So about EK...
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So about EK...
Ladies and gentlemen, I have read most of the existing threads about Emirates here and I feel very up to date on recruitment procedure. However the info on roster, pay and accomodation gets old very quickly. I don't want this post to drown in the big EK thread, so I would like to ask a few questions here if you don't mind. I realise there probably is no certain answer to most questions but would really appreciate your thoughts.
I am in my mid twenties with just over 3000 hours on B737. No family to support.
People obviously not happy with Meydan accom, i checked around and figured that the allowance will get me a decent flat around the Marina. Are the rent hikes so bad that the allowance won't be enough in a few years?
Is 777 fleet going to become the "new" 330 fleet? IE night turns in the region and 8 days off a month, because I wouldn't want to leave my current job for that. However a nice mix of flying and 15 days off a month I could really do with.
Is the financial package really that bad? The salary posted on the website (~29000 AED) doesn't sound so bad, given all bills are paid. Am I missing something obvious here?
Time to command estimates are hard, but is it going to be over 7 years?
Most importantly, are your colleagues nice people to fly with in general?
I am in my mid twenties with just over 3000 hours on B737. No family to support.
People obviously not happy with Meydan accom, i checked around and figured that the allowance will get me a decent flat around the Marina. Are the rent hikes so bad that the allowance won't be enough in a few years?
Is 777 fleet going to become the "new" 330 fleet? IE night turns in the region and 8 days off a month, because I wouldn't want to leave my current job for that. However a nice mix of flying and 15 days off a month I could really do with.
Is the financial package really that bad? The salary posted on the website (~29000 AED) doesn't sound so bad, given all bills are paid. Am I missing something obvious here?
Time to command estimates are hard, but is it going to be over 7 years?
Most importantly, are your colleagues nice people to fly with in general?
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777 will be the chosen one to do all the night turns as the A330 and A340 aircraft go. Most of the US will shortly become A380 as is the case in Australia.
I would certainly not count on getting 15 days off a month. The minimum is 8 days to recover and welcome to an airline that is good at running a fatigue programme that would not be allowed in other countries.
29k AED is a good salary for a single person but, you will find it rather expensive here and your salary will not be as good as you think as it will not stretch as far as it would in your homeland.
777 command, 7 years as as good a guess as any (for today).
Most crew are professional and friendly, you will rarely fly with the same crew member in a year.
I would certainly not count on getting 15 days off a month. The minimum is 8 days to recover and welcome to an airline that is good at running a fatigue programme that would not be allowed in other countries.
29k AED is a good salary for a single person but, you will find it rather expensive here and your salary will not be as good as you think as it will not stretch as far as it would in your homeland.
777 command, 7 years as as good a guess as any (for today).
Most crew are professional and friendly, you will rarely fly with the same crew member in a year.
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Thanks for the answer, much appreciated.
For reference I'm currently working for SAS on short haul. Variable roster with 12 days off per month (minimum 1 weekend) and piss poor pay on their new pay scale. Command/Long haul 7 years away, earning EUR3000 before tax and continously battling the company trying to outsource its flying staff.
Seriously considering a move abroad.
Not Ryanair though, came from there and would rather be homeless than work for them again.
For reference I'm currently working for SAS on short haul. Variable roster with 12 days off per month (minimum 1 weekend) and piss poor pay on their new pay scale. Command/Long haul 7 years away, earning EUR3000 before tax and continously battling the company trying to outsource its flying staff.
Seriously considering a move abroad.
Not Ryanair though, came from there and would rather be homeless than work for them again.
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It's a crap shoot.
I honestly believe if EK could roster everyone 8 days off a month they would. The new bidding system will allow them greater flexibility in rostering and eliminate any wastage on their part, i.e. if the company goal is 90 hours you won't get 87.3 hours you will get 89.7 hours.
The issue with renting is this. For those of us that were here 8 years ago rents doubled every year. The landlords were not allowed to raise your rent more than 10% a year. So the landlords kicked you out half way through your lease, then rented to someone else at a much higher rate. People were moving every 6-8 months. It is happening again to a lesser degree but you could get caught in the cycle of moving twice a year and trying to find a new place. It's lots of fun. I moved 4 times my first two years here.
Also remember eight days off is 50% fewer than you get now. 1 day off 5 days on 1 day off 7 days on 2 days off 5 days on 1 day off 4 days on 2 days off 3 days on. That's what 8 days off looks like here. Half of those 8 days are single days. I have gone 13 days with one day off 4 times this year. It is flat out brutal. I wish you luck in wherever you choose to go. I would explore all your options.
The issue with renting is this. For those of us that were here 8 years ago rents doubled every year. The landlords were not allowed to raise your rent more than 10% a year. So the landlords kicked you out half way through your lease, then rented to someone else at a much higher rate. People were moving every 6-8 months. It is happening again to a lesser degree but you could get caught in the cycle of moving twice a year and trying to find a new place. It's lots of fun. I moved 4 times my first two years here.
Also remember eight days off is 50% fewer than you get now. 1 day off 5 days on 1 day off 7 days on 2 days off 5 days on 1 day off 4 days on 2 days off 3 days on. That's what 8 days off looks like here. Half of those 8 days are single days. I have gone 13 days with one day off 4 times this year. It is flat out brutal. I wish you luck in wherever you choose to go. I would explore all your options.
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Good questions by the OP who has obviously done a lot of research already. On the point of salary not going as far as expected in Dubai, this statement, a common one on PPRuNe, has got to be down to perceptions?
I am a FO living in London with no kids, I live comfortably but saving is almost impossible. Price comparison websites indicate the cost of living in Dubai is 15-20% less than London, with the main exception being alcohol
.
In Dubai I would have rent paid AND my net salary would be 25% more. On paper that indicates I should be able to save a lot more in Dubai than I can in London. In short I am accustomed to high prices and high rent.
If you don't originate from an expensive city then it is understandable that you might over estimate your net salary? Is that what is happening? There is after all unforeseen costs and taxes in all countries
I am a FO living in London with no kids, I live comfortably but saving is almost impossible. Price comparison websites indicate the cost of living in Dubai is 15-20% less than London, with the main exception being alcohol
. In Dubai I would have rent paid AND my net salary would be 25% more. On paper that indicates I should be able to save a lot more in Dubai than I can in London. In short I am accustomed to high prices and high rent.
If you don't originate from an expensive city then it is understandable that you might over estimate your net salary? Is that what is happening? There is after all unforeseen costs and taxes in all countries
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WideB
You're missing some big points...
In London, you have culture, things to do, and a very good public transportation system.
In Dubai, as you said, you will pay slightly less for rents, but you'll stumble out of your flat into sand or a construction zone, or have to sneak your way through the cars that are illegally parked on the street with their flashers.
With the money I pay for rent, I could live in NYC (not quite 5th ave or upper east side, but in manhatten). One thing for sure, I can't walk outside my apartment and see an award winning broadway show, walk to 1,000 shops and restaurants, see movies without people making phone calls and cross the streets without having to look for a blacked out nissan patrol going 180k through a red light... you get the point.
Also, flying during the day here is getting less and less. Maybe its hard to keep track with the lack of many days off.
CC
You're missing some big points...
In London, you have culture, things to do, and a very good public transportation system.
In Dubai, as you said, you will pay slightly less for rents, but you'll stumble out of your flat into sand or a construction zone, or have to sneak your way through the cars that are illegally parked on the street with their flashers.
With the money I pay for rent, I could live in NYC (not quite 5th ave or upper east side, but in manhatten). One thing for sure, I can't walk outside my apartment and see an award winning broadway show, walk to 1,000 shops and restaurants, see movies without people making phone calls and cross the streets without having to look for a blacked out nissan patrol going 180k through a red light... you get the point.
Also, flying during the day here is getting less and less. Maybe its hard to keep track with the lack of many days off.
CC
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Am I missing something obvious here?
As we all agree, in the civilised world the airline industry is in trouble. It is however quite cyclic, as proven now with the recall in the US and the UK.
As you should have distilled by now, the industry in the ME is in a big bubble, but the conditions for the newcomers only point in one direction: Lower.
So if you have a job back home, there is a chance that the cycle can wash you down, certainly, but just as much that it can present opportunities.
If you come to EK today, the only certainty is that the conditions will deteriorate.
Unfortunately any information you gather now, any rosy picture you draw up for yourself will be history by tomorrow. It has been like that for the last ~6 years with no sign of any softening trend. On the contrary.
There is more risk here than home. Again, this considering you having a halfway decent job back there.
Don't think twice, think hard trice ....... for us, stuck in the sandpit, your situation is a no brainer.
Don't go,don't go,don't go!
Having flown as an expat in varied cultures there are far more things valued than the salary you receive.
Unfortunately discovering this two or three years after you have joined a new mob in the sandpit is a bitter pill to swallow.
Act in haste, repent at leisure!
Having flown as an expat in varied cultures there are far more things valued than the salary you receive.
Unfortunately discovering this two or three years after you have joined a new mob in the sandpit is a bitter pill to swallow.
Act in haste, repent at leisure!
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Been here 13 + years and it has progressively gone down hill, lately getting faster. Greed is the underlying goal.you the employee are not held in any regard at all. New hire upgrades will be determined only by attrition, the overall fleet size is almost reached. The recent servey was a shock to senior mangament,might see some changes but that will take years, in the mean time 100's will leave making room for upwards movement, until the hull loss. At which point I and many others hope to not be here. If you think you have seen finger pointing wait til then. Presently , can't wait to get out of here.
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fightthepower
The responses you'll receive are likely to be subjective rather than objective as circumstances are different for each and everyone one of us. These emotive factors will undoubtedly be reflected in our personal views on EK and Dubai.
Firstly, the easy question to answer. Most of our colleagues are generally good company and professional and as already stated, rarely do you fly with the same crew twice. As in every airline, there is the odd exception!
Let's start with Dubai. It's a love it or hate it mentality. Even if you love it, you'll hate the driving. It is frustrating and dangerous with massive variation in standards and mainly young locals intent on killing themselves and anyone who might get in their way. Ignorance and arrogance in equal deadly measure. Alcohol is expensive but no more so than Scandinavia I'd imagine and actually cheap when you bundle it in with buffet offers in hotels. Then it becomes a good deal, especially with so many discounts available through either Emirates Platinum card or Emirates Pilots Club. these can offer anything from 10-50% off in restaurants, excluding weekends mainly. Weather is brutal in summer so outdoor activity from May through to end of September is very restrictive. Rest of year is generally good. Nice beaches with ongoing work to 'beautify' the coast and more facilities being added. Public transport improving all the time, metro (busy), tram, regular buses. Not sure how often CaptainChipotle uses them but they are efficient and cheap (far cheaper than London). Most importantly, Dubai is a safe city. You'll feel safe outside, anywhere and anytime, far more so than any other city I've been to except perhaps in Japan.
What about EK? It would take way too long to go into every detail but contrary to your post, the basics haven't really changed. Emirates is little different to any other airline out there and conditions are only ever going one way 'whilst' there is a surplus of supply. You will work hard. 3 of my last 4 years have resulted in over 900 hours pay. Rules will be pushed and interpreted to fit the program and admin issues can be tiresome. You'll deal with robots, morons and cultures so intent on furthering their own sycophantic desires that if they wobble their heads any more, they'll fall off. The Boeing will certainly take over the A330 type of flying but with 150 B777 in service /on order, there'll still be plenty of layovers too. The A380 is the flagship and will do mostly stateside and big destinations, such as London. However, make no mistake, this Company is a money making machine and will put the big bird where it makes the money. If India opens up it's seat quota, a 2 class 'Super' will be plying the route in no time. The B777X will be a game changer in fuel but will still be the workhorse. You will be on the Boeing when you start. Where you go after that is up to what policy is in force that particular day! Same for command, but 7 years is a ballpark.
What I do like is the variation of routes. Turnrounds, layovers, freighters (B777) and range of flying from simple 2 sector 40 minute Doha return to a 16hr San Francisco. 24hour layover to a 10 day cargo trip. As a single guy, this airline is difficult to beat for variety. As for accommodation, Meydan may well be the ultimate destination of all pilots but while you're single, an apartment will be offered. You'll be in this for some time I'd imagine. Unless you're prepared to rent some tiny grotto and save the allowance, do not rent. Always go with Company accommodation first, you can always change later if things get really bad. You can't do it in reverse. Better still, if you have some money to bring over, consider buying, even a small apartment. 200K euro would get you a 1 bed good area or 2 bed still in decent location. You'd get an additional $4000 a month to help pay that mortgage off. That's on top of the $8700 you'd be getting each month. (29,000 dhs basic plus 3000 flight pay). You do the maths. A single guy, clearing $12,700 a month....as a F/O. The Company will also put in 12% of your salary into the Provident fund each month, increasing to 15% after 10 years. You'll do 5%.
So, if it's for financial improvement, it's a no brainer, especially if you're single. However, don't make this move just for the money. It's a lifestyle change here and you become part of Dubai and EK. There is lot's to do here, it's what you make of it. Don't expect to come here and then wonder why you can't put on your boots and go for long trecks through fjords and mountains thick with pine trees. If you can accept that and the fact that there is an almost unlimited supply of pretty cabin crew prepared to keep you company, this may be the place for you.
Come out for a week and give it a try. You'll either love it or hate it!
Harry
The responses you'll receive are likely to be subjective rather than objective as circumstances are different for each and everyone one of us. These emotive factors will undoubtedly be reflected in our personal views on EK and Dubai.
Firstly, the easy question to answer. Most of our colleagues are generally good company and professional and as already stated, rarely do you fly with the same crew twice. As in every airline, there is the odd exception!
Let's start with Dubai. It's a love it or hate it mentality. Even if you love it, you'll hate the driving. It is frustrating and dangerous with massive variation in standards and mainly young locals intent on killing themselves and anyone who might get in their way. Ignorance and arrogance in equal deadly measure. Alcohol is expensive but no more so than Scandinavia I'd imagine and actually cheap when you bundle it in with buffet offers in hotels. Then it becomes a good deal, especially with so many discounts available through either Emirates Platinum card or Emirates Pilots Club. these can offer anything from 10-50% off in restaurants, excluding weekends mainly. Weather is brutal in summer so outdoor activity from May through to end of September is very restrictive. Rest of year is generally good. Nice beaches with ongoing work to 'beautify' the coast and more facilities being added. Public transport improving all the time, metro (busy), tram, regular buses. Not sure how often CaptainChipotle uses them but they are efficient and cheap (far cheaper than London). Most importantly, Dubai is a safe city. You'll feel safe outside, anywhere and anytime, far more so than any other city I've been to except perhaps in Japan.
What about EK? It would take way too long to go into every detail but contrary to your post, the basics haven't really changed. Emirates is little different to any other airline out there and conditions are only ever going one way 'whilst' there is a surplus of supply. You will work hard. 3 of my last 4 years have resulted in over 900 hours pay. Rules will be pushed and interpreted to fit the program and admin issues can be tiresome. You'll deal with robots, morons and cultures so intent on furthering their own sycophantic desires that if they wobble their heads any more, they'll fall off. The Boeing will certainly take over the A330 type of flying but with 150 B777 in service /on order, there'll still be plenty of layovers too. The A380 is the flagship and will do mostly stateside and big destinations, such as London. However, make no mistake, this Company is a money making machine and will put the big bird where it makes the money. If India opens up it's seat quota, a 2 class 'Super' will be plying the route in no time. The B777X will be a game changer in fuel but will still be the workhorse. You will be on the Boeing when you start. Where you go after that is up to what policy is in force that particular day! Same for command, but 7 years is a ballpark.
What I do like is the variation of routes. Turnrounds, layovers, freighters (B777) and range of flying from simple 2 sector 40 minute Doha return to a 16hr San Francisco. 24hour layover to a 10 day cargo trip. As a single guy, this airline is difficult to beat for variety. As for accommodation, Meydan may well be the ultimate destination of all pilots but while you're single, an apartment will be offered. You'll be in this for some time I'd imagine. Unless you're prepared to rent some tiny grotto and save the allowance, do not rent. Always go with Company accommodation first, you can always change later if things get really bad. You can't do it in reverse. Better still, if you have some money to bring over, consider buying, even a small apartment. 200K euro would get you a 1 bed good area or 2 bed still in decent location. You'd get an additional $4000 a month to help pay that mortgage off. That's on top of the $8700 you'd be getting each month. (29,000 dhs basic plus 3000 flight pay). You do the maths. A single guy, clearing $12,700 a month....as a F/O. The Company will also put in 12% of your salary into the Provident fund each month, increasing to 15% after 10 years. You'll do 5%.
So, if it's for financial improvement, it's a no brainer, especially if you're single. However, don't make this move just for the money. It's a lifestyle change here and you become part of Dubai and EK. There is lot's to do here, it's what you make of it. Don't expect to come here and then wonder why you can't put on your boots and go for long trecks through fjords and mountains thick with pine trees. If you can accept that and the fact that there is an almost unlimited supply of pretty cabin crew prepared to keep you company, this may be the place for you.
Come out for a week and give it a try. You'll either love it or hate it!
Harry
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I'll sit on the fence on this, can see both the positive and negative. However, I do disagree with Glofish. If the ME is a bubble then god help the rest of the industry. While the US may be seeing signs of a recovery, I wouldn't be betting my mortgage on it. Despite legislation and unions, pilots on regional jets still earn $19,000 per year.....before tax! I would not be surprised if we see another recession and it's back to square one. Europe is a mess, massive cutbacks and salaries slashed, Asia not much better.
The Gulf airlines are chasing the same market but it's a market that's expanding hugely, transporting people mainly from India to all their corner shops around the globe. As their families grow, so will the market.
If it crashes here, the rest of the World will already be F£@D
The Gulf airlines are chasing the same market but it's a market that's expanding hugely, transporting people mainly from India to all their corner shops around the globe. As their families grow, so will the market.
If it crashes here, the rest of the World will already be F£@D
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One other thing to consider regarding accommodation is that, as a single person you'll get an apartment, not a villa. So the issues with Meydan won't apply to you for some time yet. From casual observation most if not all of the apartments are located in pretty decent areas and I haven't heard any complaints about them.
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If I were you, I would rather go to the airline down the road, at least you'll have the option of working one off, one on in the future. It may not seem attractive now but when you're burnt out, it'll be a welcome alternative for your health and lifestyle.
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The appartment they gave me was cool. Zabeel tower. 3 bedrooms, 3 bathes. Gym and pool on top of the car park. I still miss that appartment and the girls who followed me home from Sahara tower. But I married one of them, bought in the ranches ten years ago and that was not a bad decision. After all, EK keeps paying my mortgage.
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Could you guys at EK give me some more details about the provided apartments offered...how do they look like, where in Dubai are they, how is the surrounding, infrastructure, people living there.
And how many nights one can expect to stay at Dubai a month - guess about 8-10?
Thanks
And how many nights one can expect to stay at Dubai a month - guess about 8-10?
Thanks
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A couple other points to ponder:
If you are expecting to upgrade in 7 to 10 years, make sure that you make absolutely NO mistakes.....and I do mean NONE. Some recent reasons for command delays that I have heard:
-If you fail a PPC within a couple of years they will delay your command.
-If you repeat items during your PPC (the training portion) they will delay your command even though its TRAINING.
-If your documents accidentally fall out of their holder on the overnight and you call to inform them, they will delay your command.
-If the other guy screws up and you do everything properly by calling for a go around...2 times in a row...they will delay your command.
-If you oversleep for one of the 91 hours of fatiguing trips that you have in a month....they will delay your command.
and there is nothing you can say or do about it except bend over and grab your ankles.
Meanwhile......the company has a history of hiring DEC's with no knowledge of their previous training records or work ethic and they put them directly into training without the same stupid review that you have to go through.
If you are expecting to upgrade in 7 to 10 years, make sure that you make absolutely NO mistakes.....and I do mean NONE. Some recent reasons for command delays that I have heard:
-If you fail a PPC within a couple of years they will delay your command.
-If you repeat items during your PPC (the training portion) they will delay your command even though its TRAINING.
-If your documents accidentally fall out of their holder on the overnight and you call to inform them, they will delay your command.
-If the other guy screws up and you do everything properly by calling for a go around...2 times in a row...they will delay your command.
-If you oversleep for one of the 91 hours of fatiguing trips that you have in a month....they will delay your command.
and there is nothing you can say or do about it except bend over and grab your ankles.
Meanwhile......the company has a history of hiring DEC's with no knowledge of their previous training records or work ethic and they put them directly into training without the same stupid review that you have to go through.
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A group of guys I spoke with recently said it best regarding EK and training:
It's not a good feeling to have to be checked every 6 months and have to worry about who you have for the check, what kind of mood they are in, and if they have totally been converted to an EK management slave. There are some good guys and the percentage is going up but the majority of EK TRE's still succumb to management and bow down as slaves rather than remembering that they are still pilots as well.
For example, if you screw up on minor procedural issues there will be no assistance to correct the problem first as gentlemen first with no report of the issue to the company....it will always be written in your report so that management knows everything about you and can bend you over as they see fit. The TRE's seem to think that their minor comments don't make any difference as to a guys future with EK...and maybe they don't....until something bigger happens or you go to upgrade.
The big thing is that most EK TRE's seem to forget that they see this stuff every day....most of us line guys see and practice this stuff for real every 6 months.
It's not a good feeling to have to be checked every 6 months and have to worry about who you have for the check, what kind of mood they are in, and if they have totally been converted to an EK management slave. There are some good guys and the percentage is going up but the majority of EK TRE's still succumb to management and bow down as slaves rather than remembering that they are still pilots as well.
For example, if you screw up on minor procedural issues there will be no assistance to correct the problem first as gentlemen first with no report of the issue to the company....it will always be written in your report so that management knows everything about you and can bend you over as they see fit. The TRE's seem to think that their minor comments don't make any difference as to a guys future with EK...and maybe they don't....until something bigger happens or you go to upgrade.
The big thing is that most EK TRE's seem to forget that they see this stuff every day....most of us line guys see and practice this stuff for real every 6 months.
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It's a shame to have to say this, but...
Take what you hear from the 777 guys with a grain of salt (re. the training department)
Well written post mr. Harry. Very good indeed!
BOF
Take what you hear from the 777 guys with a grain of salt (re. the training department)
Well written post mr. Harry. Very good indeed!
BOF