EK Website has DEC 330
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EK Website has DEC 330
If they announce B777 DECs before going up the line for OM-A qualified FOs, I'm handing in my resignation. And two weeks notice will do just fine. There's 200+ qualified FOs right now with 36 months in the seat at EK on the Boeing. This is the year we've been waiting for.
They wanted me to give my previous employer min notice, I'll do the same for them too.
They wanted me to give my previous employer min notice, I'll do the same for them too.
Muchspeed is a very good example of EK new hires. The fact that EK was hiring DECs and FOs were being bypassed when he joined didn't matter as it did not concern him. Now that he may be shafted by the same policy he threatens to resign (yeah right).
I hate to say we told you so, but we did.
I hate to say we told you so, but we did.
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EK Website has DEC 330
Nope knew it then. Know it now. Situation different. I didn't join here for the upgrade. Wasn't chasing the airplane, have been doing this crazy career for 27 years now. Left a much, much, much higher paying job for this. I'm here for another reason totally unrelated to aviation. Now that has changed. So the later becomes an issue only on the basis of the principal that they lied.
Oh, when I was hired they had not hired DECs for 7 years. Said they didn't plan on it again. The last round of of DECs was during my first year here.
Also when I was hired there was a very very different tone on this forum even. If you can remember that. Most were talking about the lack of bonuses and pay. Most still cared and did their best to help the company achieve their goals thinking it would benefit them as well. "Laughing now".
Amazing how three plus years can change a groups attitude. I mean do you go the extra mile to save 100kgs of fuel on something that might put you in front of management with them telling you that "in their book" it was not the best thing to do and therefore you will now get a letter in your file. Not worth it. But three years ago, everyone was doing what they thought was their part to go the extra mile. To make that extra dollar.
Not anymore.
Oh, when I was hired they had not hired DECs for 7 years. Said they didn't plan on it again. The last round of of DECs was during my first year here.
Also when I was hired there was a very very different tone on this forum even. If you can remember that. Most were talking about the lack of bonuses and pay. Most still cared and did their best to help the company achieve their goals thinking it would benefit them as well. "Laughing now".
Amazing how three plus years can change a groups attitude. I mean do you go the extra mile to save 100kgs of fuel on something that might put you in front of management with them telling you that "in their book" it was not the best thing to do and therefore you will now get a letter in your file. Not worth it. But three years ago, everyone was doing what they thought was their part to go the extra mile. To make that extra dollar.
Not anymore.
Last edited by Machspeed; 24th Feb 2015 at 23:06.
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Machspeed.,,
Fact check. If the last round of DECs was in your first year of hire...then to say they hadn't hired DECS in the seven years prior is categorically incorrect.
f.
Fact check. If the last round of DECs was in your first year of hire...then to say they hadn't hired DECS in the seven years prior is categorically incorrect.
f.
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DECs were hired up until 2009, then again in 2012.
Not criticising the poster, but DECs have and always will be taken by EK. Not because they are better, not because they want to upset the FOs - just simply that they get their planning wrong due to lack of organisation, lack of communication between departments and refusing to admit fault due to the blame culture.
Once you accept that no such concept as "that's unfair" out here you'll be much less stressed.
B777 DEC will almost certainly happen to alleviate the double-demand on training which would otherwise be inevitable (Promote & Recruit vs. Just Recruit).
Not criticising the poster, but DECs have and always will be taken by EK. Not because they are better, not because they want to upset the FOs - just simply that they get their planning wrong due to lack of organisation, lack of communication between departments and refusing to admit fault due to the blame culture.
Once you accept that no such concept as "that's unfair" out here you'll be much less stressed.
B777 DEC will almost certainly happen to alleviate the double-demand on training which would otherwise be inevitable (Promote & Recruit vs. Just Recruit).
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Divide and conquer. Slamming Mr Mach won't change anything. There is lots of creative info out there, look at the packages on the website 85 hours/month = 1020/year so if you get your leave and training well over 100/month. What to believe?
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The fact is DEC's have and will be at EK forever. Would not be surprised if the current add changes to 330/777 to see if the response increases . I can also see 380 DEC's if and when the response for the 330/777 drops.
Don't think that lack of qualified FO applications will slow the expansion. It will only slow the upgrades.
Pilots are not a valued commodity . You can and will be replaced by a cheaper new hire be it FO or DEC.
Don't think that lack of qualified FO applications will slow the expansion. It will only slow the upgrades.
Pilots are not a valued commodity . You can and will be replaced by a cheaper new hire be it FO or DEC.
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I seriously wonder if we're not at a point where DECs will be continuously recruited. Sadly, not because of lack of qualified internal candidates, but because they're just not getting enough qualified applicants coming through the door. That's what I see as the big difference this time. I know the claim is that it's due to training places, but I think lack of suitable F/O applicants is another big factor. I'll be very curious to see where this round of DECs come from and what sort of quality they get. Seems to me there's plenty of superior options around for experienced Captains.
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EK Website has DEC 330
Ok so this is news to me then. The only DECs I know of where hired in 2005ish or so. Didn't know anything about the 2009ers. So that just goes to show the lies in the interviews and initial HR briefings the first week of joining. HR told us that DECs were many years ago and not a practice of the company any longer.
I made this a point of question prior to accepting the position and during the first week CFs answer was that the program was not as successful as they always plan it to be and that they would initiate fast tracks before hiring DECs this time. 👍
I made this a point of question prior to accepting the position and during the first week CFs answer was that the program was not as successful as they always plan it to be and that they would initiate fast tracks before hiring DECs this time. 👍
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Missing the forest for the trees???
There are a couple of things that have really been omitted from this discussion.
First, EK have never sought for their pilot’s opinion on DEC recruitment, and consequently they make their operational decisions very much regardless of the preferences of the F/Os that are waiting to either transition or upgrade, and definitely without consideration of the accepted practices in other airlines. They have done it in the past and will continue to do it in the future. It is a short term fix, which will have longer term implications just like all their other decisions.
Secondly, at EK a DEC candidate will normally undergo a full selection process, a full company induction, a full GCAA type conversion (regardless of it already being on his licence), a full EK command upgrade course (regardless of it already being on his licence) and then be subjected to the same line training and checking requirements as an upgrade candidate. In short the process of DEC recruitment is actually longer than a right to left upgrade! While many have passed, it is true that many a DEC has struggled with simultaneously joining the EK culture, doing an EK type endorsement, and doing an EK command course at the same time. Admittedly in an attempt to reduce the failure rate, this advertisement is only seeking A330 A340 previously qualified applicants.
Thirdly, DECs never leave the bottom of the seniority list. They are jumped by every F/O recruited ahead of them throughout their entire career in EK. Therefore within their bid group they will always have lower bidding preferences, and always get the least desirable flights……and the least desirable on the A330 network is pretty unimaginable!!
Fourth, the current A330 captains have been told they will be flying with new recruits. There will be an influx of low time, low experienced national cadets graduating in June, and they will be forced on to the A330 rather than any other aircraft because recruiting can’t find willing DEFO candidates.
Fifth, the admission that DECs and cadets are being recruited is a tacit admission that the A330 fleet will be retained for longer than previously predicted. There has been no announcement on the replacement type for the market that the A330 serves. With the ever shrinking A330 route network and existing company rules, it would take a new DEC at least 3-4 years to qualify for a A380 transition, and the type of flying and fatigue they would be exposed to during this period is pretty well documented on these forums. Even at the recent management wash-up they said that the aircraft will be retired next year, which begs the question why would you be desperately recruiting such large numbers to both seats of a retiring type???
The last round of DECs are already whining about their decision to join, so in my opinion any DEC who considered joining the A330 fleet would be reconsidering their quality of life decision in well under 6 months. Good luck....
The G.
First, EK have never sought for their pilot’s opinion on DEC recruitment, and consequently they make their operational decisions very much regardless of the preferences of the F/Os that are waiting to either transition or upgrade, and definitely without consideration of the accepted practices in other airlines. They have done it in the past and will continue to do it in the future. It is a short term fix, which will have longer term implications just like all their other decisions.
Secondly, at EK a DEC candidate will normally undergo a full selection process, a full company induction, a full GCAA type conversion (regardless of it already being on his licence), a full EK command upgrade course (regardless of it already being on his licence) and then be subjected to the same line training and checking requirements as an upgrade candidate. In short the process of DEC recruitment is actually longer than a right to left upgrade! While many have passed, it is true that many a DEC has struggled with simultaneously joining the EK culture, doing an EK type endorsement, and doing an EK command course at the same time. Admittedly in an attempt to reduce the failure rate, this advertisement is only seeking A330 A340 previously qualified applicants.
Thirdly, DECs never leave the bottom of the seniority list. They are jumped by every F/O recruited ahead of them throughout their entire career in EK. Therefore within their bid group they will always have lower bidding preferences, and always get the least desirable flights……and the least desirable on the A330 network is pretty unimaginable!!
Fourth, the current A330 captains have been told they will be flying with new recruits. There will be an influx of low time, low experienced national cadets graduating in June, and they will be forced on to the A330 rather than any other aircraft because recruiting can’t find willing DEFO candidates.
Fifth, the admission that DECs and cadets are being recruited is a tacit admission that the A330 fleet will be retained for longer than previously predicted. There has been no announcement on the replacement type for the market that the A330 serves. With the ever shrinking A330 route network and existing company rules, it would take a new DEC at least 3-4 years to qualify for a A380 transition, and the type of flying and fatigue they would be exposed to during this period is pretty well documented on these forums. Even at the recent management wash-up they said that the aircraft will be retired next year, which begs the question why would you be desperately recruiting such large numbers to both seats of a retiring type???
The last round of DECs are already whining about their decision to join, so in my opinion any DEC who considered joining the A330 fleet would be reconsidering their quality of life decision in well under 6 months. Good luck....
The G.
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EK Website has DEC 330
The Guru, excellent post.
One point, any requirement for A380 transitions would be waived, changed and lowered based on need. That's what they are doing now for the upgrade from right to left on the 380 since they can't get the 777 transitions they wanted. Only 26 were taken to the 380 instead of the 60 initial plan. They can't afford to take more from the 777.
One point, any requirement for A380 transitions would be waived, changed and lowered based on need. That's what they are doing now for the upgrade from right to left on the 380 since they can't get the 777 transitions they wanted. Only 26 were taken to the 380 instead of the 60 initial plan. They can't afford to take more from the 777.
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Since the 330/340 fleet will be gone in less than 2 years any DEC only has to endure a short amount of time doing night turns before going left seat 380 or 777. Boeing guys have all the current 330 destinations to look forward to so I'd say the offer is not as bad as people seem to think.