Emirates DEC
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Nope, but there are countries where the conditions and the pay are much worse. For a russian captain, the terms and conditions might look much better then at home.
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ExDubai
For a russian captain, the terms and conditions might look much better then at home.
For a russian captain, the terms and conditions might look much better then at home.
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Pilots on final salary pension wont listen to what you are saying here. They will come for a couple of years fun in the sun.
They can always call sick ?
Then bugger off after 2 yrs, why not?
Was the same elsewhere . If you got decent pension then no worries.
And if the 380 is an option , EK will be flooded with applications , agree ?
They can always call sick ?
Then bugger off after 2 yrs, why not?
Was the same elsewhere . If you got decent pension then no worries.
And if the 380 is an option , EK will be flooded with applications , agree ?
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Now Korean Airlines is also accepting pilots DEC and FO for the A380 fleet, are they going. So maybe more problems for EK in the future with the PIC's. Offering 12 days OFF consecutive per month, I know many people talks bad about KE but maybe some of them decide to move.
A380 CAPTAIN ? 12 CONSECUTIVE DAYS OFF PER MONTH - Sigma Sigma » Blog Archive
How are the senior FO going to react to this new DEC for B777 offer??
A380 CAPTAIN ? 12 CONSECUTIVE DAYS OFF PER MONTH - Sigma Sigma » Blog Archive
How are the senior FO going to react to this new DEC for B777 offer??
Join Date: Sep 2007
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I think we can look at JA's letter two ways.
First off at least he had the gonads to issue it, normally the first we hear of it is the advert in Flight International.
Second it is an admission of management failure Big Style, and Time, in that their policies in regards to pay, QOL etc etc etc, with their arrogance that EK is some golden airline, and if it's here, they will come.
Well, they are not coming, sure the desperate will as they have no choice, but DEC on the A330 is a slow death sentence.
DEC on the B777 will just piss off a large number of experienced F/o's who through no fault of their own will suffer, as we just can't get enough F/o's through the door to release them for upgrade.
This has a feel of the band played on, as the Titanic slid majestically beneath the waves. They have to be seen to be doing something, even though the supertanker that is EK is heading for its own iceberg.
First off at least he had the gonads to issue it, normally the first we hear of it is the advert in Flight International.
Second it is an admission of management failure Big Style, and Time, in that their policies in regards to pay, QOL etc etc etc, with their arrogance that EK is some golden airline, and if it's here, they will come.
Well, they are not coming, sure the desperate will as they have no choice, but DEC on the A330 is a slow death sentence.
DEC on the B777 will just piss off a large number of experienced F/o's who through no fault of their own will suffer, as we just can't get enough F/o's through the door to release them for upgrade.
This has a feel of the band played on, as the Titanic slid majestically beneath the waves. They have to be seen to be doing something, even though the supertanker that is EK is heading for its own iceberg.
Cuillin Hills (or anyone else in the know),
"PS Heard that DEC BA @ LGW might be opening up sooner rather than later."
If you'd excuse and indulge an interested observer a moment of thread drift, are you saying that your long-established legacy carrier, British Airways, will/might be taking on DECs ?
Assuming a seniority list is in effect there, how would DECs jive with the seniority system that would normally govern attempts at upgrade for existing FOs ?
I get the impression I've misunderstood something here.
Thanks...
"PS Heard that DEC BA @ LGW might be opening up sooner rather than later."
If you'd excuse and indulge an interested observer a moment of thread drift, are you saying that your long-established legacy carrier, British Airways, will/might be taking on DECs ?
Assuming a seniority list is in effect there, how would DECs jive with the seniority system that would normally govern attempts at upgrade for existing FOs ?
I get the impression I've misunderstood something here.
Thanks...
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MISSING THE POINT
DEC’s are an inevitability given the circumstances and in principle justifiable for any airline. The letter is at least a heads up that the decision has been formally made and probably an attempt to control the many rumors that generally surrounds this type of event.
It’s out in the open and plainly explained. However I think most of the posters on this forum are perhaps missing the subtext and once again being distracted by the magicians in the bouncy castle.
The general context on this forum is that those management types are a bunch of incompetent idiots who make one mistake after another. Nothing could be further from the truth. The minds up there that manipulate the T&C’s the FTL’s etc are very smart and light years ahead of general pilot group. They have the following advantages:
This is not peculiar to this company, it is a growing phenomenon of the 21st century where ever bigger companies have the clout to push through what they like with little objection of the various regulatory authorities whose very job is to control the power of large entities. In this era authorities are lobbied and bought. It eventually results in tears but the minions do the crying.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a supporter of those who design and support these changes. I believe what goes on is immoral, manipulative, and usurious and flies in the face of all that is good, honest and human. I would rather have less but be able to look at myself in the mirror. However to call them stupid IS stupid.
But back to the debate and my own suspicions; perhaps publicizing the basic decision of recruiting DEC is with the deliberate intention to distract those affected with the outrage that is evident. Angry people tend not to think and become myopic.
I believe the focus should be on what has not been said. And acknowledging the reasons they can get all the DEC’s they like, contrary to some views posted.
In one word: money.
What is promised is that “career paths will not be adversely affected”. What is not mentioned is the salary at which the DEC’s will enter on. That is up to discussion and negotiation. At all grades of employment in the company, the salary has a bracket. The company will advertise and offer the lowest (obviously) but are able to vary this, depending on how much they like and need the candidate. HR must have the ability to negotiate with any new employees.
Likewise within the pilot pay scales this can be done and has been done in the past.
Pilot salaries are from Step 1 to 30. A third year FO getting upgraded goes from level 3 up 12 steps to level 15. Logically one would then surmise that a DEC should come in at Step 13, as if he came in at Step 1 and a day later jumped 12 steps. Do the math on the figures on the employment site and this will be evident. Step 13 is exactly what they advertise less 85 flying hours. (As an aside, it is worth noting that 85 block hours a month, as advertised, is 1020 a year. That is the expectation of us all and should ring bells with prospective pilots looking at the type of flying on the A330 and B777 while factoring in life in Dubai in general)
Everyone seems to assume the salary for a DEC would be lower than existing captains and would fit into some equitable schedule. In fact this used to be the case, for many years the salary scale was transparently published with explanatory notes. Shortly before the initial large DEC intake this quietly disappeared taking the published system with it.
However, if the company needs DEC’s enough there is nothing to stop them employing at, say, level 20. If an FO employed on Step 1, finally gets his upgrade after 4 years of being here he will jump to level 17. However the upgraded FO will forever be behind on salary even though he did his RHS time, is senior and is also now a captain.
The question has never been whether they will take DEC’s and lamenting the injustices of being held back. No - the question should be “What will they be paid?” and “When I make it to Captain after swallowing the bitter pill of “operational or training need” will I be the same or better off than the DEC?”
Those are the real questions I would be asking. And openly publishing that the ultimate outcome will be kept in an equitable financial order would be the right and sensible thing to do.
It’s out in the open and plainly explained. However I think most of the posters on this forum are perhaps missing the subtext and once again being distracted by the magicians in the bouncy castle.
The general context on this forum is that those management types are a bunch of incompetent idiots who make one mistake after another. Nothing could be further from the truth. The minds up there that manipulate the T&C’s the FTL’s etc are very smart and light years ahead of general pilot group. They have the following advantages:
- Many of them are more experienced in a management role. They do this all day and learn.
- They have access to information and statistics that employees don’t have.
- They have the benefit of synergy. Most options are discussed and deliberated in teams.
- They have the benefit of technology. Scenarios, cost outcomes, crewing are all trial run on software.
- Their planning is not reactive. Often it is strategized years in advance and changes made subtly and over time to the final outcome. The pilots react to each itemized change rather than the macro change.
- They are coherent, briefed and hold a common “business case” line. Employees react individually, emotionally, without full facts.
- They have the communications and broadcast ability to propagate and support decisions and the given reasoning. They can spin the public perception. Likewise they have the ability to ignore, obfuscate or muzzle any dissent.
- They have the authority and the power. Agencies can authorize, lawyers can support.
This is not peculiar to this company, it is a growing phenomenon of the 21st century where ever bigger companies have the clout to push through what they like with little objection of the various regulatory authorities whose very job is to control the power of large entities. In this era authorities are lobbied and bought. It eventually results in tears but the minions do the crying.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a supporter of those who design and support these changes. I believe what goes on is immoral, manipulative, and usurious and flies in the face of all that is good, honest and human. I would rather have less but be able to look at myself in the mirror. However to call them stupid IS stupid.
But back to the debate and my own suspicions; perhaps publicizing the basic decision of recruiting DEC is with the deliberate intention to distract those affected with the outrage that is evident. Angry people tend not to think and become myopic.
I believe the focus should be on what has not been said. And acknowledging the reasons they can get all the DEC’s they like, contrary to some views posted.
In one word: money.
What is promised is that “career paths will not be adversely affected”. What is not mentioned is the salary at which the DEC’s will enter on. That is up to discussion and negotiation. At all grades of employment in the company, the salary has a bracket. The company will advertise and offer the lowest (obviously) but are able to vary this, depending on how much they like and need the candidate. HR must have the ability to negotiate with any new employees.
Likewise within the pilot pay scales this can be done and has been done in the past.
Pilot salaries are from Step 1 to 30. A third year FO getting upgraded goes from level 3 up 12 steps to level 15. Logically one would then surmise that a DEC should come in at Step 13, as if he came in at Step 1 and a day later jumped 12 steps. Do the math on the figures on the employment site and this will be evident. Step 13 is exactly what they advertise less 85 flying hours. (As an aside, it is worth noting that 85 block hours a month, as advertised, is 1020 a year. That is the expectation of us all and should ring bells with prospective pilots looking at the type of flying on the A330 and B777 while factoring in life in Dubai in general)
Everyone seems to assume the salary for a DEC would be lower than existing captains and would fit into some equitable schedule. In fact this used to be the case, for many years the salary scale was transparently published with explanatory notes. Shortly before the initial large DEC intake this quietly disappeared taking the published system with it.
However, if the company needs DEC’s enough there is nothing to stop them employing at, say, level 20. If an FO employed on Step 1, finally gets his upgrade after 4 years of being here he will jump to level 17. However the upgraded FO will forever be behind on salary even though he did his RHS time, is senior and is also now a captain.
The question has never been whether they will take DEC’s and lamenting the injustices of being held back. No - the question should be “What will they be paid?” and “When I make it to Captain after swallowing the bitter pill of “operational or training need” will I be the same or better off than the DEC?”
Those are the real questions I would be asking. And openly publishing that the ultimate outcome will be kept in an equitable financial order would be the right and sensible thing to do.
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Cuillin Hills (or anyone else in the know),
"PS Heard that DEC BA @ LGW might be opening up sooner rather than later."
If you'd excuse and indulge an interested observer a moment of thread drift, are you saying that your long-established legacy carrier, British Airways, will/might be taking on DECs ?
Assuming a seniority list is in effect there, how would DECs jive with the seniority system that would normally govern attempts at upgrade for existing FOs ?
I get the impression I've misunderstood something here.
Thanks...
"PS Heard that DEC BA @ LGW might be opening up sooner rather than later."
If you'd excuse and indulge an interested observer a moment of thread drift, are you saying that your long-established legacy carrier, British Airways, will/might be taking on DECs ?
Assuming a seniority list is in effect there, how would DECs jive with the seniority system that would normally govern attempts at upgrade for existing FOs ?
I get the impression I've misunderstood something here.
Thanks...
Yes.
Expansion at LGW (London Gatwick) and a big lack of volunteers from the mainline ranks means there is a very high likelihood of requirements for A320 DECs into BA in the near future.
Check with any BA flight deck colleagues to have this confirmed.
BA will have gone through to the bottom of the seniority list and looked at the bidding and there will still be a number of vacancies for A320 captains at LGW - hence DEC.
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Pixy
We cannot dispute that our management are brilliant at running a very profitable airline but they are atrocious in how they manage their own staff. Would we be seeing more DECs now if there were sufficient F/Os who were suitable and wanting to join the company, as there are many F/Os with the experience for promotion at present? One could argue that the announcement of DECs coming is a great example of a reactive decision, which demonstrates little forethought. All the good qualities that management should possess as listed by yourself, are in abundance within our own management in a commercial context but are sadly lacking, when it comes to how they manage their own people.
The situation that we are now in is one that seems to create little anger amongst F/Os, as the general feeling is perhaps one of despondency. The email from JA announced something that has been the subject of rumour and discussion for months. It was something that many of us were expecting and it came as little surprise.
As I see it, management are dealing their last card from their deck with the decision to recruit DECs. If they can't recruit the number that they need, then they face a problem and perhaps a serious one too. As they say desperate times require desperate measures. Could these desperate measures involve offering new DEC joiners more than what the company would be inclined to initially offer? I personally wouldn't be at all surprised if so.
As for the wider discussion involving Malaysians or Russians joining, then I can't see there being many despite the woes within those countries. It's just too competitive at the moment for 330 and 777 pilots, with plenty of other options around. Some being a lot closer to home for the Malaysians as well. The one thing that could pose a hurdle for Russians is their English proficiency along with the autocratic management style that seems to be so common on the flight deck in that part of the world.
The next few months will be very interesting indeed.
We cannot dispute that our management are brilliant at running a very profitable airline but they are atrocious in how they manage their own staff. Would we be seeing more DECs now if there were sufficient F/Os who were suitable and wanting to join the company, as there are many F/Os with the experience for promotion at present? One could argue that the announcement of DECs coming is a great example of a reactive decision, which demonstrates little forethought. All the good qualities that management should possess as listed by yourself, are in abundance within our own management in a commercial context but are sadly lacking, when it comes to how they manage their own people.
The situation that we are now in is one that seems to create little anger amongst F/Os, as the general feeling is perhaps one of despondency. The email from JA announced something that has been the subject of rumour and discussion for months. It was something that many of us were expecting and it came as little surprise.
As I see it, management are dealing their last card from their deck with the decision to recruit DECs. If they can't recruit the number that they need, then they face a problem and perhaps a serious one too. As they say desperate times require desperate measures. Could these desperate measures involve offering new DEC joiners more than what the company would be inclined to initially offer? I personally wouldn't be at all surprised if so.
As for the wider discussion involving Malaysians or Russians joining, then I can't see there being many despite the woes within those countries. It's just too competitive at the moment for 330 and 777 pilots, with plenty of other options around. Some being a lot closer to home for the Malaysians as well. The one thing that could pose a hurdle for Russians is their English proficiency along with the autocratic management style that seems to be so common on the flight deck in that part of the world.
The next few months will be very interesting indeed.
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