German Pilot Union has an open ear
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Quote:
never air your dirty laundry in public or with unknown entities unless you have exhausted all other internal possibilities first
Harry,
agreed!
but
after 12 years nothing has changed except it got worse, so I consider all internal possibilities as exhaused.
For sure its not to do dirty laundry in public but more to sharpen the public view on our problems.
I believe it is our responsibility to finally get things moving and to improve flight safety.
We owe it to our passengers.
never air your dirty laundry in public or with unknown entities unless you have exhausted all other internal possibilities first
Harry,
agreed!
but
after 12 years nothing has changed except it got worse, so I consider all internal possibilities as exhaused.
For sure its not to do dirty laundry in public but more to sharpen the public view on our problems.
I believe it is our responsibility to finally get things moving and to improve flight safety.
We owe it to our passengers.
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I disagree with Harry on the CR issue, but he's right in not believing in any help from the VC.
They fight for their T&Cs and jobs, to a lesser extent for safety. Any ammunition is most welcome, especially against the ME3, as they consider them the biggest threat to the above.
Now if we provide arguments to curtail the ME3 business and they would subsequently lay off pilots, would any of you think that the VC would accept stranded pilots from the pit as DEFO or DECs?
No way.
So think hard before you feed them.
They fight for their T&Cs and jobs, to a lesser extent for safety. Any ammunition is most welcome, especially against the ME3, as they consider them the biggest threat to the above.
Now if we provide arguments to curtail the ME3 business and they would subsequently lay off pilots, would any of you think that the VC would accept stranded pilots from the pit as DEFO or DECs?
No way.
So think hard before you feed them.
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Thinking that you can play a foreign union for your advantage on this - omg...
Lenin's "useful idiots" (said about the western communist sympathisers working for the Russians' benefit) springs into mind.
Be very careful out there, chaps.
Lenin's "useful idiots" (said about the western communist sympathisers working for the Russians' benefit) springs into mind.
Be very careful out there, chaps.
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A German Pilot Union will quite rightly have the interests of their own members far above the interests of pilots that work for a Middle Eastern airline that is viewed as a strong competitor.
Vereinigung Cockpit have been staunchly opposed to the new 'lower cost' longhaul operation that Lufthansa has launched with A340s to destinations such as MRU, MLE, MAA and funnily enough soon to PTY as well. Such routes were deemed to be not traditionally feasible and required a lower cost base, yet Emirates has been operating successfully to MRU,MLR and MAA for years. Lufthansa will be codesharing to and from PTY with Copa, just as Emirates will be doing.
I would love to be proved wrong but if Vereinigung Cockpit is offering an open ear to the complaints of EK pilots, I feel it is being done not with our interests at heart.
Vereinigung Cockpit have been staunchly opposed to the new 'lower cost' longhaul operation that Lufthansa has launched with A340s to destinations such as MRU, MLE, MAA and funnily enough soon to PTY as well. Such routes were deemed to be not traditionally feasible and required a lower cost base, yet Emirates has been operating successfully to MRU,MLR and MAA for years. Lufthansa will be codesharing to and from PTY with Copa, just as Emirates will be doing.
I would love to be proved wrong but if Vereinigung Cockpit is offering an open ear to the complaints of EK pilots, I feel it is being done not with our interests at heart.
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Competition
Glofish
you have a valid point. Of course it is much better for Emirates' business if they can continue to operate without proper regulatory oversight. But I don't think it is better for you as pilots. They have been continuously lowering the crew factor which now stands at about 7. Lufthansa long-haul has a crew factor of 10, Air France of 11.
Now if you imagine that Vereinigung Cockpit succeed in getting out the truth about this Emirates will be forced to raise the crew factor to a similar level. Legal rostering, flight safety and crew health would demand that. In my opinion Emirates can afford to do that. They have only been testing your limits because they can. The general advantage of a great product for the passengers and a convenient network hub would remain. If they were forced to raise the crew level to 10 that would be an additional 1,670 pilots today. I am sure they can get that number if all of you get back a decent lifestyle, tell your friends and post it here.
Or you can all keep quiet and help them increase your workload even more. You should then also follow TCAS' advice and not tell the truth on pprune anymore. After all that is what keeps newjoiners from coming - not the management decisions EK made ;-)
you have a valid point. Of course it is much better for Emirates' business if they can continue to operate without proper regulatory oversight. But I don't think it is better for you as pilots. They have been continuously lowering the crew factor which now stands at about 7. Lufthansa long-haul has a crew factor of 10, Air France of 11.
Now if you imagine that Vereinigung Cockpit succeed in getting out the truth about this Emirates will be forced to raise the crew factor to a similar level. Legal rostering, flight safety and crew health would demand that. In my opinion Emirates can afford to do that. They have only been testing your limits because they can. The general advantage of a great product for the passengers and a convenient network hub would remain. If they were forced to raise the crew level to 10 that would be an additional 1,670 pilots today. I am sure they can get that number if all of you get back a decent lifestyle, tell your friends and post it here.
Or you can all keep quiet and help them increase your workload even more. You should then also follow TCAS' advice and not tell the truth on pprune anymore. After all that is what keeps newjoiners from coming - not the management decisions EK made ;-)
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GCAA
To Harry: while the Chairman of Emirates is not the Head of the GCAA he does sit on the Board of Directors.
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/pages/boardofdirectors.aspx
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/pages/boardofdirectors.aspx
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1201alarm
I totally agree what you say.
Some guys just cannot think out of the box:
VC is internationally very well linked to all kind of Regulators and Agencies as well as Media.
e.g. IFALPA,CAA,EASA,ICAO,Flight Safety Organisation,FAA just to name a few.
So its about spreading the word of what is going on.
Better than complaining here on Pprune! Right?
Name me a better Organisation who can do the job.
We as line Pilots will hardly be heared by those high ranking institutions.
I totally agree what you say.
Some guys just cannot think out of the box:
VC is internationally very well linked to all kind of Regulators and Agencies as well as Media.
e.g. IFALPA,CAA,EASA,ICAO,Flight Safety Organisation,FAA just to name a few.
So its about spreading the word of what is going on.
Better than complaining here on Pprune! Right?
Name me a better Organisation who can do the job.
We as line Pilots will hardly be heared by those high ranking institutions.
Last edited by Talparc; 10th Feb 2016 at 16:31.
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For the German pilots' union
It is high time for ECA-backed unions to circumnavigate the inept ECA. There is an emergency going on in Europe, the fire warning bell is sounding, and the ECA is still fumbling around looking for the checklist!! I attach the following to illustrate the point:
http://youtu.be/PaOe_LVEF6M
http://youtu.be/KeCP338AOKM
http://youtu.be/vlmI10qjRds
...they may have a bit of humour to make them more digestible, but the point is absolutely serious!
http://youtu.be/PaOe_LVEF6M
http://youtu.be/KeCP338AOKM
http://youtu.be/vlmI10qjRds
...they may have a bit of humour to make them more digestible, but the point is absolutely serious!
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Talparc
I meant airline management and regulator should retrospect their past actions.
Harry
If I may refer to my analogy, at some point spouse has to call that hotline.
in freedom
I am not sure how the western CAAs overlooked conflict of interest issues in ME, while they are pounding India, Indonesia and Thailand on the same. I suppose huge plane orders has to do something.
I meant airline management and regulator should retrospect their past actions.
Harry
If I may refer to my analogy, at some point spouse has to call that hotline.
in freedom
I am not sure how the western CAAs overlooked conflict of interest issues in ME, while they are pounding India, Indonesia and Thailand on the same. I suppose huge plane orders has to do something.
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Harry do try to keep up! The DCAA handed over to the DAC last decade. That's the problem with turning to pprune for "experts"!
As for "dirty laundry," air it as much as you like. It's not your dirty laundry, it's the company's dirty laundry and you should have no need to feel any shame or protect the company from their own shame.
As for "dirty laundry," air it as much as you like. It's not your dirty laundry, it's the company's dirty laundry and you should have no need to feel any shame or protect the company from their own shame.
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JAARule
Almost 2 pages in without personal attacks.....let's keep it that way, shall we?
You know full well the intent of my post. The DCAA is still alive and kicking. All it's done is provide an offshoot called the DAC to run both DXB and DWC. The GCAA is a different entity altogether. The former organisation has HH as it's chairman, the latter doesn't. That was the point I was making. People often get confused between the two. I wasn't one of them. If you want to be facetious, JetBlast is the best forum for that.
As for the dirty laundry, our views will differ. My main angst is against those that constantly bleat on a public forum without first exhausting all possibilities from within. Frustrating it may be but at least there is a chance for change through highlighting various concerns. With reports, change may occur. Without reports, change will definitely not take place!
If you've followed the process and got nowhere, then you have the right to vent.
Harry
Almost 2 pages in without personal attacks.....let's keep it that way, shall we?
You know full well the intent of my post. The DCAA is still alive and kicking. All it's done is provide an offshoot called the DAC to run both DXB and DWC. The GCAA is a different entity altogether. The former organisation has HH as it's chairman, the latter doesn't. That was the point I was making. People often get confused between the two. I wasn't one of them. If you want to be facetious, JetBlast is the best forum for that.
As for the dirty laundry, our views will differ. My main angst is against those that constantly bleat on a public forum without first exhausting all possibilities from within. Frustrating it may be but at least there is a chance for change through highlighting various concerns. With reports, change may occur. Without reports, change will definitely not take place!
If you've followed the process and got nowhere, then you have the right to vent.
Harry
short flights long nights
But the GCAA has is HH on the board, do they not, Harry?
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Yes they do. He's also probably on the board of many Companies in Dubai. My response was to Talparc who thought he was the CEO of both Emirates Airlines and the regulatory body, the GCAA. He's not. And for what it's worth, the title is Chairman, not CEO.
I also said that I wasn't naive enough to assume he would not be influential in some way or another. Clear?
Harry
I also said that I wasn't naive enough to assume he would not be influential in some way or another. Clear?
Harry
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If I was a Lufthansa pilot then I would be nothing short of frustrated to see the union that I have financially contributed towards and supported over the years, now offering its assistance towards pilots based in the Middle East, so that their conditions can be improved when my own are at stake. Unions in Europe are finding it increasingly tougher to keep their members happy, which has been manifested in the recent industrial action with Lufthansa.
Vereinigung Cockpit doesn't have our interests as EK pilots at heart and quite rightly so, as a union should look after its own members first and foremost. Should they be willing to listen to our grievances, then it can only be to give them leverage in helping to slow or halt further EK expansion in Germany, which seems to have ground to a halt anyway. Lufthansa don't want us growing in Germany and neither do the Air Berlin/'Airline Down the Road' partnership either. That alone makes a powerful force within Germany.
If Vereinigung Cockpit was willing to listen to us and then used this 'ammunition' to discredit EK by whitewashing the company through the German press and/or by lobbying at a high level to prevent further EK expansion in Germany, then it is 'mission successful' as far as they are concerned. We would achieve next to nothing in the process.
I would love to see change in EK but I am a realist and getting cosy with a union in Germany is not the step we need to be making. Hard times are ahead in Dubai with petrol subsidies gone and sales tax coming. I personally am expecting nothing more than the contractual step to this years pay review in a few months. The public purse is being stretched in Dubai and I suspect any reasonable pay rise for us will be vetoed by the Sheikhs, as it apparently was last year. 2016 shall be interesting!
Vereinigung Cockpit doesn't have our interests as EK pilots at heart and quite rightly so, as a union should look after its own members first and foremost. Should they be willing to listen to our grievances, then it can only be to give them leverage in helping to slow or halt further EK expansion in Germany, which seems to have ground to a halt anyway. Lufthansa don't want us growing in Germany and neither do the Air Berlin/'Airline Down the Road' partnership either. That alone makes a powerful force within Germany.
If Vereinigung Cockpit was willing to listen to us and then used this 'ammunition' to discredit EK by whitewashing the company through the German press and/or by lobbying at a high level to prevent further EK expansion in Germany, then it is 'mission successful' as far as they are concerned. We would achieve next to nothing in the process.
I would love to see change in EK but I am a realist and getting cosy with a union in Germany is not the step we need to be making. Hard times are ahead in Dubai with petrol subsidies gone and sales tax coming. I personally am expecting nothing more than the contractual step to this years pay review in a few months. The public purse is being stretched in Dubai and I suspect any reasonable pay rise for us will be vetoed by the Sheikhs, as it apparently was last year. 2016 shall be interesting!
Last edited by Emma Royds; 10th Feb 2016 at 20:48.
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1202alarm:
fantastic post!!!
Some people just don't get it!
Sorry but arguing about a job title doesn't help us here.
We need a change, the faster the better!
Time is ticking and it looks like it's 5min past allready.
Or you wana watch the daily fading scenario of your QOL, Health, ToC?
Beeing honored with all kind of illegal warnings for the rest of your career.
Beeing forced to perform illegal Check in -Duty Times, using all kind of illegal variations and still be forced to use pilot discretion.
Doing 100h, falling asleep on short final while dreaming of your not granted leave.
Good Luck
Emma Royds:
This initiative was not set up by VC to harm any airline.
It was started by responsible actual and former colleagues of yours who want a change!
fantastic post!!!
Some people just don't get it!
Sorry but arguing about a job title doesn't help us here.
We need a change, the faster the better!
Time is ticking and it looks like it's 5min past allready.
Or you wana watch the daily fading scenario of your QOL, Health, ToC?
Beeing honored with all kind of illegal warnings for the rest of your career.
Beeing forced to perform illegal Check in -Duty Times, using all kind of illegal variations and still be forced to use pilot discretion.
Doing 100h, falling asleep on short final while dreaming of your not granted leave.
Good Luck
Emma Royds:
This initiative was not set up by VC to harm any airline.
It was started by responsible actual and former colleagues of yours who want a change!
Last edited by Talparc; 11th Feb 2016 at 08:28.
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If I was a Lufthansa pilot then I would be nothing short of frustrated to see the union that I have financially contributed towards and supported over the years, now offering its assistance towards pilots based in the Middle East, so that their conditions can be improved when my own are at stake. Unions in Europe are finding it increasingly tougher to keep their members happy, which has been manifested in the recent industrial action with Lufthansa.
Vereinigung Cockpit doesn't have our interests as EK pilots at heart and quite rightly so, as a union should look after its own members first and foremost. Should they be willing to listen to our grievances, then it can only be to give them leverage in helping to slow or halt further EK expansion in Germany, which seems to have ground to a halt anyway. Lufthansa don't want us growing in Germany and neither do the Air Berlin/'Airline Down the Road' partnership either. That alone makes a powerful force within Germany.
If Vereinigung Cockpit was willing to listen to us and then used this 'ammunition' to discredit EK by whitewashing the company through the German press and/or by lobbying at a high level to prevent further EK expansion in Germany, then it is 'mission successful' as far as they are concerned. We would achieve next to nothing in the process.
I would love to see change in EK but I am a realist and getting cosy with a union in Germany is not the step we need to be making. Hard times are ahead in Dubai with petrol subsidies gone and sales tax coming. I personally am expecting nothing more than the contractual step to this years pay review in a few months. The public purse is being stretched in Dubai and I suspect any reasonable pay rise for us will be vetoed by the Sheikhs, as it apparently was last year. 2016 shall be interesting!
Vereinigung Cockpit doesn't have our interests as EK pilots at heart and quite rightly so, as a union should look after its own members first and foremost. Should they be willing to listen to our grievances, then it can only be to give them leverage in helping to slow or halt further EK expansion in Germany, which seems to have ground to a halt anyway. Lufthansa don't want us growing in Germany and neither do the Air Berlin/'Airline Down the Road' partnership either. That alone makes a powerful force within Germany.
If Vereinigung Cockpit was willing to listen to us and then used this 'ammunition' to discredit EK by whitewashing the company through the German press and/or by lobbying at a high level to prevent further EK expansion in Germany, then it is 'mission successful' as far as they are concerned. We would achieve next to nothing in the process.
I would love to see change in EK but I am a realist and getting cosy with a union in Germany is not the step we need to be making. Hard times are ahead in Dubai with petrol subsidies gone and sales tax coming. I personally am expecting nothing more than the contractual step to this years pay review in a few months. The public purse is being stretched in Dubai and I suspect any reasonable pay rise for us will be vetoed by the Sheikhs, as it apparently was last year. 2016 shall be interesting!
While I would agree with you that Vereinigung Cockpit's motives may be a bit suspect, I would also point out that Emirates has gotten so big and influential in the industry that they are in effect "setting the bar" regarding employment practices, specifically for aircrew. I've often wondered why the world's legacy carriers, while quick to criticize EK for their commercial practices, have been relatively silent about EK's personnel practices (and to a lesser extent the free pass they seem to enjoy from their regulator) when the resulting productivity is surely a competitive advantage. Is it in the hope that they may one day enjoy approval for some of the same things (no leave, flight time factoring and unaccounted duty time to name a few)? I'm just speculating here but perhaps someone at Vereinigung Cockpit has realized that if something isn't done about these kinds of things, that they will soon be facing the prospect of some or all these practices on their properties.
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Brilliant post Gillegan.
There are no aspirations to make EK into a place worth working at such as the legacy carriers, it is exactly as you state: the BA's and Lufty management look wistfully at the way EK drives their workforce into the ground and wish they could do the same.
I for one welcome one and all bedfellows no matter how strange, to try and fight back against the sociopaths currently running the show at EK.
Meanwhile the harry's tut tut about airing dirty laundry. The stakes are so far beyond that now it's amusing to see any concern about such trivialities.
Stranger alliances have been formed. I would gladly tell ANY party about the goings on at EK but the hardest part might be getting them to be believed. Witness the wannabes on this forum alone.
There are no aspirations to make EK into a place worth working at such as the legacy carriers, it is exactly as you state: the BA's and Lufty management look wistfully at the way EK drives their workforce into the ground and wish they could do the same.
I for one welcome one and all bedfellows no matter how strange, to try and fight back against the sociopaths currently running the show at EK.
Meanwhile the harry's tut tut about airing dirty laundry. The stakes are so far beyond that now it's amusing to see any concern about such trivialities.
Stranger alliances have been formed. I would gladly tell ANY party about the goings on at EK but the hardest part might be getting them to be believed. Witness the wannabes on this forum alone.
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Nolimit, whilst I now have no horse in this derby, I agree with you whole heartedly. Whats worth reminding everyone is that the current bunch of dumbkoffs at EK have no incentive to improve things, and if true, they are being actively discouraged from even considering improvements.
Remember there is a culture of fear even amongst the management mafia as well as the view that flightcrew are overpaid primadonas' who are to be ruthlessly exploited and dispised.
I often get PM's from people asking me if the stories on here are accurate, I always tell them the same thing, I tell them no, I tell them its worse and that the reason its worse is that most pilots despite their moans are a positive and enlightened bunch who are generally optimistic. I then go on to say that in EKs case this has mostly gone, that there is no goodwill anymore and that its worse, its worse because by the time they get there after ignoring all the good honest accurate advice, it will be.
Remember there is a culture of fear even amongst the management mafia as well as the view that flightcrew are overpaid primadonas' who are to be ruthlessly exploited and dispised.
I often get PM's from people asking me if the stories on here are accurate, I always tell them the same thing, I tell them no, I tell them its worse and that the reason its worse is that most pilots despite their moans are a positive and enlightened bunch who are generally optimistic. I then go on to say that in EKs case this has mostly gone, that there is no goodwill anymore and that its worse, its worse because by the time they get there after ignoring all the good honest accurate advice, it will be.
