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Radio Discipline

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Radio Discipline

Old 31st May 2014, 15:10
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Falcon Maaaattteeee, I hope your not taking the piss. Turtle; readback of a PDC is mandatory worldwide unless advised otherwise. DCL's however, are text only exchanges, nothing to do with the country, rather the format, refer OMC 3.2.2

On the topic of communications in Dubai;

1) Know the meaning of the instruction "Monitor"
2) On initial departure contact only call sign and altitude passing are required, on arrival the same as above with the addition of aircraft type (why do people announce the ATIS received?)
3) ATC; time to publish a note stating that all aircraft contacting DXB DIRECTOR should use Callsign only, so the poor controller doesn't have to keep issuing the instruction. Also maybe it'd be an idea to include the departure frequency with the clearance and specify an altitude to switch automatically to departures, that should help clear some congestion on tower?

Last edited by scandistralian; 31st May 2014 at 15:28.
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Old 31st May 2014, 15:28
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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FAA: see point 2/d/
[URL="http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0502.html"]

5-2-2. Pre-departure Clearance Procedures

a. Many airports in the National Airspace System are equipped with the Tower Data Link System (TDLS) that includes the Pre-departure Clearance (PDC) function. The PDC function automates the Clearance Delivery operations in the ATCT for participating users. The PDC function displays IFR clearances from the ARTCC to the ATCT. The Clearance Delivery controller in the ATCT can append local departure information and transmit the clearance via data link to participating airline/service provider computers. The airline/service provider will then deliver the clearance via the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) or a similar data link system or, for nondata link equipped aircraft, via a printer located at the departure gate. PDC reduces frequency congestion, controller workload and is intended to mitigate delivery/readback errors. Also, information from participating users indicates a reduction in pilot workload.

b. PDC is available only to participating aircraft that have subscribed to the service through an approved service provider.

c. Due to technical reasons, the following limitations currently exist in the PDC program:

1. Aircraft filing multiple flight plans are limited to one PDC clearance per departure airport within a 24-hour period. Additional clearances will be delivered verbally.

2. If the clearance is revised or modified prior to delivery, it will be rejected from PDC and the clearance will need to be delivered verbally.

d. No acknowledgment of receipt or readback is required for a PDC.

e. In all situations, the pilot is encouraged to contact clearance delivery if a question or concern exists regarding an automated clearance.



Then Australian:
ENR 1.1-5 paras 3.24 - 3.24.8 detail

PDC READBACK
After you get your PDC via ACARS the pilot is free to contact DEL (if it exists) or GND (if it doesn't) when ready to do so. The aircraft must read back the SID (and assigned transition if there is one), assigned runway, STAR (if given), any conditional requirements, squawk, and current parking stand. If done on GND it must be done prior to requesting push or taxi.
QF1 => Sydney Clearance Delivery, QF1, PDC Readback

DEL => QF1, Sydney Delivery

QF1=> DEL, RWY 34L RICHMOND2 DEP, RIC trans, 3324, Bay 31

DEL => QF1

The readback of the call sign by ATC is acknowledgement that the readback of the PDC is correct, this is all the pilot needs to be able to proceed. In the above example the aircraft could now call GND and ask for further clearances as per normal, there is no need to be told to call GND, you just do it. Note that assigned altitude is not one of the things that has to be read back.
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Old 31st May 2014, 15:35
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Scandi...calm down cobber, you WILL note in my post that I did indeed make reference to the PDC procedure as laid down in our truely awesome manuals, it was a sarcastic play on the Ozzie predilection for believing their own BS, but it was a reference none the less, apologies for not being clear.

I agree with your points 1-2-3, but there is always the exception..."DXB app EK XXX 77W passing 8500"
"EK XXX confirm you have Hotel QNH 1002?"
"Affirm we've got hotel, 1002"

Thats one more call than there need be IMHO.
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Old 31st May 2014, 15:36
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Pilot: Dubai Center, EK123 Heavy passing FL200 descending 10000 feet QNH 1002, Boeing 77W (or "Super" - Airbus 388), speed 300 kts, radar heading 260.

ATC: EK123 good day, say again passing level?

............


Everyone's making mistake, everyone's missing calls...
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Old 31st May 2014, 16:23
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Caynine,

I have to call bullish#t on your post. In 18 years of flying, much of it in North America, I have never heard a pilot say "comin' down" or "in a flash(wtf?)." Not even in Texas. For the most part NA pilots adapt to EK RT quite quick as stated by a controller on this thread.

What I find amusing is that the people who are so hung up on RT discipline generally stuff it up each and every time they fly to a US destination.

A few examples.

-You ARE NOT EXPECTED to report "established ILS XX." You are just adding to radio congestion when you make that unnecessary call! Particularly in extremely busy environments such as NY. They can tell you are established. Wonder how it would go over with Dubai approach if you gave them souls on board each time you checked in or what you had for dinner?

-On your first contact with a ground controller you are expected to let them know you have the current ATIS. in my experience most EK crews will miss that call or they will give it to Ramp who couldn't care less.

-A positive handover to the tower frequency while taxiing out for departure is not SOP in the US. Passing the last intersection you are expected to switch to Tower Frequency. I've noticed ground controllers just tell EK to switch to Tower because we miss that so often. Notice you don't hear ground telling Alaska or United to switch to tower.

-"Fully Ready." You are ready for pushback or you are not ready for pushback. "Fully Ready" is not a call that's made in NA.

-"Heavy" is used on the initial call to a center frequency and every call to Approach, Tower, and ground.

- At stations like Seattle where the PDC says "read back not required" read back is not required.

But this isn't rocket science and IMHO there is no need to get wrapped around the axle. If you are going to make RT your hot button issue then you stand to benefit from using proper RT in the US as well. Can't we all get along?
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Old 31st May 2014, 16:51
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My 2p

[QUOTE] the clarity over the bubin fix seems a bit dodgy at times actually... or is it just me? /QUOTE]

Not nearly as bad as the "Desdi triangle" - not really the spot where you need a radio black hole...

[QUOTE] Personally I find the US RT the most effective and efficient way of radio. /QUOTE]

Just because you can't be bothered doing things properly doesn't mean the rest of us will follow your lead!

[QUOTE] You ARE NOT EXPECTED to report "established ILS XX." You are just adding to radio congestion when you make that unnecessary call! Particularly in extremely busy environments such as NY /QUOTE]

Maybe so in NY but in Dubai (and much of the rest of the world), we are REQUIRED to ascertain that you are established before transfer to the tower. Any doubts as to why, just ask a Swiss(air) pilot. The fact that certain individuals don't bother to do so doesn't change the requirement.

As to attitudes, we do try but after the twentieth Air Arabia in a row asks for everything but the kitchen sink and/or each and every flight to/from the sub-continent insists on confirming each and every transmission it does become a bit wearing..... methinks they wouldn't make the same requests in other, busy, complex TMAs, so why here?
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Old 31st May 2014, 16:53
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My 2p

the clarity over the bubin fix seems a bit dodgy at times actually... or is it just me?
Not nearly as bad as the "Desdi triangle" - not really the spot where you need a radio black hole...

Personally I find the US RT the most effective and efficient way of radio.
Just because you can't be bothered doing things properly doesn't mean the rest of us will follow your lead!

You ARE NOT EXPECTED to report "established ILS XX." You are just adding to radio congestion when you make that unnecessary call! Particularly in extremely busy environments such as NY
Maybe so in NY but in Dubai (and much of the rest of the world), we are REQUIRED to ascertain that you are established before transfer to the tower. Any doubts as to why, just ask a Swiss(air) pilot. The fact that certain individuals don't bother to do so doesn't change the requirement.

As to attitudes, we do try but after the twentieth Air Arabia in a row asks for everything but the kitchen sink and/or each and every flight to/from the sub-continent insists on confirming each and every transmission it does become a bit wearing..... methinks they wouldn't make the same requests in other, busy, complex TMAs, so why here?
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Old 31st May 2014, 16:59
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Guy D'ageradar,

That's the point i'm trying to make! You are expected to follow the rules for the current area of operations. So when you are in Dubai or London for example you would call "established." Yet when you are in the USA you ARE NOT SUPPOSED to call "established." You are just tying up a busy frequency.

I don't think you realize your hypocrisy You seem to imply that it's ok to disregard the local rules because in the EU/Dubai that call is necessary. When flying into SEA, IAH, DFW, BOS, etc you are expected to follow the local rules.

I will direct you to your own statement "Just because you can't be bothered doing things properly doesn't mean the rest of us will follow your lead!" Take your own advice. When I'm in Dubai I follow proper comm procedures for Dubai and likewise for the US. Apparently you just do what you think is right.

So next time you fly to the USA do it PROPERLY! Most americans won't give you a hard time for screwing it up because they understand you don't have years of operating in that arena. But if you want to beat the RT drum then you might as well start practicing proper RT.
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Old 31st May 2014, 17:08
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EK related Pprune posts, where there are three different themes:

1. Australians are better than Americans (countries are changeable)
2. 777 is better than the 380 (aircraft are changeable)
3. We are professionals and deserve more money

Ladies and gentleman, until we stop squabbling like children over points 1 & 2, we won't get anyone to believe point 3.

Harry
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Old 31st May 2014, 17:20
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I agree 100% with Harry. The inferiority complex runs deep with certain individuals. I think the vast majority of pilots across all nationalities just want to finish the flight and go relax with a beer. It's not that hard.
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Old 31st May 2014, 17:23
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Take your own advice. When I'm in Dubai I follow proper comm procedures for Dubai and likewise for the US. Apparently you just do what you think is right.
Apologies if I was unclear - I am a Dubai ATCO - not much chance you'll find me flying around the Eastern Seaboard!

You seem to imply that it's ok to disregard the local rules because in the EU/Dubai that call is necessary.
No, I only work here so I adhere to the local requirements. Having worked in several very different countries, I can assure you that they are anything but standardised.

Apparently you just do what you think is right.
See above. As anyone who has worked in this part of the world for a significant period would confirm, I do what I am required to do by the local authorities and often more, as required by my own conscience.
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Old 31st May 2014, 17:26
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Harry,

Agreed, although I think we could find a much larger number of xenophobic examples!

Laker - your round ?
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Old 31st May 2014, 17:33
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Guy,

Where did I say anything xenophobic? I have no idea as to your nationality and I don't care. My post was directed at individuals (not nationalities) who slag others for procedure mistakes yet are totally unaware that they are operating against local procedures when flying to US destinations. There are a small but vocal group at EK (pilots) who get on their soap box but then operate outside the norm when in NA. Either you follow proper RT everywhere or you don't have good RT. Personally I could care less but I find the general hypocrisy within EK amusing.
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Old 31st May 2014, 17:39
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Laker...spot on.

f.
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Old 31st May 2014, 18:48
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Laker,

I was referring to point one of Harry's post - the intention was light-hearted and not intended as a personal slight to him or to you. Lighten up and have one of these beers

As to the individuals you talk of, they exist in both ATC and the cockpit - here and elsewhere - all we can do is set a good example.....
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Old 31st May 2014, 19:52
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I reckon most missed calls are from not wearing a headset, I now do for just that reason
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Old 31st May 2014, 20:53
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Most common reasons for missed calls

Not listening out
On the land line
Having a rant and loosing patience or temper
Throwing toys out of the cot and telling everyone to standby
Sitting in an ivory ( control ) tower
Now having lit the blue touch paper lets actually get together to sort this crap out.
SATCO ATCO CAPT and FOs all users why don't we contact our managers and get an open face to face forum. Please no more "we make the rules you follow them." If the procedures are not being followed then it may be that they either don't work or are impractical so why not get all interested parties involved in the process, or we could keep throwing accusations at each other. As previous said it works in other areas of the world why not here. Lets cooperate.
Rant over, but I am awaiting some emotional retribution.
DD
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Old 1st Jun 2014, 07:26
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Here's one that gets my vote:

"FULLY READY"

It's correctly stated as "READY" (for start or pushback or for takeoff etc)

READY is ready…period…why call when only partly ready? Don't get me going on the RT out there! Joined an airway over Turkey that continues over Iraq and into the Gulf last time up, and was surrounded by all three carriers from that region. By the time we got to top of descent I had a headache from the poor RT from ALL parties! Missed calls, incorrect read backs, challenges from crews to clearances (they didn't like ordered speed reductions and altitude changes to keep traffic moving) Impatient controllers…if it wasn't so embarrassing to the industry, it would have been funny. Sadly the levels of ICAO RT and language qualifications don't take into account where a pilot learns his RT…and despite the various carriers in the Gulf attempts to standardize this, it's a FAIL in my book!

Back to my morning coffee...
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Old 1st Jun 2014, 07:54
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My favourite is: " descend to FL---, RoD 1000'/min"
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Old 1st Jun 2014, 08:05
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My favourite is: " descend to FL---, RoD 1000'/min"
Or the poor Irish chap who has to give each 1000ft clearance in the hold followed by "level in a minute"
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