Emirates Illuminati/Do not Fly EK Websites
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pixy
Good post and agree with much of what you've said.
I was also about to respond to AC, in particular to his assertion that he doesn't get paid whilst he's sick or on leave. I would have, had I not received a personal message, the content of which was anything but professional. I will not go into detail as to it's content. However, for someone who prides himself on having worked for a US major I did found it rather ironic that he had the immaturity to send a fellow colleague such a spiteful and angry message. When you have to highlight your own professional prowess to someone you don't actually know, whilst deriding others, it's time for some serious introspection.
I will not be subtly bullied into sharing his frustration, made from his own wrongdoing and poor decisions that others are now being blamed for. His message, along with all his future posts will be ignored.
The sooner he 'rejoins' one of the illustrious US majors, the better it will be for all.
Good post and agree with much of what you've said.
I was also about to respond to AC, in particular to his assertion that he doesn't get paid whilst he's sick or on leave. I would have, had I not received a personal message, the content of which was anything but professional. I will not go into detail as to it's content. However, for someone who prides himself on having worked for a US major I did found it rather ironic that he had the immaturity to send a fellow colleague such a spiteful and angry message. When you have to highlight your own professional prowess to someone you don't actually know, whilst deriding others, it's time for some serious introspection.
I will not be subtly bullied into sharing his frustration, made from his own wrongdoing and poor decisions that others are now being blamed for. His message, along with all his future posts will be ignored.
The sooner he 'rejoins' one of the illustrious US majors, the better it will be for all.
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BY if you think AC is paid for leave, sick days, ground duties, etc, do you also think he's paid to sleep, eat meals, go sailing and have days off at home? In that case, it'd seem you're correct. A month's salary for a whole month of anything.
If that is the case, then why is he paid for "credit hours" which do not include those items? It's hard to see why you don't agree that after 15days leave being rostered for 65 credit hours (and possibly some non-credit duties also) in the remaining 16 days is effectively doing most of a month's work in only half a month. Maybe I've missed the point but I've never heard people defending the current system until now.
Many years ago we used to be awarded I think it was 2.5hrs credit for a Leave Day. That's not being "paid" for leave but it amounted to the same thing. TCK changed that.
If that is the case, then why is he paid for "credit hours" which do not include those items? It's hard to see why you don't agree that after 15days leave being rostered for 65 credit hours (and possibly some non-credit duties also) in the remaining 16 days is effectively doing most of a month's work in only half a month. Maybe I've missed the point but I've never heard people defending the current system until now.
Many years ago we used to be awarded I think it was 2.5hrs credit for a Leave Day. That's not being "paid" for leave but it amounted to the same thing. TCK changed that.
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No, that's not what I'm saying. I agree that we do duties that in theory are awarded 'phantom' credit in the build of the roster but when the rosters are produced, are then overlooked, especially when they do not attract the hourly rate. I've had numerous months of being paid up to the monthly limit but have 2 or 3 non payable duties rostered. That means I've sometimes worked 15 hours for free! This is wrong, as is doing 55.5 hours in the month of Feb with 14 days leave. The system should award a max of 41.5 hours if you apply what the Company agreed to. They're milking the system and it leaves a bad taste in many mouths. That I'm not denying.
But, I will still get paid for those extra 13.5 hours, as I will while I'm on leave. I get paid my full basic while i'm off sick and I get paid my full basic while I'm on leave. That's fact. The other issues are rostering practices and not related to my initial post. AC's post would imply that he doesn't get paid for either.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I agree that we do duties that in theory are awarded 'phantom' credit in the build of the roster but when the rosters are produced, are then overlooked, especially when they do not attract the hourly rate. I've had numerous months of being paid up to the monthly limit but have 2 or 3 non payable duties rostered. That means I've sometimes worked 15 hours for free! This is wrong, as is doing 55.5 hours in the month of Feb with 14 days leave. The system should award a max of 41.5 hours if you apply what the Company agreed to. They're milking the system and it leaves a bad taste in many mouths. That I'm not denying.
But, I will still get paid for those extra 13.5 hours, as I will while I'm on leave. I get paid my full basic while i'm off sick and I get paid my full basic while I'm on leave. That's fact. The other issues are rostering practices and not related to my initial post. AC's post would imply that he doesn't get paid for either.
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It is the difference between pay and credit- we get paid for leave in that we get the same basic if we have leave or not. We do not get credit for leave, groundschool or simulators which means that you can end up with a month of flying squeezed into three weeks or less. That is wrong (and fatiguing) no matter what you call it. I think that is what posters are getting at.
short flights long nights
What Geordie says is correct. We used to get credit for leave. 2.5 hours per day, that was effectively getting paid for it. It stopped what is going on at the moment, where you get two weeks leave, and still get a 70 hour roster.
I'm sure the office people don't have to work weekends to make up for the days they get on leave.
May I add, that my contract says that I get 6 weeks leave a year. I can't remember the last time that happened.
However, I can't complain anymore, I took the management advise,....if you don't like it leave....the count down continues.
I'm sure the office people don't have to work weekends to make up for the days they get on leave.
May I add, that my contract says that I get 6 weeks leave a year. I can't remember the last time that happened.
However, I can't complain anymore, I took the management advise,....if you don't like it leave....the count down continues.
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BG/SOPS
Point taken and agreed with. I think the roster build still puts in credit for those duties you mention to initially balance the roster but it's simply a case of supply and demand. We haven't enough pilots, hence the unbalanced work hours during leave months and training duties not included in the final months credit total.
Point taken and agreed with. I think the roster build still puts in credit for those duties you mention to initially balance the roster but it's simply a case of supply and demand. We haven't enough pilots, hence the unbalanced work hours during leave months and training duties not included in the final months credit total.
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@fliion - my apologies if my comment was interpreted as me saying that you wanted something like this to happen and I'd like to clarify. Over the years I've read hundreds if not thousands of posts regarding this topic, I'm not oblivious to the issues of fatigue nor in denial that they exist. I get up for my 9-5 Mon - Fri. job, I tend to sleep late, rely on 5-6 hours of sleep and get through the day just fine. There are days when I find myself slightly more exhausted than before...but this is a professional job in an office...it's nowhere near the same as being a pilot and I can only imagine how much more difficult it is when you're trying to land a jetliner with 300 people in the back, in the middle of the night, during monsoon season in a third world country...and then have to fly back and arrive home at 6-7 AM. As I have been a passenger on one of those flights to that part of the world...I can only say thank you to the professional ad skillful pilots that have gotten me to my destination and back in conditions which I would not want to be working in.
My main concern is just how the repeated mentioning of a likely incident happening being interpreted...I've flown well over a million miles in my life, and flying to me has always been an adventure, and I hardly ever worry with turbulence or rough weather conditions because at some point you just get used to it and know you're in good hands with the most qualified individuals up front handling everything. The very first time I knew about any fatigue related issues was the Melbourne incident, I started to pay more attention to this forum and the comments being made. With what seems to have been a lucky escape for EK, and thinking "Well thank God, if it wasn't for those pilots this could have been a very tragic situation."...I was actually very confident of my next EK flight. But then you start seeing all the complaints, and while it's easier to complain than give praise...it got me thinking just a little bit. When the complaints started to turn into predictions of a smoking hole and that being the only way to get mgmt to change...it can be a bit unnerving. You get on a plane for a late night flight, but you never know how rested the men up front are...or what the conditions are going to be which are going to depend on the alertness and experience of those that are responsible for your safe arrival...as I said I've been reading these comments for some time. In a way I think it's good to read this because it sheds more light on reality...but the drawback is that it creates negative thinking, not just from a passenger standpoint but I'm sure from pilots to cabin crew, to anyone that is a a part of this. I think the negative reality of it, and living in times when a/c go missing in the middle of the night, fly into massive thunderstorms and then fall out of the sky, it's a bit scary to put it straight. Sometimes the comments I have read over the last few years...it gives the perception (that would be the right word) that the conditions are just so bad that maybe these guys are just waiting for an incident to happen in order for maybe, just maybe some change from mgmt.
When I say I'm a fan of the product, it's the complete product from a passenger standpoint. The a/c's, the seats, the food, the entertainment, the service, the employee at the check-in counter that likely does not get paid very well, to the wonderful cabin crew that always seem to show a professional attitude and willingness to deal with even the most difficult of passengers, to the men and women in charge of flying the aircraft up front...to the commercials on TV, and the branding of the company...I am a fan of it. Now, the one thing I'm happy to admit that while being a fan and a loyal traveler...there are some things which are easy to forget or ignore, such as the working conditions and how hard the employees are really being worked. I suppose there must be less than 10% of overall passengers who might be aware, or even care...after all they pay for a ticket, expect a level of service, want this and that, and get to their destination and collect their miles. Safety tends to be something which is not thought about as much as it should...and at least not with a passenger. But with the people responsible for making sure you get from point A to point B...it's likely one of the very first things you think about, and are always thinking about. Because when I turn on my ICE unit and sip on my champagne, I'm probably scrolling through the channels wondering what tv show/movie should I watch next? I suppose these "products" mask reality and are fairly effective in masking reality as well. My apologies if my words were misinterpreted for me saying that there are a lot of EK folk that want something bad to happen...that wasn't my intention, I was trying to say that after following this forum for years, and reading thousands of comments...and there are positive comments sure, but the negative ones drown those out and whenever the word incident/accident gets mentioned (and it gets mentioned here and there) and that it might be the only way that mgmt changes...yeah it's bit scary.
Thank you for taking the time to address some of my concerns with the previous replies, I personally believe that EK hires some of the best pilots in the world and I would only hope that in the near future conditions for all employees improve to where you read about more positive comments etc. I'm hopeful of it anyways, but I guess it's much easier saying that and thinking that as one of the passengers that sits in the back...perception vs. reality is always different.
My main concern is just how the repeated mentioning of a likely incident happening being interpreted...I've flown well over a million miles in my life, and flying to me has always been an adventure, and I hardly ever worry with turbulence or rough weather conditions because at some point you just get used to it and know you're in good hands with the most qualified individuals up front handling everything. The very first time I knew about any fatigue related issues was the Melbourne incident, I started to pay more attention to this forum and the comments being made. With what seems to have been a lucky escape for EK, and thinking "Well thank God, if it wasn't for those pilots this could have been a very tragic situation."...I was actually very confident of my next EK flight. But then you start seeing all the complaints, and while it's easier to complain than give praise...it got me thinking just a little bit. When the complaints started to turn into predictions of a smoking hole and that being the only way to get mgmt to change...it can be a bit unnerving. You get on a plane for a late night flight, but you never know how rested the men up front are...or what the conditions are going to be which are going to depend on the alertness and experience of those that are responsible for your safe arrival...as I said I've been reading these comments for some time. In a way I think it's good to read this because it sheds more light on reality...but the drawback is that it creates negative thinking, not just from a passenger standpoint but I'm sure from pilots to cabin crew, to anyone that is a a part of this. I think the negative reality of it, and living in times when a/c go missing in the middle of the night, fly into massive thunderstorms and then fall out of the sky, it's a bit scary to put it straight. Sometimes the comments I have read over the last few years...it gives the perception (that would be the right word) that the conditions are just so bad that maybe these guys are just waiting for an incident to happen in order for maybe, just maybe some change from mgmt.
When I say I'm a fan of the product, it's the complete product from a passenger standpoint. The a/c's, the seats, the food, the entertainment, the service, the employee at the check-in counter that likely does not get paid very well, to the wonderful cabin crew that always seem to show a professional attitude and willingness to deal with even the most difficult of passengers, to the men and women in charge of flying the aircraft up front...to the commercials on TV, and the branding of the company...I am a fan of it. Now, the one thing I'm happy to admit that while being a fan and a loyal traveler...there are some things which are easy to forget or ignore, such as the working conditions and how hard the employees are really being worked. I suppose there must be less than 10% of overall passengers who might be aware, or even care...after all they pay for a ticket, expect a level of service, want this and that, and get to their destination and collect their miles. Safety tends to be something which is not thought about as much as it should...and at least not with a passenger. But with the people responsible for making sure you get from point A to point B...it's likely one of the very first things you think about, and are always thinking about. Because when I turn on my ICE unit and sip on my champagne, I'm probably scrolling through the channels wondering what tv show/movie should I watch next? I suppose these "products" mask reality and are fairly effective in masking reality as well. My apologies if my words were misinterpreted for me saying that there are a lot of EK folk that want something bad to happen...that wasn't my intention, I was trying to say that after following this forum for years, and reading thousands of comments...and there are positive comments sure, but the negative ones drown those out and whenever the word incident/accident gets mentioned (and it gets mentioned here and there) and that it might be the only way that mgmt changes...yeah it's bit scary.
Thank you for taking the time to address some of my concerns with the previous replies, I personally believe that EK hires some of the best pilots in the world and I would only hope that in the near future conditions for all employees improve to where you read about more positive comments etc. I'm hopeful of it anyways, but I guess it's much easier saying that and thinking that as one of the passengers that sits in the back...perception vs. reality is always different.
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Stylo,
I still don't see how you manage to separate the product from the service.
And I am sure that further discussion will not clarify anything because for you that product is your glass of champagne and a movie on ICE.
Nobody asks you to empathize with employees and their problems. Now you sound like EK managers who say they want to "help" whenever they agree to develop a discussion with their employees and to address some of their problems. Do you think that managers are there "to help" or to do their job?
It's like this: problems of employees ARE PART of the product. When you get your glass of champagne, your are also served with some tiredness, some unhappiness and some dissatisfaction. If you choose not to see it it's your right, but when your plane starts to fall from the sky, I guess that it would be the very moment when you will ask yourself whether that glass of champagne is your last one because it was served with something you chose not to see.
There is something called "passengers' culture" as well. You can seat, drink your drink, enjoy the ride and think of no one around you, expecting your high level service because you paid for it. Or you can do all of that and be aware of things happening around you and actually ACT when you see injustice or something that doesn't seem right.
Have you ever written a feedback to EK managers about your safety concerns? You are the customer, therefore you CAN, actually, complain and your complaint can be even taken seriously. It can also find its way to public through various consumers' organizations. You can change something on a bigger scale. But you chose to come here instead. Why is that?
Try and write a letter to Emirates' managers and ask them why their pilots predict an accident. I guess they will have an answer which will reflect their positive thinking and will calm you down.
I still don't see how you manage to separate the product from the service.
And I am sure that further discussion will not clarify anything because for you that product is your glass of champagne and a movie on ICE.
Nobody asks you to empathize with employees and their problems. Now you sound like EK managers who say they want to "help" whenever they agree to develop a discussion with their employees and to address some of their problems. Do you think that managers are there "to help" or to do their job?
It's like this: problems of employees ARE PART of the product. When you get your glass of champagne, your are also served with some tiredness, some unhappiness and some dissatisfaction. If you choose not to see it it's your right, but when your plane starts to fall from the sky, I guess that it would be the very moment when you will ask yourself whether that glass of champagne is your last one because it was served with something you chose not to see.
There is something called "passengers' culture" as well. You can seat, drink your drink, enjoy the ride and think of no one around you, expecting your high level service because you paid for it. Or you can do all of that and be aware of things happening around you and actually ACT when you see injustice or something that doesn't seem right.
Have you ever written a feedback to EK managers about your safety concerns? You are the customer, therefore you CAN, actually, complain and your complaint can be even taken seriously. It can also find its way to public through various consumers' organizations. You can change something on a bigger scale. But you chose to come here instead. Why is that?
Try and write a letter to Emirates' managers and ask them why their pilots predict an accident. I guess they will have an answer which will reflect their positive thinking and will calm you down.
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Jesus christ, did anyone actually read either of those last two posts? No?
Anyway, BYmonek you seem to think the company means well in rostering. Looking at your join date = 2004 or something, have you been here since 2004? If so, you should be well aware of the rot which set in back then.
This is not about "supply and demand....haven't enough pilots, "hence" (???) unbalanced work hours during leave months". Seriously????
Zero credit for leave is strictly intentional and a part of how the company continues to make more and more money: Part of every annual profit is cost cutting and staff shaftings.
Anyway, BYmonek you seem to think the company means well in rostering. Looking at your join date = 2004 or something, have you been here since 2004? If so, you should be well aware of the rot which set in back then.
This is not about "supply and demand....haven't enough pilots, "hence" (???) unbalanced work hours during leave months". Seriously????
Zero credit for leave is strictly intentional and a part of how the company continues to make more and more money: Part of every annual profit is cost cutting and staff shaftings.
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I came here for the same reason as most others...to express an opinion and/or thought. However, for a change...I wanted to share this as coming from a passenger and aviation enthusiast.
I'll be happy to consider writing a letter to EK managers and sharing my thoughts. While I understand what you are saying about choosing not to see something, and not be aware...99% of passengers do not see this, they see a smiling face (whether it's a real smile or a forced smile), they see how CC respond to their needs, and they simply make a judgement on overall level of service based off that. After all, you can't expect them to know of the problems behind the scene. Airlines...and I don't know of any single airline that does not do this, but they will always want to mask their problems as much as possible...it doesn't matter if it's a US airline, a European airline, a Middle East airline, or an Asian airline.
Your statement on the product, is true and understandable...but it is a whole lot more than 99.9% of passengers are going to see. To most pax, it's a lot more simple (which is unfortunate, but it's the same across all airlines to a certain degree). It's just their perception...when you read a trip report about EKxxx from DXB to XXX, or BAxxx from LHR to XXX...passengers talk about the experience at the airport, condition of the aircraft, the food, the entertainment, comfort of service, professionalism of cabin crew, etc. and it is seen as an overall review of the product, which hundreds..maybe thousands of people read and perceive as what they can expect as the "product". As you said, reality is a bit more than that...unfortunately it's the reality that a vast majority do not get to see.
I'll be happy to consider writing a letter to EK managers and sharing my thoughts. While I understand what you are saying about choosing not to see something, and not be aware...99% of passengers do not see this, they see a smiling face (whether it's a real smile or a forced smile), they see how CC respond to their needs, and they simply make a judgement on overall level of service based off that. After all, you can't expect them to know of the problems behind the scene. Airlines...and I don't know of any single airline that does not do this, but they will always want to mask their problems as much as possible...it doesn't matter if it's a US airline, a European airline, a Middle East airline, or an Asian airline.
Your statement on the product, is true and understandable...but it is a whole lot more than 99.9% of passengers are going to see. To most pax, it's a lot more simple (which is unfortunate, but it's the same across all airlines to a certain degree). It's just their perception...when you read a trip report about EKxxx from DXB to XXX, or BAxxx from LHR to XXX...passengers talk about the experience at the airport, condition of the aircraft, the food, the entertainment, comfort of service, professionalism of cabin crew, etc. and it is seen as an overall review of the product, which hundreds..maybe thousands of people read and perceive as what they can expect as the "product". As you said, reality is a bit more than that...unfortunately it's the reality that a vast majority do not get to see.
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Well here we go again. I never said I don't get paid when I am on vacation or out sick. What I said which Bymonk has such a hard time understanding is that we as Emirates pilots don't get any vacation pay or sick pay. As I alludeded to earlier if we call in sick CC gives us another trip or if they can't squeeze that in they put us on AVialable Days at the very least.
Another fine example of Emirates screwing us is with vacation credit. I had 21 days vacation in a 31 day month and still flew 44 hours in the month. How did I get any vacation credit? I flew 44 hours in 10 days. Wow! Sometimes when you only have 7 days vacation a pilot still flies a full 92 hour month. How is that vacation pay and what is the point of taking vacation if you are going to fly a full month anyway? One would need another vacation to recover from flying 92 hours in 24 days instead of 31 days.
There was nothing unprofessional in my PM to Bymonk. He just didn't like how I tried to explain the inner workings of a real contract to him. It was not spiteful and angry, just direct. If Bymonk thinks that is Bully type behavior then he needs to develope thicker skin or get off the forum. I for one wishes he stays because it exposes the company men that purview this site with their mentality they posses and what we as Emirates pilots are up against.
Another fine example of Emirates screwing us is with vacation credit. I had 21 days vacation in a 31 day month and still flew 44 hours in the month. How did I get any vacation credit? I flew 44 hours in 10 days. Wow! Sometimes when you only have 7 days vacation a pilot still flies a full 92 hour month. How is that vacation pay and what is the point of taking vacation if you are going to fly a full month anyway? One would need another vacation to recover from flying 92 hours in 24 days instead of 31 days.
There was nothing unprofessional in my PM to Bymonk. He just didn't like how I tried to explain the inner workings of a real contract to him. It was not spiteful and angry, just direct. If Bymonk thinks that is Bully type behavior then he needs to develope thicker skin or get off the forum. I for one wishes he stays because it exposes the company men that purview this site with their mentality they posses and what we as Emirates pilots are up against.
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Stylo,
Your input is valuable. It reveals the pressure that employees have to handle. From the customers' point of view they are responsible if your flight is delayed, if your food is bad and if your plane goes down. Even if an overworked pilot does make a mistake, he/she will still be proclaimed as a guilty one.
Managers are sitting in their Dark Tower and while they are the real culprits for all of the above, nobody addresses to them, including their bosses in this case.
I guess that all of the complaints and websites about EK management have one purpose only - to send a warning and if something does go wrong it will take the responsibility off the staff's back. It also means that if something bad happens everyone will see that the problem is deeper than one pilot's mistake. It will make EK lose more customers than they would originally lose by blaming one pilot and his/her FO.
I still don't understand why you are complaining to the pilots, though. Nobody wants to die in a plane crash, including them.
Be a responsible passenger and fan and send your concerns to the useful address. Sauron will be glad to answer them.
Your input is valuable. It reveals the pressure that employees have to handle. From the customers' point of view they are responsible if your flight is delayed, if your food is bad and if your plane goes down. Even if an overworked pilot does make a mistake, he/she will still be proclaimed as a guilty one.
Managers are sitting in their Dark Tower and while they are the real culprits for all of the above, nobody addresses to them, including their bosses in this case.
I guess that all of the complaints and websites about EK management have one purpose only - to send a warning and if something does go wrong it will take the responsibility off the staff's back. It also means that if something bad happens everyone will see that the problem is deeper than one pilot's mistake. It will make EK lose more customers than they would originally lose by blaming one pilot and his/her FO.
I still don't understand why you are complaining to the pilots, though. Nobody wants to die in a plane crash, including them.
Be a responsible passenger and fan and send your concerns to the useful address. Sauron will be glad to answer them.
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Assuming you're a Captain, it's simple. If you're fatigued, tell them and that's an end of it. If you think you're okay, do the flight. If you're really tired at the end and you thought safety was compromised, file a fatigue report. For Christ sake man, just grow some balls, do the job and stop bloody whinging about something that you DO have control over.
As I heard on a CRM course once, There are a certain number of Captains in this Company who are more afraid of the mahogany desk than they are of the mahogany box. You must be one of them. Please PM me and give me your staff number, one to avoid when I and the family fly!
As for PM's, Alconguin Crusader, you obviously must make it a habit of sending nice little messages to those that haven't joined the union bandwagon. You have an unhealthy obsession for accusing everyone who's not always complaining of working for crap airlines. Or as you quoted to me last year "at a ****e carrier". As for the 'we as Emirates pilots' quote, please don't include me as one of your chummy colleagues bud, our viewpoints are poles apart.
Well, you have no idea who I worked for before but I will say one thing. It wasn't NWA.
Harry
Assuming you're a Captain, it's simple. If you're fatigued, tell them and that's an end of it. If you think you're okay, do the flight. If you're really tired at the end and you thought safety was compromised, file a fatigue report. For Christ sake man, just grow some balls, do the job and stop bloody whinging about something that you DO have control over.
As I heard on a CRM course once, There are a certain number of Captains in this Company who are more afraid of the mahogany desk than they are of the mahogany box. You must be one of them. Please PM me and give me your staff number, one to avoid when I and the family fly!
As for PM's, Alconguin Crusader, you obviously must make it a habit of sending nice little messages to those that haven't joined the union bandwagon. You have an unhealthy obsession for accusing everyone who's not always complaining of working for crap airlines. Or as you quoted to me last year "at a ****e carrier". As for the 'we as Emirates pilots' quote, please don't include me as one of your chummy colleagues bud, our viewpoints are poles apart.
Well, you have no idea who I worked for before but I will say one thing. It wasn't NWA.
Harry
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Harry
One of the foundations of this forum is anonymity. We exchange views under pseudonyms without the possibility of punitive action from you know who.
Outing someone regardless of their view is not on.
I've been on the receiving end of his private messages - yes pathetic - but let's leave the real names alone.
f.
One of the foundations of this forum is anonymity. We exchange views under pseudonyms without the possibility of punitive action from you know who.
Outing someone regardless of their view is not on.
I've been on the receiving end of his private messages - yes pathetic - but let's leave the real names alone.
f.
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Nikita
Nah, these guys are complaining they're f****d enough. Growing a lady garden would make them bitch and moan even more. Thanks for the suggestion though!
Harry
fliion, fair point, removed as requested. Poor form on my part, apologies!
Nah, these guys are complaining they're f****d enough. Growing a lady garden would make them bitch and moan even more. Thanks for the suggestion though!
Harry
fliion, fair point, removed as requested. Poor form on my part, apologies!
