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Lowered requirements Emirates

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Lowered requirements Emirates

Old 6th Aug 2015, 11:13
  #161 (permalink)  
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It will never happen. Never.
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 14:23
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Just a few comments on hiring ATPL holders with 1500 hrs: (IMHO)

1. Won't this help FOs upgrade quicker? Isn't that a good thing?

2. I remember when I was a green turboprop pilot droning around hoping that my 2200hrs counted for something; hoping to land that dream job. Isn't this move then a good thing for them? This is 'their moment'. Let's not spoil it.

3. Okay so the jet is bigger than a Dash 8, or a DHC6; and yes they will face a few challenges along the way, but I know of at least 1 guy who went from a little turboprop to a big jet and made it without too many issues. That guy was me.

4. To those on the forum who feel it is their right to slander whomever they want; please don't slander the training department or anyone else for that matter. If you've had a bad experience, you are in the minority and your comments may not be representative of the entire pilot group. They are still our colleagues and do the best with what they have in bringing guys up to speed. The 2 stripe pilots (< 1500 hrs) that I fly with are professional, polite and knowledgable. Stick and rudder skills; pretty good considering their experience levels. No problems there.

5. Concerning the "pay rise" and "what we should have got." Correct me if I'm wrong, but no where on my signed contract (with the gold lettering), does it say that the company is obligated to give me one. I see the 'step increment' clause, I see the 'possibility' of a 'profit share', but nothing else.

I signed THAT contract knowing full well that if the company chooses not to give me pay raise for all my years of service, it would be well within their right to do so. Apart from the annual step increment, they are under no obligation contractually to raise my salary. So hearing quotes of "20-30%" is a little unrealistic, IMHO. Have they raised it over the years? Most definitely.

6. Finally to the guys who are coming with their ATPLs; I will shake your hand and welcome you. I will answer your questions if I know the answer to them, otherwise I'll refer you to the FAQs. The girls are pretty, but remember the wives and kids that you brought along with you. The best financial advice someone ever gave me is to "leave with the same wife you joined with." Better investment that gold right now... Don't get me started.

Mostly I just want to read the paper and enjoy my coffee. If I'm napping, try not request weather or the ATIS (it's automated now you know). Refer to the Notam package, avoid the red and amber returns on the weather radar, and try to avoid level changes if at all possible. Communication will be your biggest challenge; multiple cultures languages, accents. You can fly whichever sector you want, and if I need to take the landing off you because of the weather, I will. Please don't be offended.

The jets are lovely, the rosters are sometimes tough, pluses and minuses all round. No such thing as a perfect airline. If you find one, go ahead and join it; but not for me thanks. I may mess it up.

Safe travels to us all.

SiE
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 14:26
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Ps. I'm not management; nor am I in training.
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 14:45
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Ps. I'm not management; nor am I in training
... but just as much undesirable in the LHS if my family travels home.
What aload of cr@p, sorry.
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 15:02
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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glofish please elaborate your concern
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 15:34
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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SIE

So much there I would take a week but I'll just stick with this:

Mostly I just want to read the paper and enjoy my coffee. If I'm napping, try not request weather or the ATIS (it's automated now you know). Refer to the Notam package, avoid the red and amber returns on the weather radar, and try to avoid level changes if at all possible. Communication will be your biggest challenge; multiple cultures languages, accents. You can fly whichever sector you want, and if I need to take the landing off you because of the weather, I will. Please don't be offended.

The jets are lovely, the rosters are sometimes tough, pluses and minuses all round. No such thing as a perfect airline. If you find one, go ahead and join it; but not for me thanks. I may mess it up.
If you're napping, then he might have to get weather and disturb you. Of course, if it's your 5th or 6th night turn in 10 days then you won't wake up with the sound of the paper ripping. You might not be able to get to sleep because it's monsoon season, or typhoon season, or the middle of summer in Africa.

Read the NOTAM pack and without experience, you will believe what you're reading. Of course, for most of the stations we go to, the NOTAMs are written with the express intent of being confusing because the airport is seen as being more important if it has 8 (or was it 9?) pages of NOTAMs, most of which are in fact wrong and out of date. With experience, you will learn that there is a way of reading NOTAMs around these parts that will open your eyes to what you're really about to fly towards at 550mph. And you might need to know exactly what you're doing, because the skipper might be using most of his energy trying to stay awake. Try doing that when you have 500 hours.

Avoid the red and amber returns. How about when you can't, because it's monsoon season or you're on the RNAV for 07R in Addis and there's a f**king huge CB everywhere you go? If your skipper is asleep while you're in the cruise, how about the experience you don't have as a low hours joiner that tells you how useless the weather radar is, and that experience you lack that will make you avoid the 'just' green bit on a black night because you know from experience that it shouldn't be green?

Communication will NOT be your biggest challenge. Communication is just one of your many, many challenges in the following destinations:

- Mumbai
- Delhi
- Peshawar
- Sialkot
- Madinah
- Addis
- Harare and Lusaka
- Khartoum
- Nairobi
- Tehran
- Cochin

To name but a few, most of which will, if they are not already, be winging their way to a T7 strapped to you in the near future. Flying into all of those throws up challenges way, way more advanced than anything you could see in an entire career in a Euro/US regional/LCC - where mistakes will be handled sympathetically (of course, whether they should be or not is your opinion) and there are most likely far fewer restrictions on how you are permitted to operate the aeroplane.

I'm pretty sure that flying a 380 into PEK, JFK etc has challenges at least as significant as communication. But at least you're not being turned over by the wake your're leaving for the guys behind you!

You probably will have to take landings off guys, but those landings and the ones they are not permitted to carry out limits their exposure and as such leads them down the path to command without giving them suitable opportunity to hone their skills. A challenge to manage in a big airline, but I'm pretty sure there is a better way than our way. Perhaps by letting 3 stripers do 20Kt crosswind landings for example?

The rosters are sometimes tough?! I've been having a look at rosters and unless you're on the 380 then the rosters SUCK! You're either in the aeroplane every hour of your life (and are credited with half that) or you fly less but every single one of your 10 or 11 trips are night turns and you spends your wonderful 18 non-flying (not XX!) days zombified because you can't remember if normal people are supposed to sleep during the night or the day. That wasn't in the contract and the company gives new joiners the impression that it isn't the case. That is plain wrong.

But you are right on one thing, there is no such thing as a perfect airline. Most guys who have read you post, however, would probably argue that some airlines are a damn sight closer to it than others.

And the jets aren't all lovely...

Last edited by 170to5; 6th Aug 2015 at 16:10.
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 16:45
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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170 to 5,

You mean they might will have something to learn just like you did two years ago?

No difference to a turbo prop fella to a 2000hr jet wonder kid. Apart from maybe his first job didn't cost as much if he was Euro based.
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 16:46
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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OK then, i'll explain:

1. Won't this help FOs upgrade quicker? Isn't that a good thing?
Not always. If the future 1500h guy upgrades after 4 years, then flies with a 250h ab initio cadet, we will travel on very thin experience on heavy equipment in a very demanding environment.
Basically this is a rather silly rhetorical question!

2. I remember when I was a green turboprop pilot droning around hoping that my 2200hrs counted for something; hoping to land that dream job. Isn't this move then a good thing for them? This is 'their moment'. Let's not spoil it.
As I stated some pages above, it might be so, in a sane environment with adapted training. However with what exists here at EK it spoils ‘our moment’ for the ones who have to deal with very reduced experience on line. At least let me the freedom to criticise that, Sir!

3. Okay so the jet is bigger than a Dash 8, or a DHC6; and yes they will face a few challenges along the way, but I know of at least 1 guy who went from a little turboprop to a big jet and made it without too many issues. That guy was me.
Just one paragraph below you tell us not to do something because any personal experience is a minority experience, thus not representative, thus to shut up. Nevertheless you adopt it right here to try to prove something …… so much for consistency.


4. To those on the forum who feel it is their right to slander whomever they want; please don't slander the training department or anyone else for that matter. If you've had a bad experience, you are in the minority and your comments may not be representative of the entire pilot group. They are still our colleagues and do the best with what they have in bringing guys up to speed. The 2 stripe pilots (< 1500 hrs) that I fly with are professional, polite and knowledgable. Stick and rudder skills; pretty good considering their experience levels. No problems there.
Even being our colleagues, it can’t shield them from criticism. If our trainers are often too young (in experience) or too … you know what … to realize that they should not be in training, fact is that the syllabus is not adapted for pilots of that little experience and it is not going to change. So allow us to criticise, please Sir!
Stick and rudder skills 'good enough considering previous experience' is simply not enough and not what I would expect in the RHS with a T7 or 380. Accepting that is imho not very professional and does not help our cause.

5. Concerning the "pay rise" and "what we should have got." Correct me if I'm wrong, but no where on my signed contract (with the gold lettering), does it say that the company is obligated to give me one. I see the 'step increment' clause, I see the 'possibility' of a 'profit share', but nothing else.
As we are a government entity, the company is synonymous to the government. Applying your logic, the company/gvt is just as little obliged to increase the price of fuel, schooling and so forth. It is simply a matter of a national morale to attempt to balance income and expenses, and this is accepted worldwide, across almost all cultures, at least the civilized ones.
No contract covers that, again making this argument futile.

For the rest of this ‘contribution’ there is no need to elaborate.
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 16:52
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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don

Yep, like you did when you joined (although we both had more than 1500 hours when we arrived).

I would argue, though, that for identical experience levels, having a jet rating might be a very useful advantage...unless you are trying to compare a 2000 hour 320 F/O to a 6/7000 hour Dash 8 skipper? That seems a bit unfair, doesn't it? Besides, the jet F/O has probably managed 400 or 500 sectors each year, in much the same sh*t weather as his TP mate in his first 3 years on the job. My issue is with lack of experience, not weight restrictions, that's why I didn't mention anything about them in that post there.

Nor did I make any mention whatsoever of TP or Jet experience in my post

(And there are still some airlines that don't charge you for TR's, by the way)

Last edited by 170to5; 6th Aug 2015 at 18:30.
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 18:34
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Lowered requirements Emirates

Glowworm, What do you think the success rate of the National Cadet program is? If a guy staring from zero, does fine, then surely a guy with 1500 would do better? Just thinking logically.

Upgrade time is around 6, 7k, I can't remember. So, 5 years in the right seat flying the network would be enough time to consolidate IMHO. Just saying...

EK is NOT a govt. airline (in the strictest sense of the term) and her employees are not govt. employees. A little research will reveal the facts. I though you were joking and after reading how serious you were, I had to stifle the laugh.

In an ideal world, lots of experience is great in both seats, but the industry is cyclical. We may for a while have lots of experience and a lack of jobs. Now we have a market where there are more jobs going around and not a lot of experience. The market is dictating things here, not the airlines.

Throwing money at the problem may have helped, I don't know. Way above my pay grade. But considering UAE revenues being down, the price of oil is $47 a barrel, subsidies on fuel are history, strong U.S. dollar, FED Rates rise on the horizon, most airlines would exercise caution, and conduct a risk evaluation. Nice thinking.

The risk factor in low time guys is already tried and tested with the cadet program, plus me, that 1 guy remember? Like I said earlier; if through the years we have had success with 0 time guys, then surely guys with 1500 hours would be a safe bet. I don't know why we didn't do this sooner.

Listen Glofish, I like you. I admire your spirit and concern for your family but maybe you're taking this all way too seriously. Rest assured, you'll be in safe hands with a 2 striper or someone with 1500hrs. Just 1 tip though considering your concern for the lack of experience; maybe before you send them on holidays next time, check if you have a 2 striper on board and if so, just to be safe, send them on the next flight. This, to be consistent. There's a French word for that... Never mind.

Airlines these days are masters at managing risk. Let the managers manage; you and I just fly the nice big jets. Just offering a humble assessment based on what I have witnessed. But then again, my opinion doesn't count... And to be honest, that's fine by me. Where's that Gulf news again?

Safe travels to us all.

SiE

Last edited by Sheikh-It-Easy; 6th Aug 2015 at 19:57.
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 18:40
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Lowered requirements

Lets look at it at both sides of the coin.

When Emirates commenced operations with its own aircraft , they decided to break from the norm of limiting themselves to just taking British, Australians, Canadians , License Holders. Previously these Pilots had the monopoly in airlines like , Gulf air ,Air Brunei , Kuwait airways and Far East Carriers. A lot of "ho ha" was raised about compromising on safety standards and sops etc .
Fast forward 30 years and 'touch wood" , EK is now a case study on how an airline with such a large mix of nationalities and pilots licences have managed to maintain an enviable safety record. Mind you there have been some close calls, yet it is due to the crews professionalism and situational awareness of the crew that saved the day. Lessons have been learned
We have then had another "hue and cry" about various professionals from the southern hemisphere and lack of standards and professionalism. Yet Emirates inducted the best of those and they have proved to be an asset . Some who have gone on to join the Training and Audit departments and applied them selves well.
Again we now are hearing further rumblings of "lowering of standards " and lack of experience of turbo prop pilots etc. I would tend to disagree. Emirates has a history of employing pilots who have had no airline experience,only single pilot jet experience , turbo prop military experience, military jet experience ( with no glass cockpit 707 /AWAC) experience , and also regional jet ( commuter ) experience. All of these entries have successfully gone through a rigorous selection process and online training experience prior to release. Emirates already has a well embedded Cadet Training program and a Limited experience training program. I'm confident that the Training program can be adjusted to meet the requirement of Turbo Prop induction to Emirates .
Lets not underestimate the Turbo Prop pilot. Most turbo prop aircrafts are now glass cockpit and a capable of flying P-RNAV Dep and approaches and are frequently required to fly into airports with LOW vis operations. Combined with that ,Turbo prop pilots frequently fly into more challenging destinations with little or no facilities and are often left to fend for themselves. The Challenge for Emirates is to groom these candidates to quickly assimilate themselves into EK world wide ops of SAT Phones , ACARS and Checking back with Network control , while employing a decision making model that has an awareness not only on safety , but on operational efficiency and the impact on whole operation of the Emirates Network when one aircraft comes off the network.

So yes I'm sure those who have some misgivings about turbo prop pilots are somewhat correct if they were talking of some other airline. However this has to be taken in context with the relative demand and supply of the market and Emirates experience with inducting and training low time and limited experience pilots .With the current time to move from left to right increasing from the 4 -5 +years ,gives sufficient opportunity for the Turbo Prop Pilots to learn and prepare themselves for the challenging role of a Commanding an Emirates aircraft

So to Recap : Lets not short change our Turbo prop pilots. Emirates will still follow a strict interview process. They will have a modified training program .Their progress will be monitored and future inductions will be fine tuned. With over 120 odd destinations ( Polar Routes, Atlantic Crossings , Far East, Africa , South America Europe, Asia and the Middle East) and counting and right hand experience of 4-5 years on type ( 3500-4000hrs) before getting command should be more than sufficient preparation for them to take up the challenge for the Left seat

BM

Last edited by bigmountain; 6th Aug 2015 at 18:47. Reason: clarity
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 22:09
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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In the application form they ask (mandatory) for ``Date of last Pilot Proficiency Check``.

I don't have any PPC because I fly a privately owned aircraft. What do you do in this situation?

thanx
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Old 6th Aug 2015, 23:32
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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arvida,

If you have applied it means you have jet aircraft experience. Then for sure you have to go for recurrent training based on your kind of operation.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 01:48
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It's been a while since I've participated in a Pprune thread. I stopped reading this one at Page 3.

120feet
You have a TP guy with 2000 hours sitting next to you over deepest darkest Africa, in an airplane that may be 100 times heavier, fly 3 times faster and take 10 times the runway to stop then what he just stepped out of, and facing weather he has never seen. As a TP he will have very little to offer except SOP regurgitation, which will get you through 95% of it.


I've flown turboprops (B1900D/B200) for the last 3 years, at night 70% of the time, over deepest darkest Africa, avoiding massive thunderstorms at 25,000ft. So what?

Opposite example I have for you: We had hired a 8000h B737NG pilot in our company and we had to get rid of him as he had too many issues flying the B1900D!

If a lot of companies hire cadets with a CPL and 250hTT, and put them directly on a A320, why wouldn't a turboprop pilot be a good hire? It's all about Training, Attitude and then Experience!
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 02:48
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Jumbo

Emirates philosophy and those of us who came when the MINIMUM was 4000 hrs - was we can 'train' an 'experienced' pilot with the right 'attitude'. Your philosophy slightly different.

As Oscar Wilde said:
"Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes"

You see making a mistake with 19 people on board is different than with 500.

Ones a footnote, the other a headline.

Give it a decade or two...you will come around.

I'm posting less and less on here ..I expect that trend will continue.
I don't recognize the n/hood anymore...eyebrows raising every time I log on - so many young 'uns with all the answers. What do I know - I'm an old fart now to some of the gel heads in the RHS.

But I can't help but wonder as I look at the top floors of HQ;
"For goodeness sake stop this"
An incredible airline is becoming a great big exodus for some of the finest and most experienced long haul airline pilots on the planet....

...and an entry point for the polar opposite.

There will be tears.

f.

Last edited by fliion; 7th Aug 2015 at 03:45.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 04:39
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Lowered requirements Emirates

Big Mountain gets ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ for his post. The entry requirements have changed and are here to stay. The training program I'm sure will be amended for them as it is for the cadets in order to bring them up to speed.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 05:07
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Sheik you say if an airline can take a zero time cadet it surly can take a 1500 tp pilot. Maybe it can with a good and long training program.
However I'll point out to the lesser informed the National Cadets receive years of sectors and training that would be cost prohibited to a non UAE citizen. Cadets receive somewhere around 60 sectors just in the jump seat, then 80 non flying sectors and another 120 sectors were they alternate between FP and PM. Those numbers are ball parked but my point is obvious to all with a brain that is just unstainable to any airline unless it was paid for by someone else, in this case the DXB Governement.
If EK paid a descent wage and treated us fairly they would not have to lower their standards and we would all be happy.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 05:14
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A mistake is a mistake . Problem is the 2000 hr 320 FO never had to deal with his mistake , the 2000 hr TP Captain did.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 06:54
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Really, guys. Get over yourselves. Flying a T7 through a bit of weather to another ILS is not rocket science. I know because I came from a 73 to do it in EK and am now, thankfully, back in civilisation enjoying a more humane work schedule. Much as it offends your over-inflated wide-body egos, I'm sure a competent TP guy will cope with the challenge despite the sub-optimal training, just like the lo-co guys did before them. Not good for the long-haul sky god myth, I know.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 08:10
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Stop worrying about the TP guys. Lowered requirements doesn't mean that they will hire the first one who will show up. In my opinion it's even a smart strategy from EK because now they have a bunch of new profile and won't miss some good guys who have high potential but doesn't have the famous 2k hours jet time.
Remember, younger you are higher is your willingness to learn.
Off course they have to adapt the assessment and training policy with regard to this new parameter....however I don't have any doubt about that.
Is that enough to solve all the problem quoted here about EK working conditions? I'm not sure but anyway I hope for joining guys that it is just the first step. Anyway they have to find a sustainable solution with this massive resignation...and they will do because they don't have any choice.
All the bets guys!
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