not sure) was 7. That’s 7 Modules to be done in your already non existent free time, as well as studying for the simulator sessions.
So, how much was that Command and the money worth to you? Oh wait...you’re not getting the Command or the associated money now......
So I ask you this. How bad is it really in your airline or home country for you to consider signing up? If you do arrive, don’t look and feel sorry for the sub-continent workers being bussed to and from construction sites in air conditioner-lacking buses - you are the same as them, just at a different level.
I understand if you come from a crime-riddled country where you life is under threat. (It will be in Dubai too, but from the psychopathic drivers on the road, using their cars as a weapon, instead of something more traditional like a gun. And don’t be deluded into thinking it’s only the locals who drive like that - it isn’t. The Expats now more than make up a healthy percentage of people who believe it is safe to drive at 140km/h 1 foot from the car in front or swap 6 lanes in only 30m of forward movement. Oh, did you read what I wrote above - your life is also going to be under threat from the flying as well.)
I understand if you come from an airline that has gone bust. Or from a country that has imploded.
But if you are coming from a country that is stable, or an airline that is stable and you have nothing more than itchy feet, I point you back to the start: nobody moves to Emirates as a first choice. But many people are now realizing that it should never have been a second or third choice either. Is what you are doing now really worse than 7-10 years in the right hand seat, in a company that will extract every living cell from your body, in a country that will extract every dirham from you, and more?
Think hard about what you really want. The sacrifices that you will make are no longer being rewarded. Not in money, not in time off and not in your career path.
Keep Discovering. (Oh, you will.....)
Hello Tomorrow. (Hopefully. We all pray.....)
And make sure you don’t drink coffee in in uniform. (Because robots don’t need liquid or caffeine.)
“Everything is awesome, everything is cool when you’re part of the team! Everything is awesommmmmme, when you’re living the dreammmm”
Nobody has Emirates as their first choice of airline to work for.
Perhaps more strictly, nobody chooses to live in Dubai as a first choice. Nobody.
Pilots don’t go “I want to live in Dubai, who can I work for there? Hey Emirates looks good, I am going to apply to them so I can live in Dubai.” Emirates and the Middle East only becomes an option when promotion stalls in their own airline, their airline goes bust or looks like going bust, or their own country becomes too dangerous/corrupt to stay. They then look for jobs and go “What has the best on offer? Hmmmm, those Middle Eastern airlines seem to have what I want, ok, I know there will be sacrifices..... but I’ll just make them for the job.” The Emirates recruiting machine has been/is very good at painting a picture that is attractive, and so people who have had other options close jump into the smoke and mirrors that begins with the recruiting process.
The one simple fact is everybody wishes they could be living in their home country and flying for one of their country’s airlines. But for one reason or another they can’t.
So here is the point : people who move to Dubai make huge sacrifices to work for Emirates. This has been arrogantly forgotten. Make no mistake about that. Somewhere along the way, management have either started deluding themselves, or become so arrogant as to believe, that people come to Dubai for Dubai, and not Dubai for Emirates. And it just isn’t true.
Emirates had the balance correct - in the not too distant past operational staff still had a life and freedom, and thus the negatives about Dubai and the Middle East were able to be compartmentalized.
This is no longer true.
When I read comments here that people make saying “It’s not about the money, it’s about the rostering or the Annual Leave” I realise that even those here have reached the point where they have forgotten what they are doing here. They have gone into self-protection mode and are kidding themselves. Get this straight: It’s about the money. AND it’s about the rostering. AND it’s about the Annual Leave. Stop promoting the idea that it isn’t about the money. To Management it is only about the money so get it back into your head. You cannot retire in the UAE, so it is always about the money - having enough to escape with your health intact and move back to the real world.
Until the the latest part of Emirates’ gestation this has worked fine because upgrades have occurred in the 2.5 - 4 year time frame, and therefore quickly enough there has been a jump to a higher earning bracket for pilots, which has meant the package has seemed ok. The overwhelming majority of pilots found they could stick it out in the Middle East for somewhere between 7-12 years but then reached their limit. (And remember this is when the flying hours were 65-80hrs/month for the bulk of those years.) But those upgrade timeframes are no longer the case. Nor will they ever return. Emirates is now at the size of those ‘bloated, backward, neanderthal’ Legacy Carriers they like to attack, and consequently has started to see the issues associated with them. Those who have been employed in the last 18-24 months and those coming now will not see a Command for 7-10 years. Minimum.
Before people jump in and argue, “Well I wasn’t going to see Command at my airline for 20 years!” I’ll say yes, I agree! But there are 2 factors - ‘your airline’ is in your country. Don’t ever discount what that means. Secondly, Emirates doesn’t want you here longer than 7-10 years, and perhaps more accurately you won’t be capable of staying here longer than 7-10 years. So that is now a very big factor in your choice.
Why would you make the sacrifices to live in the Middle East if you are never going to get the much needed upgrade? Management (you know those people who sleep in their own beds at the same core hours every evening and are continually displaying that they have zero comprehension about shift work) have played their hand: the hours currently being flown are here to stay. And make no mistake - they are unsustainable. They are unsustainable if you want to fly safely. They are unsustainable if you are somebody who wants to live without health issues. They are unsustainable if you merely want to ‘live.’ And if you somehow fly for 7-10 years, with the ridiculous mix of short, medium & long haul flying done month in month out, 90+hrs/ month, and never having a decent AL break then you are going to have health issues. The Provident Fund* and the flying hours are geared to a pilot staying under 10 years. They don’t want you longer, they want to use you, burn you out and wave goodbye to you no later than that 10 year mark. Then go off to your country, or another, and deal with your health issues, which you are absolutely going to have. (*ie, after 10 years the P.F. jumps in company contribution and the company doesn’t want you to stick around to benefit from it.)
The current rostering practices are not, and will never afford you a healthy lifestyle. If you believe that the airline has your interests at heart take special note of their own rostering practices. There in black and white is the statement about the avoidance of scheduling rest periods of between 18 & 30 hours especially after long flights crossing many time zones. But hey, what are the overwhelming majority of rest periods - including after long flights? You guessed it! The new gem of shared rest days is not just unhealthy but fatigue inducing and will affect safety. Rostering 3 night turns and a layover in 7 days likewise. God help anyone who flies to the US up to 3 times a month (A380 pilots can) over the North Pole. You are nothing more than a guinea pig, and by the time it is realised that you are receiving too much radiation you will have left and be will suffering from the effects in your own country. Nobody does the mix of short, medium and long haul flying that Emirates does, and does it for 100 hrs per month, every month. Fatigue isn’t just something that may happen - it is something that you will live with permanently. So how much was that Command and the money really worth to you? Oh wait...you’re not getting the Command or the associated money now....
Now lets consider that precious time away from work. It is spent trying to catch up. Which you never will. So your quality time at home with your family (if you have one) is anything but quality. You will simply be too tired. Sure you will do things with your family, and you will be physically ‘there,’ but you won’t be ‘present’. It has been mentioned here before about the divorce rate in the company. I’ll say it again - how much was that Command and the money worth to you? Oh wait...you’re not getting the Command or the associated money now....
Another thing to consider as an FO for 7 years is the Staff Travel. Lets say you arrive in Dubai with Children aged 4 and 5. That will be 7 years minimum of being forced to travel in Economy because your children can’t be upgraded into Business Class. I still feel for FOs who have children approaching their teens and have to travel in Economy.......while watching a Captain with a child aged 2 being allowed into Business. Are you starting to get the mentality of the people who make policies in these here parts?
Others have spoken of the cost of living here - they speak the truth. The pathetic pay rises that have been offered the last few years - insulting to put it plainly - have been about a tenth of what inflation is running at. And here is the real kicker - you pay an obscenely inflated price for a product that is so far inferior to what is offered overseas it has to be seen to be believed. Fresh fruit and vegetables at any of the super/hypermarkets are not fresh and can never be! (If you doubt me you’ll work it out on your overnights when you eat a place where “the food was amazing!” No, it was just fresh.) They are tasteless and of incredibly poor quality, but you will pay 2x, 3x and up to 5x the price for them than you would in a first world country. Anything that is packaged and brought in from overseas is automatically doubled as a minimum in price. In the retail shops you will frequently see ‘Sales.’ Take a closer look. I still find it hysterical that they leave the original tags on clothing etc brought in from overseas. A 30-50% sale only brings the price back (after doing the conversion) to what it was originally in the home country. So how do you feel about having paid that price when there are no sales?
Now the latest golden initiative from those in management to stem the flow of people sprinting to the exit doors has arrived - the ‘Road to Command.’ An initiative brought in to keep the masses of FOs motivated and believing that Command is just around the corner. Let’s have a look at it - yep, more online learning to be done at home or in a hotel room, i.e. in your own time, which you already have very little of. It has been added to the endless list of modules that *must* be completed BEFORE any scheduled training days. They have gone that far now that EXAMS are done in your time, and not the Company’s during the Recurrent Ground School, or SEPs day etc. The list of modules for the last recurrent training (simulator for those folks not sure) was 7. That’s 7 Modules to be done in your already non existent free time, as well as studying for the simulator sessions.
So, how much was that Command and the money worth to you? Oh wait...you’re not getting the Command or the associated money now......
So I ask you this. How bad is it really in your airline or home country for you to consider signing up? If you do arrive, don’t look and feel sorry for the sub-continent workers being bussed to and from construction sites in air conditioner-lacking buses - you are the same as them, just at a different level.
I understand if you come from a crime-riddled country where you life is under threat. (It will be in Dubai too, but from the psychopathic drivers on the road, using their cars as a weapon, instead of something more traditional like a gun. And don’t be deluded into thinking it’s only the locals who drive like that - it isn’t. The Expats now more than make up a healthy percentage of people who believe it is safe to drive at 140km/h 1 foot from the car in front or swap 6 lanes in only 30m of forward movement. Oh, did you read what I wrote above - your life is also going to be under threat from the flying as well.)
I understand if you come from an airline that has gone bust. Or from a country that has imploded.
But if you are coming from a country that is stable, or an airline that is stable and you have nothing more than itchy feet, I point you back to the start: nobody moves to Emirates as a first choice. But many people are now realizing that it should never have been a second or third choice either. Is what you are doing now really worse than 7-10 years in the right hand seat, in a company that will extract every living cell from your body, in a country that will extract every dirham from you, and more?
Think hard about what you really want. The sacrifices that you will make are no longer being rewarded. Not in money, not in time off and not in your career path.
Keep Discovering. (Oh, you will.....)
Hello Tomorrow. (Hopefully. We all pray.....)
And make sure you don’t drink coffee in in uniform. (Because robots don’t need liquid or caffeine.)
“Everything is awesome, everything is cool when you’re part of the team! Everything is awesommmmmme, when you’re living the dreammmm”
Last edited by keepitrealok; 20th Mar 2016 at 04:41. Reason: Remove ambiguity.
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Keepitrealok
Well written, articulate and accurate.
I totally agree.
May I also add that they promise free education for three children, but it's not free, their allowance is never enough and they expect and has become normal to accept that we have to pay. Why sell the package as free education, it's not free, it's just subsidised, and education is very expensive ... I just wish EK would describe it as it is ... Not sell it and wait till you arrive to a nasty surprise
Oh wait , did I mention that your medical cover is thwarted with so many restrictions. You need a legal degree to be able to decipher what your entitled too , and generally surprise surprise... It's either pre existing, or restricted by a cap that doesn't reflect the true value of medical care in Dubai.
The Hr manual is open to interpretation , if you're persistent to actually find the relevant chapter,
And if you have the tenacity, stubbornness and time, to try to call every phone number to try to reach medical benefits , to either it ringing out, or you reach an answering machine .. But you can't leave a message because the message bank is full. And as a last resort you send an email to get some clarification and the reply is either from planet Mars or irrelevant....
And that's the policy, before seeking medical help, you to obtain pre approval... Most times, HOW DO YOU DO THAT????
That's my rant, some may not agree but that's my EK experience
Well written, articulate and accurate.
I totally agree.
May I also add that they promise free education for three children, but it's not free, their allowance is never enough and they expect and has become normal to accept that we have to pay. Why sell the package as free education, it's not free, it's just subsidised, and education is very expensive ... I just wish EK would describe it as it is ... Not sell it and wait till you arrive to a nasty surprise
Oh wait , did I mention that your medical cover is thwarted with so many restrictions. You need a legal degree to be able to decipher what your entitled too , and generally surprise surprise... It's either pre existing, or restricted by a cap that doesn't reflect the true value of medical care in Dubai.
The Hr manual is open to interpretation , if you're persistent to actually find the relevant chapter,
And if you have the tenacity, stubbornness and time, to try to call every phone number to try to reach medical benefits , to either it ringing out, or you reach an answering machine .. But you can't leave a message because the message bank is full. And as a last resort you send an email to get some clarification and the reply is either from planet Mars or irrelevant....
And that's the policy, before seeking medical help, you to obtain pre approval... Most times, HOW DO YOU DO THAT????
That's my rant, some may not agree but that's my EK experience
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keepitrealok: Might I commend you on a particularly succinct appreciation of the facts, and therein bravo & well said !
For what it's worth, I too (at the airline across on the other side of the airfield) have recently resigned from it - with a smidgeon over 7 years here - and, outside of the Cmd aspects (as already in LHS), I did so for many of the reasons that you (and adel) have stated above; ergo, it's the same over (t)here too!
For what it's worth, I too (at the airline across on the other side of the airfield) have recently resigned from it - with a smidgeon over 7 years here - and, outside of the Cmd aspects (as already in LHS), I did so for many of the reasons that you (and adel) have stated above; ergo, it's the same over (t)here too!
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very true
very detailed and very true. And really hard to believe until you have seen it. I wish somedody had told me exactly the above 5 years ago.
The only thing I would add is that it is incredibly hard to reverse that mistake once you fell into the trap and joined. This is not a proper contract ruled by a proper legal system (you can check what the US State Department and Human Rights Watch have to say about the UAE legal system). Even if you hate it you might have to stay because you can not afford to leave. Your family might leave you though after a while...
First of all you won't get time off to apply anywhere else. Off days won't cover it and are hard to get. Vacation is scheduled too far in advance. If you try to call sick you can't leave the country. So be prepared to leave without another job because you simply didn't have time to arrange for a new one while you were at EK.
Second you will be bonded for 5 years. And loose all the promised goodies from the Provident Fund etc. Be very clear about this: Once you find out that you have been cheated and the actual job is nothing like you were promised or given in writing you can not just terminate the contract. You will be made to pay serious money plus all the lost investments and switching cost for coming to Dubai and leaving again. Since you probably didn't come from within a hundred miles that is a significant chunk of money.
So ignore the excellent post above at your own risk and cost. Or be wise and avoid this fancy Marketing gig of a hellhole.
The only thing I would add is that it is incredibly hard to reverse that mistake once you fell into the trap and joined. This is not a proper contract ruled by a proper legal system (you can check what the US State Department and Human Rights Watch have to say about the UAE legal system). Even if you hate it you might have to stay because you can not afford to leave. Your family might leave you though after a while...
First of all you won't get time off to apply anywhere else. Off days won't cover it and are hard to get. Vacation is scheduled too far in advance. If you try to call sick you can't leave the country. So be prepared to leave without another job because you simply didn't have time to arrange for a new one while you were at EK.
Second you will be bonded for 5 years. And loose all the promised goodies from the Provident Fund etc. Be very clear about this: Once you find out that you have been cheated and the actual job is nothing like you were promised or given in writing you can not just terminate the contract. You will be made to pay serious money plus all the lost investments and switching cost for coming to Dubai and leaving again. Since you probably didn't come from within a hundred miles that is a significant chunk of money.
So ignore the excellent post above at your own risk and cost. Or be wise and avoid this fancy Marketing gig of a hellhole.
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In Freedom, all your comments are correct, except one... You were told all of this 5 years ago, albeit not in one well constructed post. I mean it nicely when I say, that you, like everyone else who's joined, just chose to ignore what was right in front of you all that time. That facts have never changed in the last 10 years here, just the severity...
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One of the most factual and correct posts ever! All that's said above is true. I'm here since 14 years and will be leaving very soon. This sad excuse of an airline is killing us. It used to be pretty good like 10 ot 15 years ago but since 8 or 9 years there is only one direction, and that is downhill. Each and every change is for the worse, nothing will EVER get better here. Let's face it, they think we are their slaves, that's their mindset. I said it before and I say it again: This could be one of the best gigs in the world, but they chose to ruin it for everyone. Greed and arrogance rule in this outfit. So as everyone else has said: DON'T come here unless you really really have no other choice! You will regret it.
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Very good information but not completely true in my opinion:
Pilots don’t go “I want to live in Dubai, who can I work for there? Hey Emirates looks good, I am going to apply to them so I can live in Dubai.” Emirates and the Middle East only becomes an option when promotion stalls in their own airline, their airline goes bust or looks like going bust, or their own country becomes too dangerous/corrupt to stay. They then look for jobs and go “What has the best on offer? Hmmmm, those Middle Eastern airlines seem to have what I want, ok, I know there will be sacrifices..... but I’ll just make them for the job.” The Emirates recruiting machine has been/is very good at painting a picture that is attractive, and so people who have had other options close jump into the smoke and mirrors that begins with the recruiting process.
I know a lot of guys and girls who actually want to go to EK (even though they know about the current situation, but companies like Turkish, Lionair, Ryanair and so on have worse conditions and are deteriorating more than we are aware off). For example Lionair has roster over 130h plus a month (yes illegal) and Ryanair actually forces people on Ryanair contracts which for example means 10% pay cut for starters and as you then start paying social a total of plus minus 35% pay cut.
So here is the point : people who move to Dubai make huge sacrifices to work for Emirates. This has been arrogantly forgotten. Make no mistake about that. Somewhere along the way, management have either started deluding themselves, or become so arrogant as to believe, that people come to Dubai for Dubai, and not Dubai for Emirates. And it just isn’t true.
Huge sacrificies indeed. But honestly didn't you do homework before starting the job. Fair enough for the people here who started decades ago, things got worse and won't get any better. But for people like myself who started right after 9/11, the flight school simply said: Forget about the white picket fence story, forget about spending time with your family during all important events. It won't happen. If you do want all of that, there is the door and don't become a pilot.
If you and if unlucky your wife/children have a small doubt about your choice of moving to Dubai please by all means do not even consider it. You will not be happy. If you are excited to come, even with or without the " lies " on the Internet and Management please do come. You will make it nicer for the rest of us regarding the hours
.
Another thing to consider as an FO for 7 years is the Staff Travel. Lets say you arrive in Dubai with Children aged 4 and 5. That will be 7 years minimum of being forced to travel in Economy because your children can’t be upgraded into Business Class. I still feel for FOs who have children approaching their teens and have to travel in Economy.......while watching a Captain with a child aged 2 being allowed into Business. Are you starting to get the mentality of the people who make policies in these here parts?
Wow... No offense but are you really complaining you get staff travel in Economy and not Business? I just picked up 2 friends of mine from the airport and I saw a woman from the UK shouting at her husband (EK pilot clearly) because she did not get First Class and had to deal with Business instead.... No wonder people are so grim when the wife are acting like a freaking kardashian.
Keep in mind that a lot of people who come to EK are coming for one of the following:
Company is bad (EK is bad fair enough)
Company is cutting your pay (Seems to increase here in EK, Understand not by inflation but still. The whole world is inflating)
Company is moving you away from your home several times a year just for fun (Doing 100h per month could be considered the same, but I guess you don't move all your furniture to Lagos every time)
Company is going bust (EK seems to be going steady)
And the worst of all, Pilots are actually making less then burger flippers in my home country, I operated for a different carrier, but still was not able to pay my loan and thus got severe problems with banks. Emirates pays me more than enough to survive and pay of my loan. THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for me to pay of my loan in an European carrier.
Pilots don’t go “I want to live in Dubai, who can I work for there? Hey Emirates looks good, I am going to apply to them so I can live in Dubai.” Emirates and the Middle East only becomes an option when promotion stalls in their own airline, their airline goes bust or looks like going bust, or their own country becomes too dangerous/corrupt to stay. They then look for jobs and go “What has the best on offer? Hmmmm, those Middle Eastern airlines seem to have what I want, ok, I know there will be sacrifices..... but I’ll just make them for the job.” The Emirates recruiting machine has been/is very good at painting a picture that is attractive, and so people who have had other options close jump into the smoke and mirrors that begins with the recruiting process.
I know a lot of guys and girls who actually want to go to EK (even though they know about the current situation, but companies like Turkish, Lionair, Ryanair and so on have worse conditions and are deteriorating more than we are aware off). For example Lionair has roster over 130h plus a month (yes illegal) and Ryanair actually forces people on Ryanair contracts which for example means 10% pay cut for starters and as you then start paying social a total of plus minus 35% pay cut.
So here is the point : people who move to Dubai make huge sacrifices to work for Emirates. This has been arrogantly forgotten. Make no mistake about that. Somewhere along the way, management have either started deluding themselves, or become so arrogant as to believe, that people come to Dubai for Dubai, and not Dubai for Emirates. And it just isn’t true.
Huge sacrificies indeed. But honestly didn't you do homework before starting the job. Fair enough for the people here who started decades ago, things got worse and won't get any better. But for people like myself who started right after 9/11, the flight school simply said: Forget about the white picket fence story, forget about spending time with your family during all important events. It won't happen. If you do want all of that, there is the door and don't become a pilot.
If you and if unlucky your wife/children have a small doubt about your choice of moving to Dubai please by all means do not even consider it. You will not be happy. If you are excited to come, even with or without the " lies " on the Internet and Management please do come. You will make it nicer for the rest of us regarding the hours
. Another thing to consider as an FO for 7 years is the Staff Travel. Lets say you arrive in Dubai with Children aged 4 and 5. That will be 7 years minimum of being forced to travel in Economy because your children can’t be upgraded into Business Class. I still feel for FOs who have children approaching their teens and have to travel in Economy.......while watching a Captain with a child aged 2 being allowed into Business. Are you starting to get the mentality of the people who make policies in these here parts?
Wow... No offense but are you really complaining you get staff travel in Economy and not Business? I just picked up 2 friends of mine from the airport and I saw a woman from the UK shouting at her husband (EK pilot clearly) because she did not get First Class and had to deal with Business instead.... No wonder people are so grim when the wife are acting like a freaking kardashian.
Keep in mind that a lot of people who come to EK are coming for one of the following:
Company is bad (EK is bad fair enough)
Company is cutting your pay (Seems to increase here in EK, Understand not by inflation but still. The whole world is inflating
)Company is moving you away from your home several times a year just for fun (Doing 100h per month could be considered the same, but I guess you don't move all your furniture to Lagos every time)
Company is going bust (EK seems to be going steady)
And the worst of all, Pilots are actually making less then burger flippers in my home country, I operated for a different carrier, but still was not able to pay my loan and thus got severe problems with banks. Emirates pays me more than enough to survive and pay of my loan. THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for me to pay of my loan in an European carrier.
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I can just fully agree being a former QR "robot". Same absurde rules(laban,shortbread,fresh orange juice, the BLOODY hat which could cost you your job,...).
When I was over in QR quiet a while ago EK was still a "dreamland" to be. Unfortunately at this time you needed to resign from QR and wait 6 months till EK would accept your application. Thanks god I never did that and just left the ME.
Now, a lot of years later I was thinking about re-applying. But honestly - it is shocking to read what happened to EK.
Good luck guys!
@Flyingishere
You mention the "bad" contracts back here in Europe, well, if I "have" to pay social contribution, it is what it is, I pay in a social pot and and receive something if you are in need(long term sickness, retirement,..).It called "Social System" ^^. Someone staying too long down there might have forgotten... This is not the case in the ME. I always prefer Ryanair over EK, not really much to think about. Turkish is already one of this ME airlines. As well there the situation is becoming worse if you believe the various threads around this forum.
When I was over in QR quiet a while ago EK was still a "dreamland" to be. Unfortunately at this time you needed to resign from QR and wait 6 months till EK would accept your application. Thanks god I never did that and just left the ME.
Now, a lot of years later I was thinking about re-applying. But honestly - it is shocking to read what happened to EK.
Good luck guys!
@Flyingishere
You mention the "bad" contracts back here in Europe, well, if I "have" to pay social contribution, it is what it is, I pay in a social pot and and receive something if you are in need(long term sickness, retirement,..).It called "Social System" ^^. Someone staying too long down there might have forgotten... This is not the case in the ME. I always prefer Ryanair over EK, not really much to think about. Turkish is already one of this ME airlines. As well there the situation is becoming worse if you believe the various threads around this forum.
Last edited by tomuchwork; 18th Mar 2016 at 12:25.
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Fair enough. I'm just speaking of the people before 28 feb 2012 who were considered not to pay social tax and thus Ryanair adapting and changing their salary with this in the back of their mind. They deliberately changed the pay of contractors as they were entitled not to pay social tax. After 28 feb 2012 this law changed and every new contract had to pay social tax thus losing over 40% pay a month while Ryanair did not change anything. There were guys (when they were out of expenses) making 800 euro a month, which is worse pay than a cabin crew in Ryanair.
Though can people explain me the following of this forum. When someone posts or creates a thread about how bad EK or ME in general is the comments and responds are: Best read so far, Great story, Must read for people who are crazy...
But when someone actually from their POV wants to tell their side of the story and thus helping people who can find themselves in that story can make a decision based on that info, are basically, how to put this nicely, being told to **** OFF.
Honestly more people means less hours means more time with the family
win-win-win
Though can people explain me the following of this forum. When someone posts or creates a thread about how bad EK or ME in general is the comments and responds are: Best read so far, Great story, Must read for people who are crazy...
But when someone actually from their POV wants to tell their side of the story and thus helping people who can find themselves in that story can make a decision based on that info, are basically, how to put this nicely, being told to **** OFF.
Honestly more people means less hours means more time with the family
win-win-win
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Flyingishere,
I agree with your point of view. There are always places worse than EK. We are not denying that.
Where I disagree with you is the point where more people means more time with the family. This is where you lack the perspective of someone who is already here. This is why we are posting on PPRuNe. A perspective from those already in the system. EK will never hire enough so that we can have more time off with our families. They will hire enough to maintain pilot numbers to a ratio of their choice. It is pretty clear their choice is 99-92 hours per month. This will not change despite new hires. I have seen this happen time and time again, both in line pilots and trainers.
It your choice to take this on board or not. We are trying to make others aware so they don't make the same mistakes.
I agree with your point of view. There are always places worse than EK. We are not denying that.
Where I disagree with you is the point where more people means more time with the family. This is where you lack the perspective of someone who is already here. This is why we are posting on PPRuNe. A perspective from those already in the system. EK will never hire enough so that we can have more time off with our families. They will hire enough to maintain pilot numbers to a ratio of their choice. It is pretty clear their choice is 99-92 hours per month. This will not change despite new hires. I have seen this happen time and time again, both in line pilots and trainers.
It your choice to take this on board or not. We are trying to make others aware so they don't make the same mistakes.
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thanks for the well - written post, it has made me reconsider many of my thoughts about Emirates. i have a question though , if you fly 100 hours in a month , which results to 900 hours in 9 months, having run out of all your hours (considering 900 is the GCAA limit for the year), dont you have the other 3 months as off ??.
Thanks
Thanks
Then you get rostered as the augmenting pilot for freighter or pax flight that require a 3 man crew, hence only a small part of the time flown is calculated towards your monthly/yearly total.
Additionally there is the factoring issue on the ULR flights, I.e if the flight has a block time of 14 hours each leg, since you operate one way and augment the other the total hours that go towards your monthly/yearly total would be about 21 hours as opposed to the 28 you spent at work.
Last but not least since the greedy buggers are never pleased, if you are maxed out on your hours they can also roster you for simulator support.
I have on a number of occasions, exceeded 900 hours but was still legal to fly. In fairness though the last time I had to stop due to hours I was given a whole bunch of off days after I refused them taking my leave.
The real issue is not the 100hrs per month (although unsustainable) but the mix of flying, and lack of time off or leave to fully recover. I would say half the time spent at work is when the average person is asleep. Add to that min rest, combined rest, plus west-east and ULR, short haul, etc and the mix is now toxic.
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Was seriously considering applying for EK about 5 years ago and perhaps was a better airline back then, but reading these threads I can't tell you how relieved I am to have not left the LCC which I still work for. Probably no consolation, but thanks to all the posters explaining the situation there.