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Lowered requirements Emirates

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Lowered requirements Emirates

Old 9th Aug 2015, 06:12
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 645
Luke, I'm not missing the point, you and I are talking about the same thing, it's why I prefaced my initial comments by speaking about the quality of candidate.
What you are missing is that from the perspective of the EK training machine, previous experience, qualifications, hours etc etc etc matter not, you are treated as an unknowing Luddite. Hence the need for relevant training, it doesn't matter to EK if these guys can write an ops manual, train CRM or live an breathe aviation, they will be low seniority F/O's who when they want their opinion it will be given to them, that's the EK checking department which BTW is slowly reversing all the positive gains it has made in recent years.
As to my comments relating to who I would prefer sat next to me when the proverbial hits the fan? someone who is comfortable in the environment, that comfort level comes from being trained correctly, based on what I see that won't happen.
For context Luke, my previous employer took many many 2-3-4-5-6000 HR TP guys and plonked them in the right seat of a 757 or 320, I trained a lot of them and it was recognised by those far more enlightened than me that the conversion and line training needed to be tailored a bit more, that won't happen at EK with its cookie cutter approach, and so I will be left to pick up the slack, probably at 3am during the monsoon somewhere.
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 06:41
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Permanent JET LAGGG
Posts: 205
If I may...

I think we've beaten the "experience" horse to death. An individual is just that, an individual. At my previous outfit we had ab-initio guys flying a jet with 250hrs. Some were good(enough to get by) and some were phenomenal operators. There is a point where we blossom as aviators and become who we will be. At times we are humbled and we are ALWAYS learning from our mistakes and the mistakes of our colleagues.

I think the real point is this: we've all worked really hard to get to the point in our career where we are wide body Captains or FO's. It's taken myself and my colleagues years of instructing, crappy low cost airline flying, long hours, low pay, and now we've made it to the big leagues. Except there is one problem, our T and C keep dropping and keep dropping. We are now overworked and highly underpaid and not respected from our company. Bringing in 1500hr guys (regardless of experience) will be thrilled to fly big jets on long haul routes, stay in lavish hotels, and work with a planeful of young cabin crew... ...it's a big carrot to dangle. They haven't worked as hard or as long as we have to get to this position and it bothers many people. They won't "know" how they deserve to be treated because they haven't dealt with the amount of sh1t we had to deal with to get this far. And the only reason we dealt with all that sh1t at previous companies was that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. One day we will make it to an airline that values us, pays us, and treats us well!

It's our job as current crew to educate them on how they deserve to be treated and that they need not be pushed around by management. Our current conditions are unacceptable and the rest of the "sky gods" would agree. If you don't think every captain you flew with when you were low time taught you something(positive or negative) then think again. Even as a Captain I'm still learning, and that won't stop until I quit breathing.

If 1500 TP guys stepped onto property and demanded to only fly 75-80hrs/month, expected more pay and more days off I think we would all be singing a different tune. Just my thoughts

Safe flying to all.

CC
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 07:18
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Inmate of District 11
Posts: 442
The TP guys will be welcome to share the workload in EK, simple.

As to their professionalism as a pilot, no different than any EK pilot.

As to the experience of an EK pilot. All EK pilots prior to joining had Jet time, Wide body time (perhaps), Global route experience (likely), a proven ability to adapat for the EK mould to fly jets on global/international routes.

As to the experience of the TP pilot. These guys are often going to be younger in their career than the previous EK applicant and might be more adaptable than the pilots who came to EK with jet time who were possibly older. The TP guys will have a beyond vertical learning curve as they will have to learn the "Jet" way of flying, the "Global" route structures, the new Med Haul and Long Haul work regime and associated fatigue issues. Also to be learnt will be the EK way of doing things and for those going to any Airbus, sidestick handling. A tall ask YES, impossible, NO. Give these guys a break and let us see how this plays out.

The only issue for the EK guys in particular will be the fact that every flight with a new TP guy is going to be a training flight for the TPs first year or more in EK and this will mean that the EK Captain is going to have to be even more aware than normal or the 'tea and biscuits" trip is inevitable + letters + cash loss (no bonus etc or upgrade if multicrew).

Time will tell, only the results will settle this one out so lets wait and see.

J
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 08:37
  #224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield
Posts: 282
They have 10,000ish hours, most of it command time, they're still in their 30s or early 40s.
If I was a recruiter I would ask "why now for jets?"
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 08:58
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: England
Posts: 39
Why now?

And if I was answering that question, I would say, you wanted big shiny jet time before now and anyway once you get that far up any tree it gets harder to leave.

I used to be a training Captain back in the day on a Dash ( crash ) 8... Due to a slack period in the industry I was there a few years.. So when the opportunity arose and I found myself in front of someone asking that question, I was a bit perplexed. I was prepared to take a 50% pay cut to go forward in my career and fly jets ( wow ) and this dick was implying that I must be useless as I had so much experience! Yeah, that why I was a TRE because I was useless....

Anyway, that was then and now it's a memory... TP guys and gals are easy to train, I've done a lot of jet conversions with them. They are speed aware, can land in a cross wind, ( it really isn't that different, took me two goes to nail ) they are CRM experts as they have flown with some strange types who don't want to leave, and are two crew ready.

If anyone can get through the sim etc, then it don't matter where they come from. What we need is boys and girls that have been trained well and recurented well...end of.
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 09:11
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield
Posts: 282
Basic I actually don't care too much where a guy comes from.TP or gliders. ...but I wouldn't suggest answering the question your way...Please come on over the weather's fine....
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 09:18
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: England
Posts: 39
I answered it that way in 1997 ( tempered to make it sound better ) I'm here and will be happy to train em.....
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 10:11
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,042
The only issue for the EK guys in particular will be the fact that every flight with a new TP guy is going to be a training flight for the TPs first year or more in EK and this will mean that the EK Captain is going to have to be even more aware than normal or the 'tea and biscuits" trip is inevitable + letters + cash loss (no bonus etc or upgrade if multicrew).
Jack, you nailed it!

That is exactly what i fear. With 95 factored hours, 2 ground schools, not more than twice two days off in row, covering 18h time difference twice a month i am simply afraid of a very much bigger chance of running into some kind of trouble that would affect my carrer and my familiy's destiny.

If i thought i was that proverbial sky god as some clowns imply, i would probably think 'bring 'em on, they'll benefit of my superiour skills, blah, blah', but i do not consider myself as that. I am an average skipper who would like to finish his carreer in peace, with what has worked up to now.

I say it again: Nothing against other pilots, they are all equal (some are more equal, but that's another story ...). Most on this page agree that different backgrounds need different screening and training and there lies the Gordic knot. I no longer believe that this happens, although don managed to soothe my concern a bit. Let's hope.

But i really do share Jack's comment above

Last edited by glofish; 9th Aug 2015 at 10:39.
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 10:28
  #229 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
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I think Jack and glofish are right. I think every EK captain will become a 'training' captain wether they like it or not. And if something goes wrong.......

I can only hope Don is correct.
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 12:12
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 70
It's actually the TP guys I would have sympathy with in all of this. After the elation of being selected to fly a big shiny jet in a big shiny city, they will soon be introduced to the Emirates way of training and realise that they are given precisely zero credit for the attributes on which, presumably, they were selected. Then, having passed the training, they will have the pleasure of sitting next to an individual who has been doing EK long-haul just a bit too long and is paranoid about some upstart ruining his precious track record and jeopardising the income on which he his family have become a bit too dependent.

Welcome to the EK fear culture. It does not generally make for a fun day out (although there are of course exceptions).
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 12:36
  #231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Correr es mi destino por no llevar papel
Posts: 1,389
Originally Posted by SOPS
I mean flying a high performance, swept wing, wide body jet, is very different to flying a Dash 8.
Dunno about widebodies but personally I found flying both 320 and 738 somewhat different to Q400. Quite easier, that is.
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 13:16
  #232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,042
It's actually the TP guys I would have sympathy with in all of this.
No objection here

After the elation of being selected to fly a big shiny jet in a big shiny city, they will soon be introduced to the Emirates way of training and realise that they are given precisely zero credit for the attributes on which, presumably, they were selected.
How right you are, has always been like that

Then, having passed the training, they will have the pleasure of sitting next to an individual who has been doing EK long-haul just a bit too long
Again, you are absolutely right. We all would like to reduce hours .....

and is paranoid about some upstart ruining his precious track record
Take your sarcasm out and replace 'paranoid' with 'fearful' and you are right again

and jeopardising the income on which he his family have become a bit too dependent.
Not even funny. What family is not dependent on income? Or should each one benefit of a nice heritage? Good on yours if they do not depend 'too much' on your income. I've read better sarcasm.

Welcome to the EK fear culture. It does not generally make for a fun day out (although there are of course exceptions).
Right again

What was your point?
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 14:35
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Aus
Posts: 24
With the revised entry requirements at Emirates I am now eligible to apply (and yes mainly TP guy). Iíve done a lot of reading on this forum and will heed the advice of the experienced guys here and avoid the place like the plague. Not that it took much convincing after a cadetship offer from CX several years ago now. Will it help your cause for better T & Cís? Well I and many others didnít help Cx for refusing, so unlikely to change whatís coming your way, at least for the newbys. IMHO Rubbish T & Cís of airline pilots are here to stay and it is a race to the bottom in no uncertain terms. For every one of me that wonít accept whatís happening and wants no part in it there are 100 guys/gals that will for whatever reason. Airline management and the bean counters will continue to capitalise on this fact and exploit it for all itís worth. At the end of the day itís a business. You're just a number unfortunately.

Is a TP guy suitably qualified? Some of you guys here need to get a grip. As someone said earlier, itís not rocket science. Right training (not checking), attitude, work ethic, etc, etc,.... In any case best of luck to all of you in what invariably sounds like a sinking ship.
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Old 9th Aug 2015, 16:58
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,088
If prior turboprop time didn't count about half of the US pilot corps, especially the Captains, would probably not be working at their airline.

If having time in the airplane is an absolute must no one would be qualified. How do you get job #1 if no one has flown that type airplane before?

It might be the diffference between the US and overseas POV. The major companies in the US don't care if you have time in type. They look for overall experience and background and how they rate vs their peers. Variety of experience and background (TRE/TRI/CKA/mgt vs having one or two qualifications in the last decade) counts more than time in type.

I checked my logbook - I observed landings by 57 different pilots last year. All experienced, some with years at the company and years in the airplane, and some with no time at the company or in the aircraft. Up to including having not flown for 7 years before a six week type rating course (2 wks GS, 2 wks sims -10 total, then 25 hrs IOE/LOE. Two of the three weakest had over 6000 hrs in type.

To me, in general, experience does not predict ability.

Last edited by misd-agin; 9th Aug 2015 at 20:04.
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Old 10th Aug 2015, 06:27
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Pit
Posts: 50
I would gladly take an experienced TP guy in the right seat with me over any, I bought my job as a babysitter in a 320/737 for 250 hours, jet guy. Some of you really do need to get off your high horse. We are all just over glorified bus drivers.
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Old 10th Aug 2015, 09:47
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Qatar
Posts: 89
I for one am not a glorified bus driver. I am a professional who works hard to maintain a high level of professionalism. I try ro fly safely and efficiently and lead by example. I don't read papers or magazines in flight, I am looking at diversion airfields, pulling up plates, calculating landing performance and reading part C briefs. There are many other things we do as professionals to maintain our standards be it at home, in the briefing or on the flight; I say we because I am not unique, there are thousands like me.


Never put yourself or fellow aviators down, we have enough trouble trying to convince bean counters and management of our worth.


Back on thread...


The fact of the matter is TP or Jet it, as has been said before, depends on the individual. There are guys with from all walks of life with varying experience who are very capable and those that are not.
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Old 10th Aug 2015, 10:19
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Blandings
Posts: 685
"calculating landing performance"? Really? I can save you a little effort : it's about 1800 meters for max manual braking.

Now you have time to read the paper.
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Old 10th Aug 2015, 10:36
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Qatar
Posts: 89
I know....I know


but I'm guessing you got my point.


I wouldn't call a Dr a glorified nurse!
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Old 10th Aug 2015, 12:17
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 2,876
Goat Herder?
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Old 10th Aug 2015, 13:23
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,088
330goat - "I don't read papers or magazines in flight, I am looking at diversion airfields, pulling up plates, calculating landing performance and reading part C briefs."



Wouldn't the real professional not read at all by your standard? And wouldn't he read job related stuff prior to the flight?

Since the diversion airports stay fairly constant over an hour or two, and reviewing a handful of plates doesn't take that long, and landing performance doesn't change that much or take that long to look at, how much time do you spend reading the C briefs?

Personally I like the newspapers with pictures.

Last edited by misd-agin; 10th Aug 2015 at 13:25. Reason: Added quotations
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