Radio Discipline
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Getting Austro-naughts in a tizzy is so easy and fun. I don't know why I find so much entertainment in it. Maybe EK isn't working me hard enough and I have too much time on my hands.
Thank you Daniel Bernoulli, saving the company money is not the definition of AAAIRMANSHIP, I know. Not sure if you interpreted my bit of sarcasm. Taking extra risk with no reward is insane
ie. taking less fuel than OFP to make the mission work.
Thank you Daniel Bernoulli, saving the company money is not the definition of AAAIRMANSHIP, I know. Not sure if you interpreted my bit of sarcasm. Taking extra risk with no reward is insane
ie. taking less fuel than OFP to make the mission work.
Pilotday,
Less looking at blokes nipples and a bit more work with that OMA. 8.3.0.8.8.1
The don
PS. In the hold you need to get down as you are vertically separated only. On the arrival, you will not get lower than 8000' until over the departure traffic, and are distance separated. But what does this have to do with not listening out on the radio?
Less looking at blokes nipples and a bit more work with that OMA. 8.3.0.8.8.1
The don
PS. In the hold you need to get down as you are vertically separated only. On the arrival, you will not get lower than 8000' until over the departure traffic, and are distance separated. But what does this have to do with not listening out on the radio?
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Getting Austro-naughts in a tizzy is so easy and fun. I don't know why I find so much entertainment in it. Maybe EK isn't working me hard enough and I have too much time on my hands.
Sorry Don, couldn't resist..
That chap in Iran does get quite irate. I did enjoy him telling an unknown aircraft that he 'won't act responsibly towards them'
Just a couple of weeks ago a couple of ladies were chatting away with many protests from other stations for them to stfu. One of the gals was obviously not the sharpest and during the exchange was given a freq change on the area freq but responded on 121.5 instead identifying the company too all. Not EK btw.
Just a couple of weeks ago a couple of ladies were chatting away with many protests from other stations for them to stfu. One of the gals was obviously not the sharpest and during the exchange was given a freq change on the area freq but responded on 121.5 instead identifying the company too all. Not EK btw.
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This is SO SAD... 
What happened to Pilots & ATCs getting together for a regular p!ss-up? We all knew each other and next day, direct to wherever you wanted at high speed.
What happened to Pilots & ATCs getting together for a regular p!ss-up? We all knew each other and next day, direct to wherever you wanted at high speed.
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To Airtaxidriver:
I do not think your effort will be appreciated by ATC. Even at 500 ft/min, your level is staying occupied too long. Common sense obviously left the scene again.
I do not think your effort will be appreciated by ATC. Even at 500 ft/min, your level is staying occupied too long. Common sense obviously left the scene again.
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Is there any common sens to be at 8000ft 120nm away? or your talking about YOUR common sens?
Am using mini V/S till reaching my flight path... unless being ask by the controller to increase the rate of descent.
Are you afraid about the CDA practice? (less noise, less fuel burnt, more efficient...)
Am using mini V/S till reaching my flight path... unless being ask by the controller to increase the rate of descent.
Are you afraid about the CDA practice? (less noise, less fuel burnt, more efficient...)
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Hey all,
cool the jets here for a second, back to BASICS !!
and to all those trigger happy posters out there, I am NOT trying to teach people to suck eggs here BUT:
(and to be fair to the pilot who is trying to achieve an efficient CDA)
lets talk about what is legal and what is allowed!
--------------------
PUT VERY SIMPLY !!!
--------------------
* in a busy TMA in the HOLD ! min ROD 1000fpm is what is expected, SIMPLE !
* in a busy TMA (or any TMA for that matter) and on the published STAR
* If you doubt Point 2, check ICAO regulations !
(ALSO: if one is too lazy to check, then you just have to trust me on point 2) (Of course, mature professional feedback welcome, but please to avoid massive drift; no pilot technique comments plz - we are talking about the legality of pilot descending at minimum 500fpm in a TMA, when flying a CDA)
AS LONG AS POINT 1 IS SATISFIED, POINT 2 is ALLOWED !
* If the ATC controller (who no doubt is extremely busy in a TMA like Dubai) is hassling a pilot for not descending quick enough; EITHER
1) Give the Pilot a specified ROD
i will say it again.....
If the airport wishes a plane to be right downwind at 3000aal , so bit it, PUBLISH IT,
Otherwise, the pilots can descend how he/she likes (of course as long as it is safe)
notwithstanding any specific request from the ATC controller
(500fpm minimum ROD IS allowed and perfectly legal !!)
And to those skippers who use the FO like an Autopilot !
If as a Captain, you are uncomfortable turning base at 4,500 aal approx at an airport at Sea Level in ISA conditions, well thats not the First Officers issue, ok, you might fly it differently, but perhaps consider the following:
the FO might be well experienced in this regard and have NO issue with this configuration and profile. Granted if its getting silly and way high on approach, intervene, but let the FO please fly the aircraft!!!
I might be just pissing into the wind, but a reminder of the legal requirements as mentioned above, might be useful to this debate !
cool the jets here for a second, back to BASICS !!
and to all those trigger happy posters out there, I am NOT trying to teach people to suck eggs here BUT:
(and to be fair to the pilot who is trying to achieve an efficient CDA)
lets talk about what is legal and what is allowed!
--------------------
PUT VERY SIMPLY !!!
--------------------
* in a busy TMA in the HOLD ! min ROD 1000fpm is what is expected, SIMPLE !
* in a busy TMA (or any TMA for that matter) and on the published STAR
Pilot MUST:
Point 1. adhere to all Speed and Vertical constraints on the Arrival
Point 1. adhere to all Speed and Vertical constraints on the Arrival
Pilot CAN
Point 2. fly min rate of descent 500 fpm is allowed as long as Point 1 is satisfied in full
NOTES:Point 2. fly min rate of descent 500 fpm is allowed as long as Point 1 is satisfied in full
* If you doubt Point 2, check ICAO regulations !
(ALSO: if one is too lazy to check, then you just have to trust me on point 2) (Of course, mature professional feedback welcome, but please to avoid massive drift; no pilot technique comments plz - we are talking about the legality of pilot descending at minimum 500fpm in a TMA, when flying a CDA)
AS LONG AS POINT 1 IS SATISFIED, POINT 2 is ALLOWED !
* If the ATC controller (who no doubt is extremely busy in a TMA like Dubai) is hassling a pilot for not descending quick enough; EITHER
1) Give the Pilot a specified ROD
Also on vectors with no specified ROD, the pilot can descend at 500fpm should he/she wish !
2) Query the Design of the Published Arrival So long as the pilot is STILL adhering to ALL of the constraints of the STAR, the pilots job is done ! it is the design of the STAR at fault and not the pilot or ATC controller !
If the airport wishes a plane to be right downwind at 3000aal , so bit it, PUBLISH IT, i will say it again.....
If the airport wishes a plane to be right downwind at 3000aal , so bit it, PUBLISH IT,
Otherwise, the pilots can descend how he/she likes (of course as long as it is safe)
notwithstanding any specific request from the ATC controller
(500fpm minimum ROD IS allowed and perfectly legal !!)
And to those skippers who use the FO like an Autopilot !
If as a Captain, you are uncomfortable turning base at 4,500 aal approx at an airport at Sea Level in ISA conditions, well thats not the First Officers issue, ok, you might fly it differently, but perhaps consider the following:
the FO might be well experienced in this regard and have NO issue with this configuration and profile. Granted if its getting silly and way high on approach, intervene, but let the FO please fly the aircraft!!!
I might be just pissing into the wind, but a reminder of the legal requirements as mentioned above, might be useful to this debate !
Last edited by HighLow; 9th Jun 2014 at 06:27. Reason: Spelling - Typo
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To Airtaxidriver:
Aircraft separation is the prerogative of ATC, and has nothing to do with your CDA, FMC or fuel conservation. Although it would be nice to have those things match up, it is not guaranteed. Get your priorities straight.
You are probably one of the gentlemen asking for descent, an upon getting clearance, just delay the descent until your magic TOD point arrives.
Aircraft separation is the prerogative of ATC, and has nothing to do with your CDA, FMC or fuel conservation. Although it would be nice to have those things match up, it is not guaranteed. Get your priorities straight.
You are probably one of the gentlemen asking for descent, an upon getting clearance, just delay the descent until your magic TOD point arrives.
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@ latetonite: sorry, I am not requesting descent until i need to descend!
Aircraft separation as you mention is the ATC's prerogative, until they do not give me a mini ROD to follow, I take my own...
@HighLow
Where did you get those min ROD from? ICAO? you should maybe read those text, there is no such minimum existing, and except FAA, Australia and UK (last 1500ft)...
Trusting you? right, give the reference of text your naming...
In the other states, you are allowed to use 100ftm till the ATC ask you another rate for their separation.
So if you would like to remind about the legal requirement, you should at least know them...
Aircraft separation as you mention is the ATC's prerogative, until they do not give me a mini ROD to follow, I take my own...
@HighLow
Where did you get those min ROD from? ICAO? you should maybe read those text, there is no such minimum existing, and except FAA, Australia and UK (last 1500ft)...
Trusting you? right, give the reference of text your naming...
In the other states, you are allowed to use 100ftm till the ATC ask you another rate for their separation.
So if you would like to remind about the legal requirement, you should at least know them...
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AirTaxiDriver,
consider the following remarks:
* 500fpm is the LEGAL minimum rate of descent,
* 500fpm rate of descent is "perfectly legal" (assuming one is adhering to all vertical and speed constraints published on an Arrival)
QUESTION: can you spot the difference between these two remarks?
I was discussing what is legal, YES, but I did not mention that 500feet per minute is the LEGAL minimum; there is a BIG difference.
I referred in my last post to check ICAO regulations as to whether 500fpm is allowed or not; there is no mention in ICAO Doc 8168 of any minimum, therefore IT IS allowed; maybe you misunderstood what I was saying, or I did not make my point as clearly as I could have, anyways;
@AirTaxiDriver
By all means, if you want to descend at 100fpm , off you go ! fill your boots!
Consider the following however;
Initial Descent to the Airport
you are certainly not making any friends with your fellow pilots dawdling at -100fpm, whilst others are commencing their initial descent to an airport, and there you are blocking ALL the levels, and creating headaches for the all concerned, pilots and controllers.
and as mentioned by another poster:
a pilot requests descent, controller gives clearance
pilot descends, EASY
instead of (what seems an increasing occurance of) whereby
a pilot requests descent, controller gives descent clearance
pilot waits another 20 miles before starting down....
(EM NO ! you are supposed to start down once you receive the clearance.
AND you guys and girls know who you are, so stop this ridiculous practice).
DESCEND WHEN READY... in that case stay up there at your cruising level till the HOLD I don't care, but if a controller gives u a descent clearance, DESCEND !!
Holding
@AirTaxiDriver, you mention "in other states, you are allowed to use 100ftm till the ATC ask you another rate for their separation." really? good luck with that one ! the controller will not be ASKING (as you put it) for another rate, he will be DEMANDING another rate (at least 1000fpm)
You see, that is the expectation from your fellow professionals;
rather than wait until prompted, give the controller what he/she expects..
frees up the frequency too! 1 call instead of 2 (an added bonus)
Vectors (Downwind / Base / Final)
From having a chat with Approach controllers over the years, I understand there is an expectation that a pilot would descend at least 500fpm when been vectored, (once out of any holding pattern) and also (for sure I am open to correction on this one), 300fpm is acceptable below 6000ft aal.
@AirTaxiDriver your "100ftm" as you put it, I dont think would really win you any friends here ! but hey.... you wait for controller to give you a new rate...
consider the following remarks:
* 500fpm is the LEGAL minimum rate of descent,
* 500fpm rate of descent is "perfectly legal" (assuming one is adhering to all vertical and speed constraints published on an Arrival)
QUESTION: can you spot the difference between these two remarks?
I was discussing what is legal, YES, but I did not mention that 500feet per minute is the LEGAL minimum; there is a BIG difference.
I referred in my last post to check ICAO regulations as to whether 500fpm is allowed or not; there is no mention in ICAO Doc 8168 of any minimum, therefore IT IS allowed; maybe you misunderstood what I was saying, or I did not make my point as clearly as I could have, anyways;
@AirTaxiDriver
By all means, if you want to descend at 100fpm , off you go ! fill your boots!
Consider the following however;
Initial Descent to the Airport
you are certainly not making any friends with your fellow pilots dawdling at -100fpm, whilst others are commencing their initial descent to an airport, and there you are blocking ALL the levels, and creating headaches for the all concerned, pilots and controllers.
and as mentioned by another poster:
a pilot requests descent, controller gives clearance
pilot descends, EASY
instead of (what seems an increasing occurance of) whereby
a pilot requests descent, controller gives descent clearance
pilot waits another 20 miles before starting down....
(EM NO ! you are supposed to start down once you receive the clearance.
AND you guys and girls know who you are, so stop this ridiculous practice).
DESCEND WHEN READY... in that case stay up there at your cruising level till the HOLD I don't care, but if a controller gives u a descent clearance, DESCEND !!
Holding
@AirTaxiDriver, you mention "in other states, you are allowed to use 100ftm till the ATC ask you another rate for their separation." really? good luck with that one ! the controller will not be ASKING (as you put it) for another rate, he will be DEMANDING another rate (at least 1000fpm)
You see, that is the expectation from your fellow professionals;
rather than wait until prompted, give the controller what he/she expects..
frees up the frequency too! 1 call instead of 2 (an added bonus)
Vectors (Downwind / Base / Final)
From having a chat with Approach controllers over the years, I understand there is an expectation that a pilot would descend at least 500fpm when been vectored, (once out of any holding pattern) and also (for sure I am open to correction on this one), 300fpm is acceptable below 6000ft aal.
@AirTaxiDriver your "100ftm" as you put it, I dont think would really win you any friends here ! but hey.... you wait for controller to give you a new rate...
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@ HighLow:
I agree, I have misread your comment, and I thought you were saying the mini legal is 500fpm, as a lot of pilots think it is...
If my initial decent is given 50 NM away from my TOD, I do use 100 fpm, IF the ATC call me back to increase, I do, but most of the time they don't, they just want me to leave this level for a 1000 ft separation with an incoming traffic...
DO NOT create law or expectations that doesn't exist, if the ATC want you at a minimum ROD, he will tell you... so why not managing your descent?
Agree, that doesn't mean with a mini given rate...
i
Agin, I agree!
Again, I agree, i have never said the opposite, this is a rule!
WRONG, as there is no such rule for minimum ROD (except US, Australia and UK (last 1500ft)), ATC is not expecting you at a mini 1000 or 500 fpm or else, I have used many, many, many times 100fpm to descend if I am far from my TOD, they barely question me. Times to times in Italie to pass over the traffic into France, or to Switzerland, or in Germany they pass you a clearance to descent with a mini ROD... other than that... no problem at all! Should you try!?
He expects nothing, as there is no rules... again, do not create rules that doesn't exist...
First time ever I can read that!!!
Where it is written a controller is expecting you to descent at 500fpm, 400fpm, 300fpm? why not 675fpm as per a controller at 6am, and 425fpm as per another one at 6pm...
If they want you to take a mini ROD, they will tell you.
Or it will be either:
- written in an AIP as per a local rule, shown in an AOI,
- written in the local regulation text (e.g.: FAR) reflected in the LIDO GEN...
Why do you want people to expect you doing something not written, this is stupid, one controller would expect you to descent at one rate, where another would expect you to descent at double this rate...
Stop creating rules and expectations that do not exist for god sake!
I agree, I have misread your comment, and I thought you were saying the mini legal is 500fpm, as a lot of pilots think it is...
Initial Descent to the Airport
you are certainly not making any friends with your fellow pilots dawdling at -100fpm, whilst others are commencing their initial descent to an airport, and there you are blocking ALL the levels, and creating headaches for the all concerned, pilots and controllers.
you are certainly not making any friends with your fellow pilots dawdling at -100fpm, whilst others are commencing their initial descent to an airport, and there you are blocking ALL the levels, and creating headaches for the all concerned, pilots and controllers.
DO NOT create law or expectations that doesn't exist, if the ATC want you at a minimum ROD, he will tell you... so why not managing your descent?
and as mentioned by another poster:
a pilot requests descent, controller gives clearance
pilot descends, EASY
a pilot requests descent, controller gives clearance
pilot descends, EASY
i
nstead of (what seems an increasing occurance of) whereby
a pilot requests descent, controller gives descent clearance
pilot waits another 20 miles before starting down....
(EM NO ! you are supposed to start down once you receive the clearance.
AND you guys and girls know who you are, so stop this ridiculous practice).
a pilot requests descent, controller gives descent clearance
pilot waits another 20 miles before starting down....
(EM NO ! you are supposed to start down once you receive the clearance.
AND you guys and girls know who you are, so stop this ridiculous practice).
DESCEND WHEN READY... in that case stay up there at your cruising level till the HOLD I don't care, but if a controller gives u a descent clearance, DESCEND !!
Holding
@AirTaxiDriver, you mention "in other states, you are allowed to use 100ftm till the ATC ask you another rate for their separation." really? good luck with that one ! the controller will not be ASKING (as you put it) for another rate, he will be DEMANDING another rate (at least 1000fpm)
@AirTaxiDriver, you mention "in other states, you are allowed to use 100ftm till the ATC ask you another rate for their separation." really? good luck with that one ! the controller will not be ASKING (as you put it) for another rate, he will be DEMANDING another rate (at least 1000fpm)
You see, that is the expectation from your fellow professionals;
rather than wait until prompted, give the controller what he/she expects..
frees up the frequency too! 1 call instead of 2 (an added bonus)
rather than wait until prompted, give the controller what he/she expects..
frees up the frequency too! 1 call instead of 2 (an added bonus)
Vectors (Downwind / Base / Final)
From having a chat with Approach controllers over the years, I understand there is an expectation that a pilot would descend at least 500fpm when been vectored, (once out of any holding pattern) and also (for sure I am open to correction on this one), 300fpm is acceptable below 6000ft aal.
From having a chat with Approach controllers over the years, I understand there is an expectation that a pilot would descend at least 500fpm when been vectored, (once out of any holding pattern) and also (for sure I am open to correction on this one), 300fpm is acceptable below 6000ft aal.
Where it is written a controller is expecting you to descent at 500fpm, 400fpm, 300fpm? why not 675fpm as per a controller at 6am, and 425fpm as per another one at 6pm...
If they want you to take a mini ROD, they will tell you.
Or it will be either:
- written in an AIP as per a local rule, shown in an AOI,
- written in the local regulation text (e.g.: FAR) reflected in the LIDO GEN...
Why do you want people to expect you doing something not written, this is stupid, one controller would expect you to descent at one rate, where another would expect you to descent at double this rate...
Stop creating rules and expectations that do not exist for god sake!
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Airmanship and not bickering is the way forward chaps. Your SA of other aircraft clearances as well as your own and ATC profile requirements/expectations should dictate the rates of descent. Particulalry at DXB where different styles abound.
To those on another thread who are arguing that they will fly a dive and drive as they wish as an act of defiance, not a CDA. Well good luck with that at 2000 feet behind a 380 on a CDA. First paragraph refers.
LIDO GEN COM s the companies reference for RT. Not any other. (local CAP notwithstanding).
An example of a local rule.
UK AIP:3.2.2.4 Minimum Rates of Climb and Descent
3.2.2.4.1 In order to ensure that controllers can accurately predict flight profiles to maintain standard vertical separation between aircraft,
pilots of aircraft commencing a climb or descent in accordance with an ATC Clearance should inform the controller if they
anticipate that their rate of climb or descent during the level change will be less than 500 ft per minute, or if at any time during
such a climb or descent their vertical speed is, in fact, less than 500 ft per minute.
3.2.2.4.2 This requirement applies to both the en-route phase of flight and to terminal holding above Transition Altitude.
Note: This is not a prohibition on the use of rates of climb or descent of less than 500 ft per minute where necessary to comply
with other operating requirements.
Further reading in AIP 1.7
Also from CDA guidance:
34.
A minimum rate of descent of 500 fpm is applicable for ATC
purposes for aircraft above the Transition Altitude following
STARs . Although this
requirement does not continue into the approach phase of
flight, some pilots have in the past continued to descend at a
higher rate than necessary. To avoid confusion the UK AIP now
clarifies that the 500 fpm minimum ROD requirement does not
apply below Transition Altitude.
And from the same guidance.:
‘Level flight’ is interpreted as any segment of flight having a
height change of not more than 50ft over a track distance of
2nm or more.
AN ICAO CDA includes 1.5 miles level flight, a UK one 2.5
Germany CRAR. Minumum ROD for CDA 300 fpm.
Now An example of Dubai expectation from the horses mouth. An extract from a meeting between us and them.
Minumum of 500fpm.
Speed +/_ 0Kts
Reduction 10kts / NM when being vectored.
I cant seem to insert the extract from the minutes here, but the speed control is now in the AIP if you care to look with the added caveat that non compliance will be reported to the authority. DL letter advised of this sometime in June 2011 I think.
There are too many Local variations to start a pissing contest. Fly according to where you are and whats required. Paragraph 1 refers.
To those on another thread who are arguing that they will fly a dive and drive as they wish as an act of defiance, not a CDA. Well good luck with that at 2000 feet behind a 380 on a CDA. First paragraph refers.
LIDO GEN COM s the companies reference for RT. Not any other. (local CAP notwithstanding).
An example of a local rule.
UK AIP:3.2.2.4 Minimum Rates of Climb and Descent
3.2.2.4.1 In order to ensure that controllers can accurately predict flight profiles to maintain standard vertical separation between aircraft,
pilots of aircraft commencing a climb or descent in accordance with an ATC Clearance should inform the controller if they
anticipate that their rate of climb or descent during the level change will be less than 500 ft per minute, or if at any time during
such a climb or descent their vertical speed is, in fact, less than 500 ft per minute.
3.2.2.4.2 This requirement applies to both the en-route phase of flight and to terminal holding above Transition Altitude.
Note: This is not a prohibition on the use of rates of climb or descent of less than 500 ft per minute where necessary to comply
with other operating requirements.
Further reading in AIP 1.7
Also from CDA guidance:
34.
A minimum rate of descent of 500 fpm is applicable for ATC
purposes for aircraft above the Transition Altitude following
STARs . Although this
requirement does not continue into the approach phase of
flight, some pilots have in the past continued to descend at a
higher rate than necessary. To avoid confusion the UK AIP now
clarifies that the 500 fpm minimum ROD requirement does not
apply below Transition Altitude.
And from the same guidance.:
‘Level flight’ is interpreted as any segment of flight having a
height change of not more than 50ft over a track distance of
2nm or more.
AN ICAO CDA includes 1.5 miles level flight, a UK one 2.5
Germany CRAR. Minumum ROD for CDA 300 fpm.
Now An example of Dubai expectation from the horses mouth. An extract from a meeting between us and them.
Minumum of 500fpm.
Speed +/_ 0Kts
Reduction 10kts / NM when being vectored.
I cant seem to insert the extract from the minutes here, but the speed control is now in the AIP if you care to look with the added caveat that non compliance will be reported to the authority. DL letter advised of this sometime in June 2011 I think.
There are too many Local variations to start a pissing contest. Fly according to where you are and whats required. Paragraph 1 refers.