EK pilots 3 man MLE etc
Pilots are not there to create solutions for poor rostering practices.
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Beat me too it Bananas. I believe the heading is something like "Extension of Flying Duty Period by In-flight Relief" or words to that effect, in which case on the ground don't count.
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Natops,
Are you operating at EK? a 2 man crew cannot legally do the flight, unless variation 1. Even in variation 1 there where large amount of flights that went into discretion . A variation flight that goes into discretion must be reported to the authorities. Hence we no longer do it as a variation flight. This is not an attempt to make us less tired, rather an attempt to prevent a layover.
Are you operating at EK? a 2 man crew cannot legally do the flight, unless variation 1. Even in variation 1 there where large amount of flights that went into discretion . A variation flight that goes into discretion must be reported to the authorities. Hence we no longer do it as a variation flight. This is not an attempt to make us less tired, rather an attempt to prevent a layover.
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An interesting discussion for an outsider beginning to dabble with FRMS readying for EASA FTL in Europe.
1. What's the max FDP for the MLE flights (there are two I believe) In the UK it's 10.15hrs
2. If under variation 1 what is the increase 1 hr?
3. What is the planned FDP
4. Do EK have napping policy for 2 crew?
5. If the flight augmented is there are guidance on in flight relief e.g. if one has to turn up rested for the FDP then an immediate nap may be of no use?
6. Any sleep trail / motion watches being undertaken or just bio mathematical modelling (if so any idea which one)
7. It would make sense for P1/2 to split the return sector to nap prior to landing rather than trying to augment the 3hrs?
8.It must be up there in terms of fatiguing flights, do you undertake any sleepiness scoring at top of drop etc as part of the FRMS e.g. KSS scale
If the questions are too probing please pm me, I have an honest interest in FRMS and any honest data/replies is appreciated
1. What's the max FDP for the MLE flights (there are two I believe) In the UK it's 10.15hrs
2. If under variation 1 what is the increase 1 hr?
3. What is the planned FDP
4. Do EK have napping policy for 2 crew?
5. If the flight augmented is there are guidance on in flight relief e.g. if one has to turn up rested for the FDP then an immediate nap may be of no use?
6. Any sleep trail / motion watches being undertaken or just bio mathematical modelling (if so any idea which one)
7. It would make sense for P1/2 to split the return sector to nap prior to landing rather than trying to augment the 3hrs?
8.It must be up there in terms of fatiguing flights, do you undertake any sleepiness scoring at top of drop etc as part of the FRMS e.g. KSS scale
If the questions are too probing please pm me, I have an honest interest in FRMS and any honest data/replies is appreciated
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Referring to a recent MAA turnaround (not planned as a variation flight) included the usual CONOTAM to indicate that it was a burnout flight. Given cruise time less than six hours etc, there is no extension of duty time beyond the "normal" two-crew duty times right? So if it's not a variation flight and can be done within two-crew duty limits then the augmenting pilot has exactly the same duty time as the other two poor blokes, so whether it's a burnout flight or not is irrelevant i.e. everyone will "burnout" at the same moment. (A rare and spectacular sight for sure!)
Then, I read in this weeks Flight Safety digest that the Flight Safety Department believes these flights are operating as "variation flights" and are safe for two crew. Huh?!?!
Then, I read in this weeks Flight Safety digest that the Flight Safety Department believes these flights are operating as "variation flights" and are safe for two crew. Huh?!?!
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Fleet Facts.
Ladies and Gents,
There is an article in Decembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how these flights are to be operated.
There is also an article in Septembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how to operate the three crew to Asia when the third guy is not needed for FTL.
Unfortunately the first article is bound to cause more questions than answers.
M
There is an article in Decembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how these flights are to be operated.
There is also an article in Septembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how to operate the three crew to Asia when the third guy is not needed for FTL.
Unfortunately the first article is bound to cause more questions than answers.
M
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natops,
Firstly i apologise if my reply was a bit curt. I re read it and it could have come across as such. So sorry for that.
Just because SP says something does not make it so. The law is the law. The ASR reports from the last batch had explanations on the flights, saying they under variation 1 flights. They are not. I asked. I got a reply. I encourage everyone to actually ask. Don't just go along with well, he said she said so thats the way it is. There are rules, and laws, and consequences for not obeying them if something goes wrong. Call the FDM and ask if this is a variation 1 flight before you go. If we don't stand up for ourselves, no one will. And we are not being jerks, we are just trying to follow the law.
Firstly i apologise if my reply was a bit curt. I re read it and it could have come across as such. So sorry for that.
Just because SP says something does not make it so. The law is the law. The ASR reports from the last batch had explanations on the flights, saying they under variation 1 flights. They are not. I asked. I got a reply. I encourage everyone to actually ask. Don't just go along with well, he said she said so thats the way it is. There are rules, and laws, and consequences for not obeying them if something goes wrong. Call the FDM and ask if this is a variation 1 flight before you go. If we don't stand up for ourselves, no one will. And we are not being jerks, we are just trying to follow the law.
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The MLE is planned for a 11:15 FDP. If this trip was Planned under variation 1 the max FDP would be 10:45 (10:15 MAX FDP plus 30 min VAR 1). So the way it is planned, it is not legally do-able. The company basically expects you to go into discretion at planning stage. What am I missing?
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Repost with a bit more info.
Ladies and Gents,
There is an article in Decembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how these (MLE/MAA/TRV) flights are to be operated. It's written by the Manager Regulatory Affairs.
1. It is not a variation
2. Operating crew must get three hours.
There is also an article in Septembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how to operate the three crew to Asia when the third guy is not needed for FTL.
Unfortunately the first article is bound to cause more questions than answers.
Eg. Are they planning you into discretion if due to, on the day flight times operating crew can't get three hours each?
M
There is an article in Decembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how these (MLE/MAA/TRV) flights are to be operated. It's written by the Manager Regulatory Affairs.
1. It is not a variation
2. Operating crew must get three hours.
There is also an article in Septembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how to operate the three crew to Asia when the third guy is not needed for FTL.
Unfortunately the first article is bound to cause more questions than answers.
Eg. Are they planning you into discretion if due to, on the day flight times operating crew can't get three hours each?
M
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No, normally not. The MLE, TRV and MAA block times allow flights within variation1. It's when delays set in that discretion is needed.
As i see it the company sends a third pilot to sort of mitigate our reluctance to "foresee" the normal delays and go more easily. They wanted us to go anyway and see down the road, after the quick turn around, if we continued home or stopped in MCT or KHI without discretion. Knowing about the mood on line, they added a third pilot to have us go into discretion a little more easily.
I personally think this is better than before, legal squabble set aside, because they would never allow a night stop and frankly, i would not very much appreciate a short one in these places. So i see this as a viable solution.
As i see it the company sends a third pilot to sort of mitigate our reluctance to "foresee" the normal delays and go more easily. They wanted us to go anyway and see down the road, after the quick turn around, if we continued home or stopped in MCT or KHI without discretion. Knowing about the mood on line, they added a third pilot to have us go into discretion a little more easily.
I personally think this is better than before, legal squabble set aside, because they would never allow a night stop and frankly, i would not very much appreciate a short one in these places. So i see this as a viable solution.
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Hi Glowy,
Not sure why the Manager Regulatory Affairs has put in writing that these flights are not variations then?
After all he is the guy that brought this in and is responsible for it.
The trip descriptions don't show them as variations either!
Have a read of the fleet facts article. Dec 2014
Seems safety (ASR's) have not been informed on how these flights are rostered.
I agree with you on how it should be operated I.e as variation with the extra guy as a help with rest but not to extend FDP.
Thoughts?
M
Not sure why the Manager Regulatory Affairs has put in writing that these flights are not variations then?
After all he is the guy that brought this in and is responsible for it.
The trip descriptions don't show them as variations either!
Have a read of the fleet facts article. Dec 2014
Seems safety (ASR's) have not been informed on how these flights are rostered.
I agree with you on how it should be operated I.e as variation with the extra guy as a help with rest but not to extend FDP.
Thoughts?
M
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Are you guys getting paid if you volunteer extend your duty pass 12 hrs?
We get 2.5 for 30 minutes extension and 5 hrs pay for 31 minutes or more extension.....
Example : a 3 day Europe trip if it's late 3 hrs or more will pay an additional 5 hrs...... From 16 hrs blocked to 21 pay
We get 2.5 for 30 minutes extension and 5 hrs pay for 31 minutes or more extension.....
Example : a 3 day Europe trip if it's late 3 hrs or more will pay an additional 5 hrs...... From 16 hrs blocked to 21 pay