1500 ft/min 1000 ft to level off
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In my seat
Posts: 822
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surprised to see that any EK pilot would even consider to fly Vnav of FLTchange during a small change in level/ alt.
Basic Airmanship gentlemen?!
For small altitude changes, less than say 3000', use VS and avoid large thrust changes, large cabin attitude changes, risk of TCAS events, more room to correct Atc reclearances,...
This is taught DAY 1 of line- training ab-initios!
Basic Airmanship gentlemen?!
For small altitude changes, less than say 3000', use VS and avoid large thrust changes, large cabin attitude changes, risk of TCAS events, more room to correct Atc reclearances,...
This is taught DAY 1 of line- training ab-initios!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 55
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jimmyg,
I think good/poor airmanship means different things to different people. It would appear that if someone else has different ideas to you, you would consider them a poor pilot.
It never ceases to amaze me when people fiddle endlessly with v/s, whilst the plane is quite capable of handling it's designed modes. I, personally, would never climb in v/s mode, despite what the fctm says. Would you really want your brand new turbo prop driver playing around in v/s mode at 40 000ft
Also, for small altitude changes(1000ft) and in the hold, the Airbus will descend automatically at 1000ft/min. Click and push......it's that simple.
Furthemore, in v/s, you are losing control of the speed(you will agree that we almost always have a speed restriction in the descent). Why increase your workload by having to mess around with rod and/or speedbrake to keep it under control.
I use the system the way it was designed. Program the box to do what you want and let the plane take care of it. Intervene when things don't go your way. In this proces, rod of 600 - 3000 ft/min is not one of my big concerns.
Each to their own, I guess.
I think good/poor airmanship means different things to different people. It would appear that if someone else has different ideas to you, you would consider them a poor pilot.
It never ceases to amaze me when people fiddle endlessly with v/s, whilst the plane is quite capable of handling it's designed modes. I, personally, would never climb in v/s mode, despite what the fctm says. Would you really want your brand new turbo prop driver playing around in v/s mode at 40 000ft
Also, for small altitude changes(1000ft) and in the hold, the Airbus will descend automatically at 1000ft/min. Click and push......it's that simple.
Furthemore, in v/s, you are losing control of the speed(you will agree that we almost always have a speed restriction in the descent). Why increase your workload by having to mess around with rod and/or speedbrake to keep it under control.
I use the system the way it was designed. Program the box to do what you want and let the plane take care of it. Intervene when things don't go your way. In this proces, rod of 600 - 3000 ft/min is not one of my big concerns.
Each to their own, I guess.
Last edited by Kennytheking; 14th Feb 2016 at 10:01.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Woodlands
Age: 64
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Points taken..... there is a time and place for different modes for different situations. My technique is not for everyone. I prefer to say when, where, how fast and how much at times, rather than let the A/C automation dictate flight parameters to me.
I must disagree with letting your aircraft wander thru the sky with large V/S variations. Most certainly at higher altitudes where a trade off of acceptable airspeed loss is permissible.
I must disagree with letting your aircraft wander thru the sky with large V/S variations. Most certainly at higher altitudes where a trade off of acceptable airspeed loss is permissible.
Last edited by jimmyg; 14th Feb 2016 at 10:52.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 55
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jimmy, sure. I too used to want to control all the flight parameters, so I understand where you are coming from.
It took me a long time to develop faith in the automatics. Now i know what to trust and what to be wary of.
In terms of the varying rod, i take your point and we differ, which is ok.
It took me a long time to develop faith in the automatics. Now i know what to trust and what to be wary of.
In terms of the varying rod, i take your point and we differ, which is ok.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ijatta
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before heading to the bunk during crew rest breaks, I would often take a stroll through the cabin making a couple of loops from the forward galley to the aft galley and back. This to help with the blood circulation to my lower legs.
Anytime a climb was initiated while I happened to be aft of the engines, I got an appreciation of the startle affect it had on the dozing passengers.
Once achieved, it was not so much the noise of the engines at CLB power would bother passengers, but the abruptness of the change from the established cruise power setting to CLB power by selecting VNAV that would startle them.
IMO, Honeywell could have programmed the VNAV logic to be gentler with the auto-throttles, especially during small altitude changes.
Anytime a climb was initiated while I happened to be aft of the engines, I got an appreciation of the startle affect it had on the dozing passengers.
Once achieved, it was not so much the noise of the engines at CLB power would bother passengers, but the abruptness of the change from the established cruise power setting to CLB power by selecting VNAV that would startle them.
IMO, Honeywell could have programmed the VNAV logic to be gentler with the auto-throttles, especially during small altitude changes.
Last edited by wanabee777; 14th Feb 2016 at 17:35.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kennytheking
Perhaps the answer to this thread is to have a good systems knowledge of your particular aircraft and of the various modes and their respective limitations. Fiddling with V/S at FL400 is perfectly fine, as long as it's not set at 3000fpm climb. Likewise, not a great idea setting the same decent rate at 10,000ft whilst trying to maintain 230kts. Agreed?
Whilst the Airbus will happily do a given rate in the hold, other aircraft have different logic. In any situation, the pilot should always be prepared to select the most appropriate level of automation for that task. Ideally, this will be the highest, but it's not always possible or suitable. So, my question to you would be, if you're light and climbing rapidly in a busy TMA, would you still leave the VNAV mode engaged?
Perhaps when the 'turboprop' guys you refer to see that experienced guys like yourself can confidently interchange the various levels of automation to suit the situation, maybe they too will gain the knowledge and confidence to operate our aircraft safely and efficiently in the manner they were designed.
Harry
Perhaps the answer to this thread is to have a good systems knowledge of your particular aircraft and of the various modes and their respective limitations. Fiddling with V/S at FL400 is perfectly fine, as long as it's not set at 3000fpm climb. Likewise, not a great idea setting the same decent rate at 10,000ft whilst trying to maintain 230kts. Agreed?
Whilst the Airbus will happily do a given rate in the hold, other aircraft have different logic. In any situation, the pilot should always be prepared to select the most appropriate level of automation for that task. Ideally, this will be the highest, but it's not always possible or suitable. So, my question to you would be, if you're light and climbing rapidly in a busy TMA, would you still leave the VNAV mode engaged?
Perhaps when the 'turboprop' guys you refer to see that experienced guys like yourself can confidently interchange the various levels of automation to suit the situation, maybe they too will gain the knowledge and confidence to operate our aircraft safely and efficiently in the manner they were designed.
Harry
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Far and Height
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyway the highest level of automation is the one that keeps you in the loop,the most efficient one for the actual situation regarding your knowledge,even hand flying if better than AFDS...whatever fits you and you master well is the highest and safest level of automation. clic clic clac clac...
Just my point.
Just my point.
Surprised to see that any EK pilot would even consider to fly Vnav of FLTchange during a small change in level/ alt.
Basic Airmanship gentlemen?!
For small altitude changes, less than say 3000', use VS and avoid large thrust changes, large cabin attitude changes, risk of TCAS events, more room to correct Atc reclearances,...
This is taught DAY 1 of line- training ab-initios!
Basic Airmanship gentlemen?!
For small altitude changes, less than say 3000', use VS and avoid large thrust changes, large cabin attitude changes, risk of TCAS events, more room to correct Atc reclearances,...
This is taught DAY 1 of line- training ab-initios!
Last edited by StudentInDebt; 14th Feb 2016 at 13:32.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with harry on the light weight issue. Try using VNAV to climb from 4000' to 6000' going to DOH on a -200LR. I did it when we first got them, so the perfect time and place to use V/S!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ijatta
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure I remember being told that the 757 and 767 FLCH logic would limit the RoC/D to 1000fpm if it could reach the selected altitude/FL within 2 minutes. Made for lovely cruise climbs/descents compared to chucking it in the box and letting VNAV throw all the power on and avoided the risk that a numpty would forget the relationship between the VS pitch mode and speed at high altitude. Does the 777 not have this feature?
short flights long nights
There was upon a time a thing called Airmanship. But the manangment culture of EK removed it. So that us why you get ASRs about something that almost happened.
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Middle East
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Harry,
I sat in shock and awe whilst a brand new captain (Not in EK), attempted a "zoom" climb, on the climb out to avoid some CB's ahead of us, using a VS of 2000fpm, and proudly announced winding the speed back to 250kts, "now let's see what this baby can do!", the look on his face was priceless as confusion set in when the thrust levers abruptly came back
I sat in shock and awe whilst a brand new captain (Not in EK), attempted a "zoom" climb, on the climb out to avoid some CB's ahead of us, using a VS of 2000fpm, and proudly announced winding the speed back to 250kts, "now let's see what this baby can do!", the look on his face was priceless as confusion set in when the thrust levers abruptly came back
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 55
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SOPS, that's a bit harsh. Sure, there are some dodgy asr's but that is a cultural thing. It doesn't mean that the guys have no airmanship. Even though we don't all agree on the specifics, I think most guys try and do a good job. I don't really care what modes you guys decend or climb in. I just have my preferences and it seems to get the job done.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No it's not harsh. Some of the comments on here are stunning. Climbing in a heavy jet aircraft at high altitude in V/S instead of Managed... and yet you see it on the line frequently enough. Who's training them? When the engines are at limit thrust and IAS begins to creep back while the guy winds in a higher RoC it's time to select it for him.
It's not only this V/S thing; there seems to be a lot of airmanship/common sense fundamentals missing in this airline which is amazing considering the background (previously) required to get in. Maybe if the instructors talk about these concepts they are accused of teaching "technique."
Did you mean Angle of Attack? If so, getting the terminology correct might be a good start. Or are you trying to say a constant body angle is the way to do it??? Open Descent for a 1000ft descent into London is hardly going to be enough time for the aircraft to "wander thru the sky with large (or "wild") V/S variations." Sorry but it sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.
People who don't know how their cabin altitude management works...
Also scary that some pilots fly for hours thinking their engines might blow at any moment. Must be a nervous time on those ULRs.
It's not only this V/S thing; there seems to be a lot of airmanship/common sense fundamentals missing in this airline which is amazing considering the background (previously) required to get in. Maybe if the instructors talk about these concepts they are accused of teaching "technique."
wing pitch
People who don't know how their cabin altitude management works...
Also scary that some pilots fly for hours thinking their engines might blow at any moment. Must be a nervous time on those ULRs.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SOPS
I have to agree with Kennytheking. You worked here for many years, did you succumb to the 'EK management culture'? I think not. You, along with the majority of Captains operated the aircraft within SOPS but not afraid to use airmanship, apply good judgement and be resilient when needed. JAARule too, I'm sure.
It is a cultural issue as Kenny's stated, which is, I agree with you on this, the reason why we see some pitiful ASR's. There were some classics this week too. Those that submit these reports are probably the same individuals incapable of being flexible and using sound airmanship when required. The minute I feel that 'fear' is affecting my decisions as a Captain, I will leave this place in a heartbeat, Guaranteed!
Having said that, EK still has some way to go before it can claim to be a true 'JUST' culture. And apologies for misspelling earlier.......descent...decent...must be the vino!
Back to the thread?
Harry
I have to agree with Kennytheking. You worked here for many years, did you succumb to the 'EK management culture'? I think not. You, along with the majority of Captains operated the aircraft within SOPS but not afraid to use airmanship, apply good judgement and be resilient when needed. JAARule too, I'm sure.
It is a cultural issue as Kenny's stated, which is, I agree with you on this, the reason why we see some pitiful ASR's. There were some classics this week too. Those that submit these reports are probably the same individuals incapable of being flexible and using sound airmanship when required. The minute I feel that 'fear' is affecting my decisions as a Captain, I will leave this place in a heartbeat, Guaranteed!
Having said that, EK still has some way to go before it can claim to be a true 'JUST' culture. And apologies for misspelling earlier.......descent...decent...must be the vino!
Back to the thread?
Harry
Some of the more opinionated are not Ek.
PS. Can't remember bitching about turbo prop fellas.
PS. Can't remember bitching about turbo prop fellas.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Varies!
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dcbus
From what I've read, I don't think anyone has posted anything demeaning or derogatory about P2s or turboprop pilots. Maybe you're being a bit sensitive or reading too much into it.
In a few years from now, unless the crusty old Captains guide and mentor some of the less experienced joining us, the events we're discussing will become more prevalent and serious. We've all been there and hopefully have the brains and maturity to learn from our own past experiences in the right seat, both the good and the bad! Guide and suggest rather than direct is the ideal, although there may be occasions where the latter is required.
If that's the case, hopefully you too will have the maturity to accept it in the faith in which it was given! The day you stop learning in this profession is the day you stop flying.
From what I've read, I don't think anyone has posted anything demeaning or derogatory about P2s or turboprop pilots. Maybe you're being a bit sensitive or reading too much into it.
In a few years from now, unless the crusty old Captains guide and mentor some of the less experienced joining us, the events we're discussing will become more prevalent and serious. We've all been there and hopefully have the brains and maturity to learn from our own past experiences in the right seat, both the good and the bad! Guide and suggest rather than direct is the ideal, although there may be occasions where the latter is required.
If that's the case, hopefully you too will have the maturity to accept it in the faith in which it was given! The day you stop learning in this profession is the day you stop flying.
Whoa......there you go!