EK DEFO A380 requirements
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I'm always reading on here about the better widebody jobs elsewhere. The only problem is that nobody cares to name them. Please could we be enlightened? In the list, strike out China, generally, and Qatar Airways, specifically. I have friends in both places, and have visited both. No thanks/no way! I'm also not keen on Saudi either.
So, there is one for me that is a whisker ahead of EK, and that's the neighbour down the road, purely on time to command. Apart from that, I'm out. No US passport or green card either. Am genuinely keen to know...
So, there is one for me that is a whisker ahead of EK, and that's the neighbour down the road, purely on time to command. Apart from that, I'm out. No US passport or green card either. Am genuinely keen to know...
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The better wide-body jobs mentioned are out there. AF,LH,BA and the US majors, maybe QF,CX and SQ as well for some. But you only come to work here because you can't work there. The Gulf airlines are big players now but they are only ever going to get the overflow from the real airlines. Although there has been a slight but steady trickle from BA to this area.
We do the same job but without representation. For better or worse but mostly worse.
We do the same job but without representation. For better or worse but mostly worse.
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I take your point, but you're not going to leave EK for one of those? Not unless you're under 30, perhaps 25, and have an overwhelming desire to go home. If you want to go home, then there is virtually no argument that would sway someone's desire to be at home, and fair enough. However, if you're comfortable being an expat, don't fancy 15+ years to a widebody command, then where else is there?
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Sorry gents, going to balance a few points here.
Firstly training. This, in my opinion, has improved slowly but surely over the last 10 years, particularly since MM arrived. There has been more of a 'training' culture rather than checking and poor instructors/examiners have been removed. If you do your work and can fly a plane, you pass the sim. To balance that, there are a few mavericks still, the worst ironically being in standards. I'm also no great fan of the head of Boeing training. His previous incumbent was far more approachable and fair. I also worry for the future somewhat with the VP of training. When he was head of this department years ago, he left his mark by cutting his budget year on year, the focus being on saving money rather than quality of training. If he supersedes MM, things will definitely deteriorate.
Second point is salary. By all means not the overriding factor for job satisfaction, far from it but we are relatively well compensated. We have to work for that most definitely but compared to other wide body airline packages, it's a bloody good take home. Here's example of 9 year line Captain as an average, no training;
Basic 45,000
housing 16,000
Flight pay 4,000 (averaged out over 1 year)
That comes in at 65,000 per month. I've not include education as it's free in some countries but for some here that send up to three children to boarding schools, it can be a massive help. There's also 12-15% Company contribution not included. Some aspects of Dubai can be expensive. others less so. Petrol is 1/5 the price compared to UK. With transport provided, you can also manage easily on 1 car. It depends what your lifestyle demands.
So, 65,000 dirhams or $17,800 per month. £10,800. If you're in Company provided then you've no bills and nothing to pay so it's swings and roundabouts. After tax, there are very few airlines out there offering such an accessible package. That's why guys stay. They do the math and it doesn't make sense. Fleet type does, however, make a significant difference in QOL issues.
Finally, I also dispute the fart and you're fired attitude, especially since JA has replaced the talking horse. There have been no unreasonable dismissals in recent times. Those that have gone have been asked to resign. They were given a choice but they accepted it because they knew they were in the wrong. If you go to work, do it professionally and to your best ability, you'll be left alone. 95% of guys manage to do that every flight.
So, in essence, perfect it isn't but as an overall package it's pretty good. My concern, though, is shared regarding the future. The problem is that individuals, such as TCAS, has his own agenda. It's a frigging big package he's on and he's not likely to surrender it over moral principles. Without a union, we are slave to the decisions of a few and it's very much a take it or leave it scenario. The hour requirement will, in my opinion, continue to decrease. This will, in effect, keep the supply and demand in balance. My biggest gripe is that our flight ops is driven by Service Delivery. Briefing crew STD - 83 minutes is now the norm, crew are rushing or missing important information to facilitate bus departure at -75. That's 15 minutes before we officially report!
I'll bet next years pay rise that the -75 becomes the new norm after we get back to 2 runway operations. That's when TCAS needs to stand up and support his own department, not Service Delivery!
Harry
Firstly training. This, in my opinion, has improved slowly but surely over the last 10 years, particularly since MM arrived. There has been more of a 'training' culture rather than checking and poor instructors/examiners have been removed. If you do your work and can fly a plane, you pass the sim. To balance that, there are a few mavericks still, the worst ironically being in standards. I'm also no great fan of the head of Boeing training. His previous incumbent was far more approachable and fair. I also worry for the future somewhat with the VP of training. When he was head of this department years ago, he left his mark by cutting his budget year on year, the focus being on saving money rather than quality of training. If he supersedes MM, things will definitely deteriorate.
Second point is salary. By all means not the overriding factor for job satisfaction, far from it but we are relatively well compensated. We have to work for that most definitely but compared to other wide body airline packages, it's a bloody good take home. Here's example of 9 year line Captain as an average, no training;
Basic 45,000
housing 16,000
Flight pay 4,000 (averaged out over 1 year)
That comes in at 65,000 per month. I've not include education as it's free in some countries but for some here that send up to three children to boarding schools, it can be a massive help. There's also 12-15% Company contribution not included. Some aspects of Dubai can be expensive. others less so. Petrol is 1/5 the price compared to UK. With transport provided, you can also manage easily on 1 car. It depends what your lifestyle demands.
So, 65,000 dirhams or $17,800 per month. £10,800. If you're in Company provided then you've no bills and nothing to pay so it's swings and roundabouts. After tax, there are very few airlines out there offering such an accessible package. That's why guys stay. They do the math and it doesn't make sense. Fleet type does, however, make a significant difference in QOL issues.
Finally, I also dispute the fart and you're fired attitude, especially since JA has replaced the talking horse. There have been no unreasonable dismissals in recent times. Those that have gone have been asked to resign. They were given a choice but they accepted it because they knew they were in the wrong. If you go to work, do it professionally and to your best ability, you'll be left alone. 95% of guys manage to do that every flight.
So, in essence, perfect it isn't but as an overall package it's pretty good. My concern, though, is shared regarding the future. The problem is that individuals, such as TCAS, has his own agenda. It's a frigging big package he's on and he's not likely to surrender it over moral principles. Without a union, we are slave to the decisions of a few and it's very much a take it or leave it scenario. The hour requirement will, in my opinion, continue to decrease. This will, in effect, keep the supply and demand in balance. My biggest gripe is that our flight ops is driven by Service Delivery. Briefing crew STD - 83 minutes is now the norm, crew are rushing or missing important information to facilitate bus departure at -75. That's 15 minutes before we officially report!
I'll bet next years pay rise that the -75 becomes the new norm after we get back to 2 runway operations. That's when TCAS needs to stand up and support his own department, not Service Delivery!
Harry
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JM,
With all due respect, and I mean it sincerely, do you feel that anyone joining a legacy carrier today and the next few years will have to go through the hardships you did? It's purely a numbers game isn't it? I'm not trying to act like I know, because I don't, but on paper with all the retirements its possible (with my math) to be halfway up UAL's seniority list in 9 years if everyone who wants to work till 65 does.
UAL, DAL, AMR/US are all going to be retiring 500+ in the next few years. I would think with that kind of movement rsv and seniority accrual would come fast. Also the numbers are without expansion, and I doubt the airlines are going to shrink anymore IMHO.
I'd like to work at a company where I can build seniority, have work rules, and MINIMUM days off, not maximum days off.
CC
With all due respect, and I mean it sincerely, do you feel that anyone joining a legacy carrier today and the next few years will have to go through the hardships you did? It's purely a numbers game isn't it? I'm not trying to act like I know, because I don't, but on paper with all the retirements its possible (with my math) to be halfway up UAL's seniority list in 9 years if everyone who wants to work till 65 does.
UAL, DAL, AMR/US are all going to be retiring 500+ in the next few years. I would think with that kind of movement rsv and seniority accrual would come fast. Also the numbers are without expansion, and I doubt the airlines are going to shrink anymore IMHO.
I'd like to work at a company where I can build seniority, have work rules, and MINIMUM days off, not maximum days off.
CC
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JM,
With all due respect, and I mean it sincerely, do you feel that anyone joining a legacy carrier today and the next few years will have to go through the hardships you did? It's purely a numbers game isn't it? I'm not trying to act like I know, because I don't, but on paper with all the retirements its possible (with my math) to be halfway up UAL's seniority list in 9 years if everyone who wants to work till 65 does.
UAL, DAL, AMR/US are all going to be retiring 500+ in the next few years. I would think with that kind of movement rsv and seniority accrual would come fast. Also the numbers are without expansion, and I doubt the airlines are going to shrink anymore IMHO.
I'd like to work at a company where I can build seniority, have work rules, and MINIMUM days off, not maximum days off.
CC
With all due respect, and I mean it sincerely, do you feel that anyone joining a legacy carrier today and the next few years will have to go through the hardships you did? It's purely a numbers game isn't it? I'm not trying to act like I know, because I don't, but on paper with all the retirements its possible (with my math) to be halfway up UAL's seniority list in 9 years if everyone who wants to work till 65 does.
UAL, DAL, AMR/US are all going to be retiring 500+ in the next few years. I would think with that kind of movement rsv and seniority accrual would come fast. Also the numbers are without expansion, and I doubt the airlines are going to shrink anymore IMHO.
I'd like to work at a company where I can build seniority, have work rules, and MINIMUM days off, not maximum days off.
CC
The middle of our seniority list is populated with very senior NB FOs, junior NB CAs (75% range), and mid-range seniority WB FOs (right at 50%). That's where you'll be in decade if everything works out perfectly. I can see this move make sense for someone in their late 20s or early 30s if they really want to be back home and live in a junior domicile, but outside of that it makes no sense at all. The money is not better, and the schedules are not better either when you're junior. The NB FO and WB FO above probably have a good schedules, but they are not making anywhere near what an EK CA makes.
Where will you be living in the US? Because there is a good chance you will have to commute for many years or drive for about 2 hours like many of our NYC based pilots do. If you're in your early 40s, do you think you will ever be able to hold WB command at a US legacy? My guess would be no.
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The middle of our seniority list is populated with very senior NB FOs, junior NB CAs (75% range), and mid-range seniority WB FOs (right at 50%). That's where you'll be in decade if everything works out perfectly. I can see this move make sense for someone in their late 20s or early 30s if they really want to be back home and live in a junior domicile, but outside of that it makes no sense at all. The money is not better, and the schedules are not better either when you're junior. The NB FO and WB FO above probably have a good schedules, but they are not making anywhere near what an EK CA makes.
Where will you be living in the US? Because there is a good chance you will have to commute for many years or drive for about 2 hours like many of our NYC based pilots do. If you're in your early 40s, do you think you will ever be able to hold WB command at a US legacy? My guess would be no.
Where will you be living in the US? Because there is a good chance you will have to commute for many years or drive for about 2 hours like many of our NYC based pilots do. If you're in your early 40s, do you think you will ever be able to hold WB command at a US legacy? My guess would be no.
Perhaps just be happy with a narrowbody command. Get to live in your home country. Make reasonable benefits, have protection from the company if you make a mistake. Minimal time zone changes and you can say "been there done that when it comes to the international stuff. Don't need to do it again."
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The direct hire onto the 380 has been steady , 330 picked up lately, 777 slowed down might pick up in the new year or late this year. 320/330 /340 time required for the 380 , I think anything else is ok for 330/777. Have not heard the total planned for next year. Upgrades on the 330 by the sounds of things, steady upgrades on the 380, 777 not many this year( @60 total , already half done ,year end mar15).
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Gotta disagree with you Junior Man. Many US folks currently doing their time in the sand box would be very glad to be in your position as a legacy major airline captain at home in the US. Let's face it, you could have bypassed upgrade and sat in the right seat as a relatively senior NB/WB F/O pulling down close to what you're making now as a jr CA while preserving good QOL. The point I'm making is you have many options as a US major airline pilot while still having a much better QOL than what I'm hearing from my buds at EK.
Case in point, I am a 15 year AA F/O still at least 3-5 years from junior CA upgrade at other bases, probably 5-8 years away from CA upgrade here at home (DC.) However I am based at home driving 20-40mins to work, flying NB domestic 737 routes with a decent QOL. 16 days off, no red-eyes, no International BS, no jet lag, nothing. Just the easy Miami and Dallas out and backs, or west coast 3 day trips. Now, I could go and upgrade at first available opportunity and subject myself to the crappiest red eye trips on reserve, but why?? Sure id love to upgrade to CA soon but I'm not gonna go bid Miami or NY First available captain opportunity and miss out on my kids growing up: I'll do that when it gets to me here at home. No rush. Money and Captain glory isn't everything. Just giving you some perspective and reiterating the point that many folks in the Mideast would be glad to trade places with ya.
Regards,
73
Case in point, I am a 15 year AA F/O still at least 3-5 years from junior CA upgrade at other bases, probably 5-8 years away from CA upgrade here at home (DC.) However I am based at home driving 20-40mins to work, flying NB domestic 737 routes with a decent QOL. 16 days off, no red-eyes, no International BS, no jet lag, nothing. Just the easy Miami and Dallas out and backs, or west coast 3 day trips. Now, I could go and upgrade at first available opportunity and subject myself to the crappiest red eye trips on reserve, but why?? Sure id love to upgrade to CA soon but I'm not gonna go bid Miami or NY First available captain opportunity and miss out on my kids growing up: I'll do that when it gets to me here at home. No rush. Money and Captain glory isn't everything. Just giving you some perspective and reiterating the point that many folks in the Mideast would be glad to trade places with ya.
Regards,
73
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A new category of required experience.
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Including furlough and having your pension stolen. One or both are bound to happen at some stage.
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Not one US pilot has had their pension "stolen". All of them have voted to give them up for whatever reason.
I have to agree that this is the best time in recent memory to be a US pilot.
Contrary to what junior man says being a pilot at a US legacy is one of the best jobs in the world.
I have to agree that this is the best time in recent memory to be a US pilot.
Contrary to what junior man says being a pilot at a US legacy is one of the best jobs in the world.
