US3 v ME3 - 'The Economist' weighs in
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
US3 v ME3 - 'The Economist' weighs in
US3 v ME3 - 'The Economist' weighs in.
Airlines: Flights of hypocrisy | The Economist
Also a University Professor cited in US3 report takes offense to being misrepresented.
COMMENTARY: US white paper on Gulf carriers distorts my academic report | Open Skies content from ATWOnline
f.
Airlines: Flights of hypocrisy | The Economist
Also a University Professor cited in US3 report takes offense to being misrepresented.
COMMENTARY: US white paper on Gulf carriers distorts my academic report | Open Skies content from ATWOnline
f.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: in the bunk
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: states
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Choice is a wonderful thing. Like the choice I get at an evil US3 on whether to fly 95 hours/month. There's also the choice to count time in the bunk as paid duty time. That's not so hard of a choice. I also have the choice to bid a predictable schedule so my body is ravaged by jet lag. I guess after shining up those suites, the ME3 kind of run thin on choice to spread around...
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Attic
Age: 59
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actual it is Fat. The Middle East loves to have it both ways. Open skies but not an open labor market.
The airlines in the Middle East and especially Emirates loves to dictate terms to suppliers, regulators and employees but will never accept anyone dictating to them.
The WSJ article and this Open Skies debate must be rocking their world. How dare anyone question the High and Mighty. Things are changing though. One can not treat employees the way they do in this tight labor market and expect a smooth operation or to have anyone happy.
How many 380s are parked right now? 2 will always be packed for the upper deck door cracks but how many Beasts are at OMDW?
Well back to message, the inquiry will investigate whether there are subsides or not in the Middle East. For sure at Qatar and probably the unmentionable. Probably not at EK. Just my 2 cents.
The airlines in the Middle East and especially Emirates loves to dictate terms to suppliers, regulators and employees but will never accept anyone dictating to them.
The WSJ article and this Open Skies debate must be rocking their world. How dare anyone question the High and Mighty. Things are changing though. One can not treat employees the way they do in this tight labor market and expect a smooth operation or to have anyone happy.
How many 380s are parked right now? 2 will always be packed for the upper deck door cracks but how many Beasts are at OMDW?
Well back to message, the inquiry will investigate whether there are subsides or not in the Middle East. For sure at Qatar and probably the unmentionable. Probably not at EK. Just my 2 cents.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shorty
Your handle would indicate you already know this...
Roughly half the movements of the US3 on a daily basis are flown by their regional contractors - whose atrocious and subpar wages of Cabin Crew and pilots SUBSIDIZE the Majors.
FO's on food stamps for many years if my memory serves me correctly...nothing like a little whipsawing of carriers every contract renewal...Comair put up a good fight though right?
You can beatch about about EK all you like (goodness knows we do) but we have never furloughed a pilot or downgraded an FO in 30 years due market conditions.
Many a furloughed major US airline pilot came here when they were kicked out onto the street by the mighty three (6?) and were luckily able to SUBSIZE the food on their table & their mortgages when their employer would not.
A little clarity please for those shorty on memory.
f.
Your handle would indicate you already know this...
Roughly half the movements of the US3 on a daily basis are flown by their regional contractors - whose atrocious and subpar wages of Cabin Crew and pilots SUBSIDIZE the Majors.
FO's on food stamps for many years if my memory serves me correctly...nothing like a little whipsawing of carriers every contract renewal...Comair put up a good fight though right?
You can beatch about about EK all you like (goodness knows we do) but we have never furloughed a pilot or downgraded an FO in 30 years due market conditions.
Many a furloughed major US airline pilot came here when they were kicked out onto the street by the mighty three (6?) and were luckily able to SUBSIZE the food on their table & their mortgages when their employer would not.
A little clarity please for those shorty on memory.
f.
The Economist article makes it pretty clear: The ME3 enjoys a union and industrial dispute free environment, which helps lower costs. The US3 enjoys Chapter 11, which lowers costs and sheds pension obligations.
The ME3 may, or may not, have benefitted from 42BN in aid; the US airline industry may, or may not, have benefitted from 155BN in aid.
Call it evens, and let's stay focused on the real thing: US3 are unable to compete with ME3, due to its incredible short-sightedness driven by Wall Street demands for ever improving quarterlies and an unhealthy focus on 'shareholder value', and have asked their government to intervene on their behalf.
As the article puts it, the US3 position is neither beneficial to the public nor the taxpayers. The only thing that would be beneficial to 'us', is a totally free market where anyone can fly between any two points anywhere in the world. That will revitalise the industry, create thousands and jobs and help more people to prosper. It might also mean a handful of US3 executives would lose out on huge bonuses, and that's where the hatchet is buried, so to speak. Since the US seems hell-bent on inverse income distribution, making the 1% richer and the middel class poorer, I can see why the US3 thinks they may be onto a winner.
The ME3 may, or may not, have benefitted from 42BN in aid; the US airline industry may, or may not, have benefitted from 155BN in aid.
Call it evens, and let's stay focused on the real thing: US3 are unable to compete with ME3, due to its incredible short-sightedness driven by Wall Street demands for ever improving quarterlies and an unhealthy focus on 'shareholder value', and have asked their government to intervene on their behalf.
As the article puts it, the US3 position is neither beneficial to the public nor the taxpayers. The only thing that would be beneficial to 'us', is a totally free market where anyone can fly between any two points anywhere in the world. That will revitalise the industry, create thousands and jobs and help more people to prosper. It might also mean a handful of US3 executives would lose out on huge bonuses, and that's where the hatchet is buried, so to speak. Since the US seems hell-bent on inverse income distribution, making the 1% richer and the middel class poorer, I can see why the US3 thinks they may be onto a winner.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: universe
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SMT, agreed its about the lack of ability to compete by the US majors. As TC said recently and I agree....
Same can be said about the so called big 3. It's far from a pleasant experience and a long way from ever being so. United are perhaps the biggest offenders in this regard, appaling pax handling and CC that are out of the Jurassic period.
Have you been on a US domestic flight? It’s like travelling with a low-cost bus company. The terminals are full of frightened people sitting on the floors because they’ve no facilities, being shouted at by airline agents
Last edited by vfenext; 13th May 2015 at 12:48. Reason: spell
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: bahamas
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason the big 3 have such bad service is because they have workers rights. In the mid east we have none. They change our contract as they feel fit to do so. Remember that .
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SKG
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More than 80 percent of current EK drivers from the U.S. were RJ pilots that were not laid off. Some downgraded indeed, best to say wil be.... Shiny big jet syndrome, let the truth be known...
I would say this . They did what's best for them,however, others that stayed with their regionals they did what they thought was best for them too.
3000 new pilots get hired by American/delta/United annually and both groups can decide who made the best decision to attract the recruiters.
PIC or WB hours? So far I See PIC hrs prevailing for now, however things change, also think of this : for every year you delay your entrance to the big 3 you lose 300k yearly earning at the other end towards the end of your flying journey. But seen the rest of the world while flying a wide body for EK it counts for something too... Whatever is best for each individual
I would say this . They did what's best for them,however, others that stayed with their regionals they did what they thought was best for them too.
3000 new pilots get hired by American/delta/United annually and both groups can decide who made the best decision to attract the recruiters.
PIC or WB hours? So far I See PIC hrs prevailing for now, however things change, also think of this : for every year you delay your entrance to the big 3 you lose 300k yearly earning at the other end towards the end of your flying journey. But seen the rest of the world while flying a wide body for EK it counts for something too... Whatever is best for each individual
Last edited by paokara; 13th May 2015 at 14:51.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In Fresh Air
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pao,
Sorry but there are approximately 200 U.S. pilots at EK that have recall rights from their legacy carriers according to a former VPFOs. They may have been RJ drivers and left but all will be working their way back when the time is right for them. Let's see, right sear RJ, or right seat wide body for a few years and at least double the pay.
Sorry but there are approximately 200 U.S. pilots at EK that have recall rights from their legacy carriers according to a former VPFOs. They may have been RJ drivers and left but all will be working their way back when the time is right for them. Let's see, right sear RJ, or right seat wide body for a few years and at least double the pay.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SKG
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
200 out of the 300 really? I guess then I know 30 percent of the RJ drivers there from one regional alone.... I thought guys from ASA Comair pinnacle mesaba express jet psa and others went there too.....
For the record per ALPA
62 percent getting hired are RJ drivers 29 percent military and 9 percent others
That's for Delta and United. Don't have the numbers for American since they are not Alpa
That's around 108 or so RJ pilots getting hired every month on delta and United.
For the record per ALPA
62 percent getting hired are RJ drivers 29 percent military and 9 percent others
That's for Delta and United. Don't have the numbers for American since they are not Alpa
That's around 108 or so RJ pilots getting hired every month on delta and United.
Last edited by paokara; 13th May 2015 at 17:56.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Globe Trotter
Age: 60
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thatwasclose listen to yourself. Workers rights justifies the atrocious service on the U.S. carriers. So the public, who pay our salaries, must just accept that they must put up with it so the crew can feel safe and secure while they get away with service that would get them fired in the real world. I think not!
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Neverland
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a guess.
Pao,
I would guess that applicants at the Big 3 are 85% RJ, 10% military and 5% other. Meaning your odds of getting hired are better if you are Other or Military. I left the US right seat 320 for right seat widebody in ME. Not much different than moving up at a major. At the time, many moons ago it was a good job in the ME. Not any more. Which is why people are leaving droves. I can now work in the US get 50% more days off and almost never see the back of the clock. If I had kids it would be a no brainer to move back home. Both the US and ME carriers have certain cost advantages,over the other. I will say however 1 ramper in the US probably cost the same as a dozen cleaners at EK. Also, EK doesn't pay employee taxes like the US. Labor as whole is just a lot cheaper in the ME. The biggest reason for the EK success story though is aircraft utilization, and simple fleets. Their planes are in the air 40% more than any other European or US airline. Thats why they do so well. Now the Big 3 should go to BAH ask to build a big island airport off the coast and compete directly with the ME3. BAH airspace is huge and the WX is always nice.
All IMHO
I would guess that applicants at the Big 3 are 85% RJ, 10% military and 5% other. Meaning your odds of getting hired are better if you are Other or Military. I left the US right seat 320 for right seat widebody in ME. Not much different than moving up at a major. At the time, many moons ago it was a good job in the ME. Not any more. Which is why people are leaving droves. I can now work in the US get 50% more days off and almost never see the back of the clock. If I had kids it would be a no brainer to move back home. Both the US and ME carriers have certain cost advantages,over the other. I will say however 1 ramper in the US probably cost the same as a dozen cleaners at EK. Also, EK doesn't pay employee taxes like the US. Labor as whole is just a lot cheaper in the ME. The biggest reason for the EK success story though is aircraft utilization, and simple fleets. Their planes are in the air 40% more than any other European or US airline. Thats why they do so well. Now the Big 3 should go to BAH ask to build a big island airport off the coast and compete directly with the ME3. BAH airspace is huge and the WX is always nice.
All IMHO
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: states
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shorty
Your handle would indicate you already know this...
Roughly half the movements of the US3 on a daily basis are flown by their regional contractors - whose atrocious and subpar wages of Cabin Crew and pilots SUBSIDIZE the Majors.
FO's on food stamps for many years if my memory serves me correctly...nothing like a little whipsawing of carriers every contract renewal...Comair put up a good fight though right?
You can beatch about about EK all you like (goodness knows we do) but we have never furloughed a pilot or downgraded an FO in 30 years due market conditions.
Many a furloughed major US airline pilot came here when they were kicked out onto the street by the mighty three (6?) and were luckily able to SUBSIZE the food on their table & their mortgages when their employer would not.
A little clarity please for those shorty on memory.
f.
Your handle would indicate you already know this...
Roughly half the movements of the US3 on a daily basis are flown by their regional contractors - whose atrocious and subpar wages of Cabin Crew and pilots SUBSIDIZE the Majors.
FO's on food stamps for many years if my memory serves me correctly...nothing like a little whipsawing of carriers every contract renewal...Comair put up a good fight though right?
You can beatch about about EK all you like (goodness knows we do) but we have never furloughed a pilot or downgraded an FO in 30 years due market conditions.
Many a furloughed major US airline pilot came here when they were kicked out onto the street by the mighty three (6?) and were luckily able to SUBSIZE the food on their table & their mortgages when their employer would not.
A little clarity please for those shorty on memory.
f.