Time to move the 380 cockpit door?
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Quote "Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge."
Reinhardt - you must be great company on a layover! I imagine there are not too many occasions when you "have to socialise with them" as they probably leave you to your make your own fun on layovers
Reinhardt - you must be great company on a layover! I imagine there are not too many occasions when you "have to socialise with them" as they probably leave you to your make your own fun on layovers
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The newest FCI from EK is purely and simply sexist and discriminatory.
To require a "male" flight attendant as second crew member in the cockpit during absence of a pilot bares the question as to why it has to be of that sex.
Can only men operate the lock after being briefed?
Or is there a hidden reason not mentioned?
What if the remaining pilot is a female?
EK/GCAA please think before you write.
To require a "male" flight attendant as second crew member in the cockpit during absence of a pilot bares the question as to why it has to be of that sex.
Can only men operate the lock after being briefed?
Or is there a hidden reason not mentioned?
What if the remaining pilot is a female?
EK/GCAA please think before you write.
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Glofish, really, don't you understand.
Your average male cabin crew with the company will be able to play flight sim to an advanced level, have a Somalian PPL and very likely is planning to go commercial when he has saved enough money. So if anything does go wrong he will be able to leap into action and save the day.
As an added bonus he will be able to tell you how to improve the quality of the landing from the last sector, which he thought was a bit average, you know it makes sense
Your average male cabin crew with the company will be able to play flight sim to an advanced level, have a Somalian PPL and very likely is planning to go commercial when he has saved enough money. So if anything does go wrong he will be able to leap into action and save the day.
As an added bonus he will be able to tell you how to improve the quality of the landing from the last sector, which he thought was a bit average, you know it makes sense
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You guys are missing the plot. All you have to do is look at the last NAJM award ceremony. Cabin Crew takes over for the first officer and saves the flight. Not even sure why we are still employed as pilots.
And don't forget, on re-entry, the pilot WILL use the keypad. We also have to return as soon as possible. Guess I'll be reading the IPAD a bit longer in the lav......
And don't forget, on re-entry, the pilot WILL use the keypad. We also have to return as soon as possible. Guess I'll be reading the IPAD a bit longer in the lav......
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Cabin crew (smartphones with legs, tabloid readers, avid shoppers, "need to sleep" on layovers, or middle-eastern dodgy individuals) are much more a safety risk than pilots !
Where do they come from ? how have they been recruited and checked ?
If they lose their job, what investment will they lose ?
How does it look (passenger point of view) to have CC checking pilots ?
Will they have priority to operate the door switch, in case of disagreement with remaining pilot ?
Where do they come from ? how have they been recruited and checked ?
If they lose their job, what investment will they lose ?
How does it look (passenger point of view) to have CC checking pilots ?
Will they have priority to operate the door switch, in case of disagreement with remaining pilot ?
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skytrax
It is not that much about existing cc. It is more about the most stupid regulation just legalised. Because it's as well not only about a depressive whacko, there are others, many more!!
If you want to organise an attack with an aircraft, it takes time, it took almost 2 years to train the morons who flew during 9/11 and they had to deceive a lot of trainers.
Now however, the airline community gives such groups a much shorter version, with cc. 4 to 8 weeks recruitment and 6 weeks training, with almost no such thing as screening for character.
One ME airline now made it even easier, by stating that the cc has to be male, what a treat!
The trained sleeper cell will wait until the crew composition predestines their cc to be the pissmaster. He will go when called, beforehand giving a little sign to his fellow sleepers as pax, the one will deal with the pilot with the pants down (easy), the other goes up and knocks on the door. The remaining pilot will want to deny access, the trustworthy safety-cc will however tell him to f#ck off, opens the door for his buddy and bingo!
Now if you accuse me of giving them ideas, you underestimate them greatly.
It's the complete knee jerk and most stupid reaction of many airlines that is only here to achieve some publicity, but in effect they just decreased safety by a good margin.
It is not that much about existing cc. It is more about the most stupid regulation just legalised. Because it's as well not only about a depressive whacko, there are others, many more!!
If you want to organise an attack with an aircraft, it takes time, it took almost 2 years to train the morons who flew during 9/11 and they had to deceive a lot of trainers.
Now however, the airline community gives such groups a much shorter version, with cc. 4 to 8 weeks recruitment and 6 weeks training, with almost no such thing as screening for character.
One ME airline now made it even easier, by stating that the cc has to be male, what a treat!
The trained sleeper cell will wait until the crew composition predestines their cc to be the pissmaster. He will go when called, beforehand giving a little sign to his fellow sleepers as pax, the one will deal with the pilot with the pants down (easy), the other goes up and knocks on the door. The remaining pilot will want to deny access, the trustworthy safety-cc will however tell him to f#ck off, opens the door for his buddy and bingo!
Now if you accuse me of giving them ideas, you underestimate them greatly.
It's the complete knee jerk and most stupid reaction of many airlines that is only here to achieve some publicity, but in effect they just decreased safety by a good margin.
Last edited by glofish; 1st Apr 2015 at 12:53.
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Glofish
You are 100% spot on. Thanks you for the articulate and elaborate post.
As you say, now it will be much easier to introduce somebody in the cockpit and take control - a cabin crew male, 2 months in the company (where does he come from ? where was he before ? ) - yes, because of the majority of the crew being female, they will have to bring some of the juniors from the back to act as "cockpit marshalls"
Last month one of them was trying to argue in the cockpit with both of us pilots, in a confuse manner about Iran, Syria, his childhood under the bombs of the IAF and God knows what, he was difficult to follow, and of course none of us was trying to argue...
Last year in the galley a purser was giving hints about the war "many people in Europe" were ready to start - guess what he had in mind...
and those people are going to "monitor" Captains, some of them could even be their grandfather ?
An absolute disgrace, typical rushed decision for PR, unfortunately all over the ME region and Europe...
You are 100% spot on. Thanks you for the articulate and elaborate post.
As you say, now it will be much easier to introduce somebody in the cockpit and take control - a cabin crew male, 2 months in the company (where does he come from ? where was he before ? ) - yes, because of the majority of the crew being female, they will have to bring some of the juniors from the back to act as "cockpit marshalls"
Last month one of them was trying to argue in the cockpit with both of us pilots, in a confuse manner about Iran, Syria, his childhood under the bombs of the IAF and God knows what, he was difficult to follow, and of course none of us was trying to argue...
Last year in the galley a purser was giving hints about the war "many people in Europe" were ready to start - guess what he had in mind...
and those people are going to "monitor" Captains, some of them could even be their grandfather ?
An absolute disgrace, typical rushed decision for PR, unfortunately all over the ME region and Europe...
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mnsthepilot writes.
"What is your problem if a professional pilot prayed for 10 minutes during the flight, when it is time to pray in his religion " I mean it is only 10 minutes"
The 10 minute prayer time may not be a problem but turning the aircraft during the flight to face Mecca for prayers might be.
"What is your problem if a professional pilot prayed for 10 minutes during the flight, when it is time to pray in his religion " I mean it is only 10 minutes"
The 10 minute prayer time may not be a problem but turning the aircraft during the flight to face Mecca for prayers might be.
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EK It's all about image-not common sense
Two-person rule in cockpit fails to address mental health problem in airline industry
Date
March 28, 2015
There is no doubt something needs to be done to prevent this from happening in the future, but a rule that there must be two people in the cockpit at all times is not the answer.
There is no doubt something needs to be done to prevent this from happening in the future, but a rule that there must be two people in the cockpit at all times is not the answer. Photo: Tanya Ingrisciano
Once again in the face of tragedy, outrage and sadness have manifested themselves in irrational action.
The turn of events that led to the loss of 150 lives is undoubtedly tragic and dumbfounding. A reportedly mentally ill co-pilot taking the reins while the captain was out of the cockpit is truly terrifying. But calls for rule changes for the cockpit are emotive and knee-jerk.
Let's consider a few important facts. According to the Aviation Safety Network, since September 11, 2001, only two incidents of commercial flight suicide have been recorded. Considering that more than 2.5 billion people flew between 2010 and 2014, that is a lottery-winning low chance of encountering a similar tragedy. Moreover, the ability for a mentally ill person to destroy themselves and a multitude of innocent people is not reserved for the cockpit.
Calling for a two-person requirement in the cockpit is certainly not the answer to this tragedy. It appears to be the reaction of governing bodies who want to appear to be "doing something". Yes, there is something to be done here, but it isn't a knee-jerk rule change. It's about addressing mental health issues in an industry in which such issues are stigmatised.
For our long-haul flights, with large roomy cockpits that include a lavatory, it is already customary, and extremely manageable, to always have two pilots in the cockpit.
In fact, when on long flights with three or more pilots, it is a requirement to do so. This is an added safety measure, not to prevent someone from doing something awful, but to keep an extra set of eyes on the aircraft.
For domestic flying in aircraft such as the Boeing 737, the idea of requiring two people in the cockpit at all times is almost an impossibility. The cockpit is small - so small in fact that if a pilot wished to go to the lavatory, he or she would have to completely exit the cockpit before another crew member (presumably a flight attendant) could enter. Even then, the crew member would have no room.
The jumbling of crew members would create an enormous amount of hassle, and potentially be unsafe.
It seems that the people who suggest these ideas as solutions are not qualified to do so and ought to spend some time doing their research. Calling for this rule is like requiring that all buses have two drivers on board because one driver could drive off a cliff on purpose.
There is no doubt something needs to be done to prevent this from happening in the future, but a rule that there must be two people in the cockpit at all times is not the answer.
The solution here is obviously to address the elephant in the room - mental health. Our industry has in place an opportunity to deal with mental health issues, but culturally and otherwise, such issues are still stigmatised.
The avenues for dealing with mental health issues such as major depressive disorder are limited. Airlines are addressing fatigue but mental health still carries unjustified outcome anxiety. A pilot raising his or her hand about mental health may mistakenly fear they will never be allowed to fly again. The ability to fly is a livelihood; failing a medical is essentially becoming unemployable.
This tragedy is a wake-up call. We should learn from this. We need to learn to help mentally ill pilots to take time out, recover and fly again. We need to destigmatise mental health, and we need to remove the fear of acknowledging the issues we might face.
It is certain that we will all encounter mental health issues in our lives, if not directly then through someone close to us. It's about time we confront and manage mental health in the aviation industry.
Mark Gilmour has been an airline pilot for 10 years. He is based in Sydney.
Support is available for those who may be distressed by phoning beyondblue on 1300 22 4636; Lifeline 13 11 14; Mensline 1300 789 978; Kids Helpline 1800 551 800.
Date
March 28, 2015
There is no doubt something needs to be done to prevent this from happening in the future, but a rule that there must be two people in the cockpit at all times is not the answer.
There is no doubt something needs to be done to prevent this from happening in the future, but a rule that there must be two people in the cockpit at all times is not the answer. Photo: Tanya Ingrisciano
Once again in the face of tragedy, outrage and sadness have manifested themselves in irrational action.
The turn of events that led to the loss of 150 lives is undoubtedly tragic and dumbfounding. A reportedly mentally ill co-pilot taking the reins while the captain was out of the cockpit is truly terrifying. But calls for rule changes for the cockpit are emotive and knee-jerk.
Let's consider a few important facts. According to the Aviation Safety Network, since September 11, 2001, only two incidents of commercial flight suicide have been recorded. Considering that more than 2.5 billion people flew between 2010 and 2014, that is a lottery-winning low chance of encountering a similar tragedy. Moreover, the ability for a mentally ill person to destroy themselves and a multitude of innocent people is not reserved for the cockpit.
Calling for a two-person requirement in the cockpit is certainly not the answer to this tragedy. It appears to be the reaction of governing bodies who want to appear to be "doing something". Yes, there is something to be done here, but it isn't a knee-jerk rule change. It's about addressing mental health issues in an industry in which such issues are stigmatised.
For our long-haul flights, with large roomy cockpits that include a lavatory, it is already customary, and extremely manageable, to always have two pilots in the cockpit.
In fact, when on long flights with three or more pilots, it is a requirement to do so. This is an added safety measure, not to prevent someone from doing something awful, but to keep an extra set of eyes on the aircraft.
For domestic flying in aircraft such as the Boeing 737, the idea of requiring two people in the cockpit at all times is almost an impossibility. The cockpit is small - so small in fact that if a pilot wished to go to the lavatory, he or she would have to completely exit the cockpit before another crew member (presumably a flight attendant) could enter. Even then, the crew member would have no room.
The jumbling of crew members would create an enormous amount of hassle, and potentially be unsafe.
It seems that the people who suggest these ideas as solutions are not qualified to do so and ought to spend some time doing their research. Calling for this rule is like requiring that all buses have two drivers on board because one driver could drive off a cliff on purpose.
There is no doubt something needs to be done to prevent this from happening in the future, but a rule that there must be two people in the cockpit at all times is not the answer.
The solution here is obviously to address the elephant in the room - mental health. Our industry has in place an opportunity to deal with mental health issues, but culturally and otherwise, such issues are still stigmatised.
The avenues for dealing with mental health issues such as major depressive disorder are limited. Airlines are addressing fatigue but mental health still carries unjustified outcome anxiety. A pilot raising his or her hand about mental health may mistakenly fear they will never be allowed to fly again. The ability to fly is a livelihood; failing a medical is essentially becoming unemployable.
This tragedy is a wake-up call. We should learn from this. We need to learn to help mentally ill pilots to take time out, recover and fly again. We need to destigmatise mental health, and we need to remove the fear of acknowledging the issues we might face.
It is certain that we will all encounter mental health issues in our lives, if not directly then through someone close to us. It's about time we confront and manage mental health in the aviation industry.
Mark Gilmour has been an airline pilot for 10 years. He is based in Sydney.
Support is available for those who may be distressed by phoning beyondblue on 1300 22 4636; Lifeline 13 11 14; Mensline 1300 789 978; Kids Helpline 1800 551 800.
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This is absolute madness. For the first time ever I feel unsafe. Any aircraft with humans on the Flight Deck can be crashed, with or without captain/copilot/cabin crew present.
I had once a cabin crew (male) stopped by security somewhere in the East.He was carrying a replica Berretta 9mm. Few years back.Was he suffering from some mental disorder? Probably...Was he hired by the company..? Definitely.
Yes, he was fired, obviously.
I had once a cabin crew (male) stopped by security somewhere in the East.He was carrying a replica Berretta 9mm. Few years back.Was he suffering from some mental disorder? Probably...Was he hired by the company..? Definitely.
Yes, he was fired, obviously.
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Those pilots who are currently flying on anti depressants will fear being grounded in the future if you go to the docs stating you are depressed. This fact might leave a number of pilots who need medical help but who are not going to seek medical help because of the threat of being grounded! It's not a statement about the door but those who might need help and are now keeping it quiet inside the door.
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