To EK pilots - Legality of EK 6221 to DFW on Apr.XX
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To EK pilots - Legality of EK 6221 to DFW on Apr.XX
Pilots!
Just trying to get a more clear picture of this whole flight time limitations bull****, I have a incident to present you:
On Apr XX, DXB-DFW EK 6221 took off with 1:15 minutes delay. After 5 hours, the flight was diverted to DME for medical emergency. Spent 3 hours on ground in DME before taking off to DFW. Still a 10:30 hrs flight ahead at this point and crew had been on duty for almost 9:30 by then. No breaks had been taken since there was little information on the diversion and wether the flight would go back to DXB or continue on or whatever...
The flight went on to DFW and crew ended up spending 23 hours inside the aircraft. Total flying time was around 19:30 hrs. After effort from amazing seniors and purser, cabin crew was given 3 hr breaks.
You will be able to check all this on icrew, of course. But, as you well know, just remember the times that appear there are take-off/landing hours, excluding duty reporting times or aircraft taxing times...
Opinions on this bull****? To me it doesn't matter what procedures or book you follow, this is not how staff should be treated... Crew were told by flight deck they were still legal for 45 minutes. Just too much crap to believe in.
No recognition or e-mails from management after this... of course.
Opinions\insights?
Thanks a lot and fly safe!
Just trying to get a more clear picture of this whole flight time limitations bull****, I have a incident to present you:
On Apr XX, DXB-DFW EK 6221 took off with 1:15 minutes delay. After 5 hours, the flight was diverted to DME for medical emergency. Spent 3 hours on ground in DME before taking off to DFW. Still a 10:30 hrs flight ahead at this point and crew had been on duty for almost 9:30 by then. No breaks had been taken since there was little information on the diversion and wether the flight would go back to DXB or continue on or whatever...
The flight went on to DFW and crew ended up spending 23 hours inside the aircraft. Total flying time was around 19:30 hrs. After effort from amazing seniors and purser, cabin crew was given 3 hr breaks.
You will be able to check all this on icrew, of course. But, as you well know, just remember the times that appear there are take-off/landing hours, excluding duty reporting times or aircraft taxing times...
Opinions on this bull****? To me it doesn't matter what procedures or book you follow, this is not how staff should be treated... Crew were told by flight deck they were still legal for 45 minutes. Just too much crap to believe in.
No recognition or e-mails from management after this... of course.
Opinions\insights?
Thanks a lot and fly safe!
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 28th Apr 2015 at 05:26. Reason: Date redacted.
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HOS,
What does the FTL say - or are you too lazy to look it up.
You know when you dutied in and when you dutied out... Quote the section and then come back and make your case FFS.
The Flight Crew told you that you were legal within 45 mins. They didnt make the rules nor did they like being on duty that long either ...BUT the skipper made the call based on his experience.
Get a life...
f.
What does the FTL say - or are you too lazy to look it up.
You know when you dutied in and when you dutied out... Quote the section and then come back and make your case FFS.
The Flight Crew told you that you were legal within 45 mins. They didnt make the rules nor did they like being on duty that long either ...BUT the skipper made the call based on his experience.
Get a life...
f.
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Fliion - Maybe you can tell us what the FLT rules say without the unnecessary condescending tone of your previous post. The question was valid since, the way I see it, their circumstances did not fit the ULR FTL rules anymore following the diversion, i.e 2 sectors. That's the central point about the question I think.
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Filiion, if people would just grow some balls about whats right or wrong instead of playing superior to others or complying with shady stuff, i truly believe EK would be in much better shape, staff wise.
On this note, you know very well how gray the FTL rules are. Not black and white as it should. Not for EK. And that at the end of the day, the captain makes the call (always with a 'little insight' from EK on what the decision consequences will bring...).
Buuut, given your tone, maybe you do have those FTL a lot clearer than us. So please fill us in and answer the purpose of this thread.
On this note, you know very well how gray the FTL rules are. Not black and white as it should. Not for EK. And that at the end of the day, the captain makes the call (always with a 'little insight' from EK on what the decision consequences will bring...).
Buuut, given your tone, maybe you do have those FTL a lot clearer than us. So please fill us in and answer the purpose of this thread.
2 sectors is covered in the ULR regs under disruptions.
Additionally, ch 7 of the Ftls (under sub para f of the ULR continigencies), gives a get out of jail free card by saying that all the limitations in the aforementioned section may be waived.
Additionally, ch 7 of the Ftls (under sub para f of the ULR continigencies), gives a get out of jail free card by saying that all the limitations in the aforementioned section may be waived.
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I guess hos was asking about the "23 hours in the plane" stuff. A legitimate question, if the 22 hours were breached.
To me the 22 hours barrier is a 3 feet concrete wall.
If the skipper went beyond, i very much would question his "experience" (according fliion).
Such duty times are blatantly unsafe and in view of the continuous shafting by the company simply counterproductive regarding our plight for better working conditions.
My 2cts
To me the 22 hours barrier is a 3 feet concrete wall.
If the skipper went beyond, i very much would question his "experience" (according fliion).
Such duty times are blatantly unsafe and in view of the continuous shafting by the company simply counterproductive regarding our plight for better working conditions.
My 2cts
HOS,
What does the FTL say - or are you too lazy to look it up.
You know when you dutied in and when you dutied out... Quote the section and then come back and make your case FFS.
The Flight Crew told you that you were legal within 45 mins. They didnt make the rules nor did they like being on duty that long either ...BUT the skipper made the call based on his experience.
Get a life...
f.
What does the FTL say - or are you too lazy to look it up.
You know when you dutied in and when you dutied out... Quote the section and then come back and make your case FFS.
The Flight Crew told you that you were legal within 45 mins. They didnt make the rules nor did they like being on duty that long either ...BUT the skipper made the call based on his experience.
Get a life...
f.
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HeartofSpades, if you or anybody else operates a flight that you think is unsafe, and I make no apology for shouting, FILE AN ASR. I had a similar but less extreme case a couple of months back when no fewer than 7 cabin crew came to the flight deck asking if what we were doing was still legal (it was) and complaining about how tired they were. I offered all of them an ASR form and help to fill it in. None of them would.
If you don't look after yourself don't expect anybody else to. Especially in the Middle East.
If you don't look after yourself don't expect anybody else to. Especially in the Middle East.
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I rarely post in here but I am compelled to on this occasion.
Fillion, you wrote the most unprofessional post I have ever read in this forum.
There is no reason why a person has to respond in this way, ever. I hope you don't conduct yourself in such a poor way, in or out of the flight deck.
Enroll in an anger management class or refrain from posting such abrasive content. You are a disgrace!
Fillion, you wrote the most unprofessional post I have ever read in this forum.
There is no reason why a person has to respond in this way, ever. I hope you don't conduct yourself in such a poor way, in or out of the flight deck.
Enroll in an anger management class or refrain from posting such abrasive content. You are a disgrace!
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Hi HOS,
Ignore Fliion, it's just not worth it.
The answer to your question is in the OM-A. It's in Chapter 7 Annex C.7 paragraph f.
The short answer is, yes, it was legal. There are a couple of provisions that needed to be met, and I suspect they were. You can argue whether it was the correct decision but there's no doubt it was legal.
Ignore Fliion, it's just not worth it.
The answer to your question is in the OM-A. It's in Chapter 7 Annex C.7 paragraph f.
The short answer is, yes, it was legal. There are a couple of provisions that needed to be met, and I suspect they were. You can argue whether it was the correct decision but there's no doubt it was legal.
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Glowfish - that's the thing 22 hrs is not a concrete wall. Read sub para f it's very clear.
That's why i wrote
To me the 22 hours barrier is a 3 feet concrete wall.
It's true that in para f it says that in "extraordinary circumstances" the FCP can waive any imaginable limit for ULRs (we are in the law bending ME after all ...), but it is clearly stated that the final decision rest solely with the commander.
Late departures and medical diversions are no longer extraordinary circumstances, with DXB airport and the number of pax stacked into whales. So show some balls ffs.
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A quick check of the facts :
Sked Departure 22:45z
Off Blocks 23:31z
On Blocks DFW 19:36z
Total duty time 21:51 Hrs. Legal.
Seems heartofspades is not entirely truthful.
Do you really think the 4 pilots in the flight deck would risk their licences with something like this?
Sked Departure 22:45z
Off Blocks 23:31z
On Blocks DFW 19:36z
Total duty time 21:51 Hrs. Legal.
Seems heartofspades is not entirely truthful.
Do you really think the 4 pilots in the flight deck would risk their licences with something like this?
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Don't know why everyone gives fliion a hard time, he makes a fair point. Hos might not have access to om-a being cabin staff, but the ftl's are available in their manual. If he doesn't understand them then he should go to his manager for explanation - typical cabin crew, only time they speak to us is if they want something.
At least they got paid for the actual flight time, unlike the pilots who only got the scheduled block time flight pay.
At least they got paid for the actual flight time, unlike the pilots who only got the scheduled block time flight pay.
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Really!!!????
How many pilots have a difficult time interpreting the FTL's or misread them!
Cabin crew, in general, don't bother because, for them, they really do not matter. They follow whatever the company or captain tells them. Right or wrong. Even if they were right and hold to it they will be punished in one manner or another so they no longer bother.
As an aside, it astounds me how many captains simply go into discretion without discussing with the cabin crew.
How many pilots have a difficult time interpreting the FTL's or misread them!
Cabin crew, in general, don't bother because, for them, they really do not matter. They follow whatever the company or captain tells them. Right or wrong. Even if they were right and hold to it they will be punished in one manner or another so they no longer bother.
As an aside, it astounds me how many captains simply go into discretion without discussing with the cabin crew.
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Why would you ever discuss going into discretion with the cabin crew??! It is captain's discretion, not anybody else's. Having said that I would always consult the f/o's but if u start involving cabin crew it's only going to end badly. Very badly.
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You should certainly consider the cabin crew. If they have been stuck on the aircraft with passengers they will be more tired than just hanging around the airport for example. However, on the 380 there are 26 of them and at best it is like herding cats. I can't see a discussion going well. There is a reason it is called "Captain's Discretion".
Maybe we should have a group hug and a vote?
Maybe we should have a group hug and a vote?
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Alone having to exceed 22 hours is an exceptional circumstance. If I had to exceed that limit it wouldn't be for the company.
I feel like I owe it to the passengers I'm carrying and am responsible for.
Without doing anything unsafe, if the other pilots and myself feel fit enough to go the extra mile, I wouldn't have a problem to accept the CP's waiver.
For some passengers it could be a matter of life or death, the last chance to see a dear one before he/she passes away, you name it.
On the same token, if I had the slightest doubt I was really pushing my or my crew's limits, and 22 hours is a really long time, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop where I am.
tz
I feel like I owe it to the passengers I'm carrying and am responsible for.
Without doing anything unsafe, if the other pilots and myself feel fit enough to go the extra mile, I wouldn't have a problem to accept the CP's waiver.
For some passengers it could be a matter of life or death, the last chance to see a dear one before he/she passes away, you name it.
On the same token, if I had the slightest doubt I was really pushing my or my crew's limits, and 22 hours is a really long time, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop where I am.
tz
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You damn well better ENSURE the CC are fit to exceed their duty into discretion!! It is Captains discretion - the implication being YOU (the captain) are responsible to ensure that the CC are fit to continue.
I am not saying discussing it with individuals, one by one but, as a group they can be told that duty needs to be exceeded and if they are not fit then they should step forward. If they want to offload themselves then they can do so.
Should anything ever happen while in discretion, if you have NOT ensured they are fit YOU will be held legally liable and quite rightly so!!!!
You want to bandy around "I'm the Captain" then you had better be ready to act like one.
I am not saying discussing it with individuals, one by one but, as a group they can be told that duty needs to be exceeded and if they are not fit then they should step forward. If they want to offload themselves then they can do so.
Should anything ever happen while in discretion, if you have NOT ensured they are fit YOU will be held legally liable and quite rightly so!!!!
You want to bandy around "I'm the Captain" then you had better be ready to act like one.